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Subject: Locked Door- Scenario 2- how to play? rss

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David Ramsey
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How do you play Locked Door ("attach to the location in play with the most clues") in Scenario 2 if there are no locations with clues on them, either because all of the available clues have been discovered and/or because some locations have not been explored (turned over) yet?
What should I do with Locked Door in this situation? I've encountered this dilemma 3 times. Not knowing how to resolve the situation, I shuffled Locked Door back into the Encounter Deck and drew another card which I resolved instead.
Thoughts? So far this is the only confusing bit for me in a truly awesome game.
Many thanks,
David
 
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D H
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If there are no clues on any location when you draw Locked Door, they're all tied for the location with the most clues, because they all have 0. So put it anywhere you want (presumably a place you'll never want to go for clues again, like Central Arkham).
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J P
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I think, to go along with The Grim Rule, you should probably place it on an unrevealed location so that it's something you still have to deal with. But, it's your game. Personally, I could probably go either way depending on what mood I'm in.
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Christian Kløve
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DancingFool wrote:
I think, to go along with The Grim Rule, you should probably place it on an unrevealed location so that it's something you still have to deal with. But, it's your game. Personally, I could probably go either way depending on what mood I'm in.


I don't think the Grim Rule applies here - if all locations have 0 clues, they are tied. In cases of ties, the lead investigator decides where to put Locked Door.

The Grim Rule does not state to choose the worst possible outcome for investigators in all cases, only where rules contradict.
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J P
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Kløve wrote:
DancingFool wrote:
I think, to go along with The Grim Rule, you should probably place it on an unrevealed location so that it's something you still have to deal with. But, it's your game. Personally, I could probably go either way depending on what mood I'm in.


I don't think the Grim Rule applies here - if all locations have 0 clues, they are tied. In cases of ties, the lead investigator decides where to put Locked Door.

The Grim Rule does not state to choose the worst possible outcome for investigators in all cases, only where rules contradict.


Except if you have unrevealed locations, then not all locations have 0 clues. Some still may have clues, you just don't know how many clues they have yet.
 
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mplain
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Unrevealed locations have 0 clues. Both physically, and for the purpose of game rules and mechanics.
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Christian Kløve
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mplain wrote:
Unrevealed locations have 0 clues. Both physically, and for the purpose of game rules and mechanics.


I agree. If the Spawn text included 'the revealed location with the most clues', it would be a different situation.
 
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Mathias Heilmann
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And just to make it clear: the grim rule only applies if you don't know the actual rule and you cannot find it quickly in the rules reference, either, to prevent interrupting the game for too long while searching the webs.
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Markococo
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Can someone direct me to the rules about ties please?

I can't find it and must be missing something obvious.

Thanks





 
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Markococo
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Incidentally, I put it back on top of the encounter deck based on this

'Attach to' (pg 4)

'If the initial “attach to” check does not pass, the card is not able to be attached,and remains in its prior state or game area. If such a card
cannot remain in its prior state or game area, discard it.'


The next Mythos Phase, the same happened but the next time, there were clues on Miskatonic University and so it went on there, hindering me to the extreme.

It seemed as though Roland was simply getting there to investigate just in the nick of time, staying one step ahead of the cultists and it made for a really good thematic story! It was pretty cool.

Ultimately it didn't matter as a few pulls of the -4 token and a couple of auto-fails later, Roland was out of time and ran off howling into the night...




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Bobby Marino
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Mickey Stirrups wrote:
Can someone direct me to the rules about ties please?

I can't find it and must be missing something obvious.

Thanks

It's under Lead Investigator.
Quote:
If there are ever multiple valid options for a choice or decision that must be made (for example, a hunter enemy that could move in two different directions), the lead investigator is the final arbiter in choosing among those options.

It's also mentioned briefly in the Learn to Play book when it says to choose the Lead Investigator.
Quote:
The lead investigator is the player who will break ties and make decisions for the group whenever there is a conflict.


So in this case all locations equally have the most clue tokens, even though that number is zero, so the lead investigator chooses where it goes.

Edit:
I suppose if you want to look at it this way:
If you had two locations with two clues each, would you accept it as a tie and let the lead investigator choose? If the answer is yes, then the same should occur if all locations had two clues, which is the same that should occur if all locations had zero clues.
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mathew rynich
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Correct. Lead investigator settles ties. Just attach it to one of those location that have 0 clues. As stated the Grim rule is suppose to help alleviate rules debates during play. If you always do the worst thing possible you'll never feel like you win was unearned (and therefore I think it's a good rule of thumb). Post game it shouldn't be a thing we lean on to answer questions. Every situation should have a deterministic outcome in the rules. If not we need to email Matt and Nate so they know to add it to the FAQ.
 
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mplain
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Mickey Stirrups wrote:
Incidentally, I put it back on top of the encounter deck based on this

'Attach to' (pg 4)
'If the initial “attach to” check does not pass, the card is not able to be attached,and remains in its prior state or game area. If such a card
cannot remain in its prior state or game area, discard it.'

This is actually an oddly interesting question, how to interpret this rules entry and apply it to the situation with the Locked Door.

I suspect that once you've drawn an encounter card, it is no longer a part of the encounter deck, and so it won't go back there. Treacheries exist in some kind of limbo in-between game areas while they resolve. The correct answer here is probably "Since it cannot return to its previous state or game area, discard it". However, this is murky enough so that I've sent this question to Matt.
 
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mathew rynich
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Though the condition is attach it to the location with the most clues. The back side of the location cards are not in play until they are flipped. This yet again is a question of whether 0 clues is a valid quantity to test against (an LCG favorite is to debate how rules interact with the number 0).

I would assume it is consider we can test Burglary against a location with 0 clues, which was a question that was answered recently. I believe that answer was on CGDB, which is down currently though unfortunately.

If that is the case then we just have a tie and not an attachment condition that cannot be fulfilled.

Very interested in the answer to this question.
 
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mplain
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Matt Newman wrote:
Greetings!

mplain wrote:
A question about the card Locked Door.
It says: "Revelation - Attach to the location in play with the most clues, and without a Locked Door attached."

Imagine that there are two locations in play: one with 1 clue on it, and another one with 2 clues on it and a Locked Door attached. I draw another Locked Door.

Now, my gut reaction is that since the one location with the most clues already has a Locked Door attached, I should attach it to the location with the second-most clues.

But the literal reading of the card doesnt really support this interpretation, does it?

Locked Door basically says to attach it to a location that satisfies two requirements:
1) Has most clues among all locetions in play
2) Doesn't have another Locked Door attached

“Attach to the location in play with the most clues, and without a Locked Door attached” means you should attach it to the location in play with the most clues among those that do not have a Locked Door attached. Otherwise, we would simply write: “Attached to the location in play with the most clues. Limit 1 per location.” at which point the second copy would be discarded.

So if Location A has 5 clues and a Locked Door attached, and Location B has 3 clues, and Location C has 0 clues, you should attached the second Locked Door to Location B, because it is the location in play with the highest clues without a copy of Locked Door attached.

mplain wrote:
What happens to a Locked Door, or Obscuring Fog, if they cannot be legally attached?

Again, my gut reaction says it should be discarded.

However, one player pointed out this entry in the RRG:

Attach To
- The "attach to" phrase is checked for legality each time a card would be attached to a game element, but is not checked again after that attachment occurs. If the initial "attach to" check does not pass, the card is not able to be attached, and remains in its prior state or game area. If such a card cannot remain in its prior state or game area, discard it.

I suspect that the correct answer here is: "If an encounter card cannot be legally attached and thus cannot enter play, it must remain in its prior state or game area. And since it cannot remain in its prior state or game area, discard it.”


This is correct; if it has no legal place to attach, it should be discarded. As you pointed out, the revenant RR entry states that it
“...remains in its prior state or game area. If such a card cannot remain in its prior state or game area, discard it.” Since Treachery cards are typically discarded unless specified, it has nowhere else to go, so it is discarded.

------------------------------------------------
Matthew Newman
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Rian Van Der Merwe
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mplain wrote:


This is correct; if it has no legal place to attach, it should be discarded.


I had the same question and am glad I found this thread. So if the answer to the original question is that the Locked Door card gets discarded, does that by implication mean that "0 clues" isn't a valid condition to test against, ever?
 
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Scott Dockery
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Matt Newman was explicitly responding to the question of what happens when there is no legal attachment possible. An example of this would be Obscuring Fog ("Attach to your location. Limit 1 per location.") when your location already has another copy attached.
 
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Rian Van Der Merwe
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Right, but the implication is that if there are no locations with clues, that qualifies as "no legal attachment possible" for Locked Door. If "zero clues" were a test condition, that would be grounds for a legal attachment to one of the locations of the investigator's choosing.
 
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Scott Dockery
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rianvdm wrote:
Right, but the implication is that if there are no locations with clues, that qualifies as "no legal attachment possible" for Locked Door.


I don't see that implication. The question was:

Quote:
What happens to a Locked Door, or Obscuring Fog, if they cannot be legally attached?


Matt simply said they'd be discarded. He never said how you could end up in such a situation. At best, he implied its possible (since he wouldn't have answered a purely hypothetical question), but that's already covered with the Obscuring Fog example.
 
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Rian Van Der Merwe
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Ah ok, gotcha. So back to the original question then, since I'm still trying to figure out my next move...

It sounds like the most accepted answer is that if there are no clues, the lead investigator decides where to put Locked Door, and he/she can do this on any revealed or secret location (since secret locations also have 0 clues).

Is that where we landed on this?

Sorry for harping on this, but this card is so devastating I want to make sure I play it right
 
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Bobby Marino
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rianvdm wrote:
Ah ok, gotcha. So back to the original question then, since I'm still trying to figure out my next move...

It sounds like the most accepted answer is that if there are no clues, the lead investigator decides where to put Locked Door, and he/she can do this on any revealed or secret location (since secret locations also have 0 clues).

Is that where we landed on this?

Sorry for harping on this, but this card is so devastating I want to make sure I play it right


This is the correct way to play it, yes.
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Colin Sibo
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And my new shiny Fire Axe can't assist when opening a locked door !! I thought it would have been the perfect item to assist with those annoying roadblocks.
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Matt Watkins
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rianvdm wrote:
Sorry for harping on this, but this card is so devastating I want to make sure I play it right :)


Locked Door and Arcane Barrier are my most hated cards in the game.

Sibowitz wrote:
And my new shiny Fire Axe can't assist when opening a locked door !! I thought it would have been the perfect item to assist with those annoying roadblocks.


I've often thought (while playing) that it would be an interesting rule variant to be able to take a Fight action to perform a check against combat, which would allow, for instance, using a weapon to open a locked cabinet.
 
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