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The Gallerist» Forums » Rules

Subject: Buying a masterpiece which isn't one yet rss

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Stephan Wießler
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The first three slots in my gallery are occupied by pieces of art.

I buy a new piece of art which becomes a masterpiece only because I buy it.

Then I place it on the forth (masterpiece) spot.

Is this allowed (because in the moment when I buy it, it is not a masterpiece)?
 
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Vital Lacerda
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition and Máquina
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It is allowed.
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Stephan Wießler
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Thanks for the fast answer.

You really design the best games - masterpieces...
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David Grabiner
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The reason this is allowed is the order of actions, as specified in the book and the reference card. First you pay for the work, then you increase the artist's Fame, and then you place the work in your gallery. Therefore, you can use the increased Fame to make the artwork a masterpiece before you place the work. However, you cannot use the cash bonus for making the artist a celebrity to pay for the work.
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蓝魔
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newrev wrote:
It is allowed.


Interesting .. the/your rule book actually states

The Gallerist (p. 8) wrote:

The 4th slot in a Player's Gallery is only available if the player is currently exhibiting a Masterpiece (see p. 14)
 
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Donny Behne
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moocifer wrote:
newrev wrote:
It is allowed.


Interesting .. the/your rule book actually states

The Gallerist (p. 8) wrote:

The 4th slot in a Player's Gallery is only available if the player is currently exhibiting a Masterpiece (see p. 14)


Read the post above yours.
 
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蓝魔
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kelann08 wrote:
Read the post above yours.


I have, however that doesn't match up with the meaning of the word "currently".
 
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Michael Cabral
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The rules state when you exhibit it. That only happens after the other steps of paying and increasing the fame of the artist which would make it masterpiece before exhibition.
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蓝魔
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Cabralicus wrote:
The rules state when you exhibit it. That only happens after the other steps of paying and increasing the fame of the artist which would make it masterpiece before exhibition.


Irrelevant. The rule is about whether the 4th slot in the Gallery is available or not. Which it isn't unless you are already exhibiting a Masterpiece, not that it becomes available if you are about to exhibit a Masterpiece.
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Chris Spath
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I would think that the most relevant thing here is that Vital himself confirmed in a reply above that this is allowed.
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Michael Cabral
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moocifer wrote:
Cabralicus wrote:
The rules state when you exhibit it. That only happens after the other steps of paying and increasing the fame of the artist which would make it masterpiece before exhibition.


Irrelevant. The rule is about whether the 4th slot in the Gallery is available or not. Which it isn't unless you are already exhibiting a Masterpiece, not that it becomes available if you are about to exhibit a Masterpiece.


In fact it is quite relevant.

Rulebook Page 14 - Fame and Celebrity Status wrote:

There are two ways to increase an Artist’s Fame.
Buying a Work of Art from them, or
• Promoting them in the industry via the media.

When a Player buys a Work of Art, they track the
Sales Value of it by placing the corresponding
Signature token next to the Art value track of his
Player board. Whenever the Fame of an Artist
increases to the next Fame symbol, any Works
of Art increase in value, and Players adjust the
Signature tokens accordingly (see p. 8).

If an Artist’s Fame reaches 19, the Artist becomes
a Celebrity and retires.
A Player who takes an action that causes this to
happen performs the following steps:

1. Place a Celebrity tile over the Artist and gain 5
money.
2. Any exhibited Works of Art by the Artist
who has just become a Celebrity becomes a
Masterpiece.


• Players with at least one Masterpiece in their
Gallery are allowed to use the 4th slot. This
additional slot is only available as long as the
Player still has a Masterpiece in his Gallery.


Bolded added by me for emphasis. A player who takes an action that causes an artist's Fame to reach 19 like say buying a piece of art and using additional influence to make that artist a celebrity and thus unlocking the 4th slot since it is now a Masterpiece. You are stipulating that I cannot place it on the 4th slot because it wasn't a Masterpiece to begin with but that would be impossible afterwards since that artist retires after becoming a celebrity. Once I have bought and paid for the artwork and the artist gets the fame increase by the amount depicted on the artwork itself plus each Collector and my potential influence boost only THEN can the work of art be exhibited and since it is currently a Masterpiece upon exhibition it is available to be placed into the 4th slot.

Rulebook Page 8 - Buy & Exhibit a Work of Art wrote:

...
3. Pays money to the bank as follows:
i. If this is a commission, the price is the
Artist’s initial Fame;
ii. Otherwise, the price is the Artist’s current Fame.
• Influence may be used to get money - see p.13.
NOTE added by me: Work of Art currently NOT valid for 4th slot at this step

4. Increases the Artist’s Fame by the amount
depicted on the work, plus an additional 1 for
each Collector in the Player’s Gallery.
• Influence may be used to gain Fame - see p.13.
• See p. 14 for more details on Fame.
NOTE added by me: IF Artist's Fame increased to 19. Artist is now a Celebrity (Tile is placed) and retires; you gain 5 money. The Work of Art hasn't been exhibited yet but is now a Masterpiece. It is now valid to be placed in the 4th slot

5. Gains the tickets depicted on the Work of Art.

6. Moves the Work of Art to the leftmost empty
slot in the Player’s Gallery and turns it face
down (display side). If the Player has no
available slot, a Work of Art cannot be bought.
4th Art Gallery slot:
The 4th slot in a Player’s Gallery
is only available if the Player is
currently exhibiting a Masterpiece
(see p. 14)

NOTE added by me: Now that you have bought the art it is now time to exhibit it

7. Moves the Signature token from the Artist tile
(or for commissioned works, the commission
space) to the right of the Player’s Art value
track, matching the Artist’s current star rating
(star rating is found under or before the Fame
marker position).


I'm afraid the creator of the game himself has confirmed it. The rulebook also confirms it. Reference page 14 for a complete picture and take special care to the timing of the steps in buying and exhibiting a work of art which is crucial to attaining a Masterpiece and winning as The Master Gallerist in the Solitaire game where you need to acquire 3 Masterpieces.
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蓝魔
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Cabralicus wrote:
Numerous quotes / wall of text etc ..


All still totally irrelevant.

The Gallerist (p. 8) wrote:

The 4th slot in a Player's Gallery is only available if the player is currently exhibiting a Masterpiece (see p. 14)


Q: How can a newly bought piece of art, regardless of whether it is already a Masterpiece -OR- made a Masterpiece as a result of the acquisition process be considered to be the Masterpiece that is being currently exhibited ??

A: It cannot.

Yes Vital has confirmed that is allowed clearly meaning the rule on PAGE 8 needs to be addressed, hence why I originally questioned the decision, but everything else given as an explanation regarding timing is in fact incorrect.
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Y P
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moocifer wrote:
Cabralicus wrote:
Numerous quotes / wall of text etc ..


All still totally irrelevant.

The Gallerist (p. 8) wrote:

The 4th slot in a Player's Gallery is only available if the player is currently exhibiting a Masterpiece (see p. 14)


Q: How can a newly bought piece of art, regardless of whether it is already a Masterpiece -OR- made a Masterpiece as a result of the acquisition process be considered to be the Masterpiece that is being currently exhibited ??

A: It cannot.

Yes Vital has confirmed that is allowed clearly meaning the rule on PAGE 8 needs to be addressed, hence why I originally questioned the decision, but everything else given as an explanation regarding timing is in fact incorrect.

This is a peculiar hill you've picked to die on. Would it make sense to you if you think of the 4th spot as the Masterpiece spot? That is, exhibiting a masterpiece unlocks it and makes it available whether already in your gallery as one of the 1st 3 works or new as the 4th work.

Or does it already make sense and you're just quibbling about the wording?
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M.C.Crispy
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MentatYP wrote:
moocifer wrote:
Cabralicus wrote:
Numerous quotes / wall of text etc ..


All still totally irrelevant.

The Gallerist (p. 8) wrote:

The 4th slot in a Player's Gallery is only available if the player is currently exhibiting a Masterpiece (see p. 14)


Q: How can a newly bought piece of art, regardless of whether it is already a Masterpiece -OR- made a Masterpiece as a result of the acquisition process be considered to be the Masterpiece that is being currently exhibited ??

A: It cannot.

Yes Vital has confirmed that is allowed clearly meaning the rule on PAGE 8 needs to be addressed, hence why I originally questioned the decision, but everything else given as an explanation regarding timing is in fact incorrect.

This is a peculiar hill you've picked to die on. Would it make sense to you if you think of the 4th spot as the Masterpiece spot? That is, exhibiting a masterpiece unlocks it and makes it available whether already in your gallery as one of the 1st 3 works or new as the 4th work.

Or does it already make sense and you're just quibbling about the wording?
Oh come on! The rules as written do not lead to the Designer's "clarification", so in that regard I have sympathy with moocifer's PoV. Of course, he's flogging a dead horse 'cos the Designer says that it works the opposite way. That's fine, but it needs an FAQ/Erratum.
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Y P
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mccrispy wrote:
Oh come on! The rules as written do not lead to the Designer's "clarification", so in that regard I have sympathy with moocifer's PoV. Of course, he's flogging a dead horse 'cos the Designer says that it works the opposite way. That's fine, but it needs an FAQ/Erratum.

I have sympathy for the question as well--it's perfectly valid. But the insistence after the clarification is puzzling, to me anyway. The question is answered and the rule is now clear. If you feel it contradicts the rulebook (and I certainly can see how it might) then adjust the wording accordingly for yourself since the designer has given a final ruling on the actual rule. What else do you (general "you", not you in particular) need? A royal decree? A signed document? Just not sure what else is required here.

If there is an official or even unofficial FAQ, this question is a good candidate to be in it.
 
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蓝魔
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It is not uncommon for designers to make mistakes when answering rules questions about their own games particularly when:

1: they work on so many titles
2: they specialise in heavier Euros
3: The Gallerist is not his latest release (ie: might not be fresh in his memory)

Hence my initial query into the ruling contrary to what's in the actual rule book and the use of the English language.

However "dead horse flogged". I've lost interest now anyway ..
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Michael Cabral
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moocifer wrote:
Q: How can a newly bought piece of art, regardless of whether it is already a Masterpiece -OR- made a Masterpiece as a result of the acquisition process be considered to be the Masterpiece that is being currently exhibited ??

A: It cannot.

Yes Vital has confirmed that is allowed clearly meaning the rule on PAGE 8 needs to be addressed, hence why I originally questioned the decision, but everything else given as an explanation regarding timing is in fact incorrect.


Maybe the rule book should be rephrased to the 4th slot is reserved for Masterpieces. Can we agree on that? Maybe we should talk about the use of the English language then.

There are different present and past tenses.

Present simple: I exhibit art
Past simple: I exhibited art

Present continuous: I am exhibiting art
Past continuous: I was exhibiting art

Present perfect: I have exhibited art
Past perfect: I have exhibited art

Present perfect continuous: I have been exhibiting art
Past perfect continuous: I had been exhibiting art

Now let's see what the text says.
Quote:
The 4th slot in a Player’s Gallery is only available if the Player is currently exhibiting a Masterpiece (see p. 14)

Looks like Present continuous to me. Much like I am currently working and find a better paying job. I am still currently working. I am currently exhibiting 3 works of art and I am also currently exhibiting a new work of art in the 4th slot because it is currently a Masterpiece.

It isn't future tense either. It isn't "I will exhibit art, I will be exhibiting art, I will have exhibited art" nor the cumbersome "I will have been exhibiting art."

I think you are reading it in the present perfect tense. "I have exhibited works of art." It isn't incorrect in the sense that you can move art into the 4th slot that was already in your gallery, but your interpretation doesn't allow for a presently bought artwork to be placed in the 4th slot. Or maybe it was present perfect continuous, "I have been exhibiting a work of art that is now a Masterpiece."



To avoid your wall of text comment.

TL;DR

It is a statement in the present continuous tense. I am currently exhibiting 3 works of art and I am also currently exhibiting a new work of art in the 4th slot because it is currently a Masterpiece.
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Michael Cabral
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Maybe think of it this way:

We use the present continuous tense to talk about the present for something that is happening at the moment of speaking. Or for something which is new and contrasts with a previous state.

"I’m just leaving work. I’ll be home in an hour. Please be quiet. The children are sleeping."

Which would coincide with my examples above.

Source: https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/english-grammar/v...
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James Rucker

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My gaming group played The Gallerist for the first time last night and really enjoyed the experience (we're playing again soon).

Oddly enough this exact issue came up and collectively we agreed that the rules reading seemed to imply the 4th space was only "opened" if a masterpiece was already on display. Since we were in our last turn of play, the player jockeying for first looked up Vital's response and we changed our table ruling granting that player a final purchase which resulted in a 35 point boon for that player and the win (20 for the masterpiece and it helped him close out a curator card bonus). A bit upsetting at first because rules revisions mid-game are disruptive to each players' strategies.

However I feel in the long run, Vital's ruling promotes a positive play experience and I'm glad it's ruled that way - not being allowed to purchase the work would be a severe "feels bad" moment for that player, or any player in that position in the future.

As we play again, we will all be aware of this condition and play with that option in mind.

An argument for the display of a masterpiece in the 4th slot (that occurs as a result of the purchase - pushing the artist to celebrity status) seems to be clearly indicated on the player boards by the ropes around the 4th slot (the ropes around the artwork location seem to imply "masterpiece goes here!").
 
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Michael Cabral
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I'm glad that your gaming group applied the rule correctly. I am especially happy that the player did a masterclass move to push their way to victory!

I have argued in this thread that the words used to describe the rule is accurately using English grammar in the present continuous tense. It doesn't say, The 4th slot in a Player’s Gallery is only available if the Player has/is currently exhibited a Masterpiece. It says, The 4th slot in a Player’s Gallery is only available if the Player is currently exhibiting a Masterpiece (see p. 14)

The player aids are invaluable to following the correct order of the action. The game has been play tested specifically to follow that order which allows this very event to happen. To rule otherwise would make the game very restrictive and less dynamic.

I like your argument using the player board to indicate the intention of the 4th slot. It makes sense thematically. This spot is available for Masterpieces only. The Gallerist buys a new work of art so it must be amazing, it's from that artist we keep hearing about! It has to be a Masterpiece because she has so many collectors in her gallery and her influence in the Art world can't be ignored. The roped off area can finally be unveiled to show off this newly acquired Masterpiece.

If you think about the mechanics of the game in a thematic sense, the order or actions themselves make them much more intuitive to understand and remember.

 
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