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Subject: Running out of enmity (tokens vs stickers) rss

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Casual Tryhard
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The rules state that:

Quote:
If an action would require more enmity tokens than you have available to spend, you may not take that action. If, through an unplanned course of events, you are required to spend an enmity token you do not have, instead lose one glory per enmity token you cannot spend.


Clear enough for the ordinary course of gaining enmity at the beginning of the game. However, later on in the campaign...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
You often place an enmity sticker without having given a token first -- mostly when interrogating advisors.

As the rule is written, there is nothing preventing you from carrying on interrogating advisors once all your enmity stickers are gone -- the rule only says you can't take actions that would require tokens, not stickers.

Is this working as intended?

One of us ran out of stickers at the very end of the campaign (he still had tokens). After a close reading of the rule above, we let him just carry on interrogating advisors without giving enmity for it -- at that point the entire table was pretty eager to discover those crucial advisors.

However, was it the designers' intention that he would have had to stop interrogating at this point? Or should we have treated the stickers, unlike the tokens, as infinite -- maybe marking enmity on the advisors with a pen after the physical stickers ran out?
 
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Evan Beach
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It seems ridiculous that running out of stickers would prevent you from taking ANY emnity action in the game from there on out.
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j n
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TheBeach0 wrote:
It seems ridiculous that running out of stickers would prevent you from taking ANY emnity action in the game from there on out.


It wouldn't. It *might* cause you to lose glory if you had to make those enmity permanent but couldn't.

But I think you should just use a colored marker.

EDIT: unless you're talking about spoilered stuff I'm not reading I guess.
 
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gary g
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I think the Enmity sticker sheet is there for a reason and don't think the intentions were for people to be making scanned copies because they ran out. Their is a printed consequence for not having the permanent enmity to give.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I'd say theirs a perceived balance in limiting the enmity to not just hire every advisor in the deck. Multiple times if you're not taking notes and forget what the passages are saying.

Maybe a bit of 'co-op' to work together figuring out this "Society threat"?

I say if you're out of stickers, you're out of interrogations.
 
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Casual Tryhard
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reshurc wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
...to not just hire every advisor in the deck. Multiple times if you're not taking notes and forget what the passages are saying.


endgame spoilers:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Forgetting what you saw the first time is not the only reason you may have to check the same advisor twice. And if nobody had access to those second checks, it might very well be impossible to end the campaign.
 
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TJ
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reshurc wrote:
I think the Enmity sticker sheet is there for a reason and don't think the intentions were for people to be making scanned copies because they ran out.


I agree, I don't think their intention was for you to make scanned copies. I think they underestimated the amount of permanent enmity would be needed in a campaign when they produced the physical game.

At this point there have been at least three threads (probably more) on BGG asking if permanent enmity is limited, with no response from the designer, developer, or publisher. I've contacted PHG directly, asking if they could provide a printable PDF if it's not limited, with no response.

If permanent enmity is limited, I feel like they would have said so at this point. If it is limited, that actually means that the campaign can reach a state where it's literally unfinishable. While it's an edge case, this seems like a major oversight to have in a legacy game.

If permanent enmity is not limited, then this means that during the production of the final game, somebody had to make the call whether to include a single sticker sheet or two, and decided on a single sticker sheet to save on production costs. This puts PHG in a tricky spot: if they acknowledge that permanent enmity isn't limited, how are they going to handle it? A printable PDF is the simplest/cheapest solution on their end, but some gamers are going to be upset that they have to create their own stickers (gamers typically don't like these kind of solutions from publishers). If they provide additional sticker sheets, they likely don't have a huge stack of them sitting around, and would need to get them printed at the printer. That combined with shipping costs would eat into their profits, or they'd have to make gamers pay for them (once again, something that gamers typically don't like publishers to do). So there's really no situation where PHG comes out looking like the good guy without losing money.
 
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Mike A
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Slyght wrote:
reshurc wrote:
I think the Enmity sticker sheet is there for a reason and don't think the intentions were for people to be making scanned copies because they ran out.


I agree, I don't think their intention was for you to make scanned copies. I think they underestimated the amount of permanent enmity would be needed in a campaign when they produced the physical game.

At this point there have been at least three threads (probably more) on BGG asking if permanent enmity is limited, with no response from the designer, developer, or publisher. I've contacted PHG directly, asking if they could provide a printable PDF if it's not limited, with no response.

If permanent enmity is limited, I feel like they would have said so at this point. If it is limited, that actually means that the campaign can reach a state where it's literally unfinishable. While it's an edge case, this seems like a major oversight to have in a legacy game.

If permanent enmity is not limited, then this means that during the production of the final game, somebody had to make the call whether to include a single sticker sheet or two, and decided on a single sticker sheet to save on production costs. This puts PHG in a tricky spot: if they acknowledge that permanent enmity isn't limited, how are they going to handle it? A printable PDF is the simplest/cheapest solution on their end, but some gamers are going to be upset that they have to create their own stickers (gamers typically don't like these kind of solutions from publishers). If they provide additional sticker sheets, they likely don't have a huge stack of them sitting around, and would need to get them printed at the printer. That combined with shipping costs would eat into their profits, or they'd have to make gamers pay for them (once again, something that gamers typically don't like publishers to do). So there's really no situation where PHG comes out looking like the good guy without losing money.

+1
We are seven games in and one player has 6 stickers left. If it was meant to be limited then what can they possibly do with 8 potential games left?
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Will Davis
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+1, I would also like to know what we're supposed to do if we run out of permanent enmity. I don't mind the solution "markers", if that's what's supposed to happen, but it'd be good to know.
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Evan Beach
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The more I think about it, I think the rule about not being able to place a token should apply to not being able to place a sticker. Lose 1 Glory.

It makes the most sense of all the possible answers and seems to strike the right balance.
 
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Adam Ruzzo
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spriggster wrote:
+1
We are seven games in and one player has 6 stickers left. If it was meant to be limited then what can they possibly do with 8 potential games left?


If that player is placing 5 stickers per game, they must be crippled by this point? They can't raid anything anymore, they can't buy anything efficently...what are they doing? Did they shift resources to exploration? Perhaps there is some other mechanism of which I am unaware, but the game devs can't add in an extra sticker sheet just because some players are going to choose to play extremely poorly, no?
 
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j n
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Bridger wrote:
If that player is placing 5 stickers per game, they must be crippled by this point?


Probably not. There's a lot of potential targets as the game opens up. And a lot of +Raid abilities to be had.

And probably some other stuff dealing with enmity, only some of which I know about.
 
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Mike A
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Bridger wrote:
spriggster wrote:
+1
We are seven games in and one player has 6 stickers left. If it was meant to be limited then what can they possibly do with 8 potential games left?


If that player is placing 5 stickers per game, they must be crippled by this point? They can't raid anything anymore, they can't buy anything efficently...what are they doing? Did they shift resources to exploration? Perhaps there is some other mechanism of which I am unaware, but the game devs can't add in an extra sticker sheet just because some players are going to choose to play extremely poorly, no?


Quite the opposite actually. This player is in the lead and has been in the lead most of the time. They have won 3 (the most of any other player) of our 7 games so far. There continues to be many fresh new islands to exploit. Also (box 4 spoilers)...
Spoiler (click to reveal)
As of our most recent game they conquered and now control Ker. You would think that with all the enmity they have this would not have been a possible target for them. But with they way they were in turn order (distribute enmity to this island clockwise from the person who discovered it once Patmos is revealed) much of their enmity got overwritten.

We will see over the course of the rest of the campaign if all the enmity will eventually catch up but so far its not been holding them back.
 
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Ian Liddle
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spriggster wrote:
Also (box 4 spoilers)...
Spoiler (click to reveal)
As of our most recent game they conquered and now control Ker. You would think that with all the enmity they have this would not have been a possible target for them. But with they way they were in turn order (distribute enmity to this island clockwise from the person who discovered it once Patmos is revealed) much of their enmity got overwritten.

We will see over the course of the rest of the campaign if all the enmity will eventually catch up but so far its not been holding them back.


Why?
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The other players placing enmity can cover anyone else's enmity... Did other players have so much that they had no choice but to overwrite the leader's, or did that rule slip past your group?
 
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Mike A
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Why?
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The other players placing enmity can cover anyone else's enmity... Did other players have so much that they had no choice but to overwrite the leader's, or did that rule slip past your group?


Spoiler (click to reveal)
Me and the player who discovered Patmos had 3 colonies each so all of us had to place 3 to 5 enmity each where the leader (heavy raider) had to place 9 if I remember right. So when it came around to him he choose to overwrite in such a way so all his rivals would have a somewhat equal amount of enmity to overcome rather than make it easy for some and very hard for the one player to conquer. Doing so it gave him a better shot to conquer it rather then basically serve it up on a silver platter to another 'low enmity' player. It didn't work out that way. The heavy raider got there ahead of him and conquered it first.
 
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TJ
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Rob has confirmed permanent enmity is not limited

https://twitter.com/robdaviau/status/801486112724287490
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j n
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Yay!
 
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Evan Beach
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Slyght wrote:
Rob has confirmed permanent enmity is not limited

https://twitter.com/robdaviau/status/801486112724287490


Huzzah!
 
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Nathan Talbert

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here is a link to the jpg I uploaded to print extra stickers.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1749705/jpg-print-more-emni...
 
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