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Subject: Differences between Leningrad and Moscow '41 rss

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Willem Boersma
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I'm somewhat in two minds about whether or not I should get on board of the Leningrad '41 kickstarter. The map looks gorgeous, as do the components, I like the game engine, but at the same time, if it's basically Moscow '41 with a few rules slightly changed and a different map, then I'm not sure I need the game (I'm short of shelf space already! .

So in short, can anybody tell me what the differences are (game play wise and rule wise) between the two games?

Thanks in advance!
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Kevin Duke
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Since you also posted this question on the Moscow '41 thread, I will cross post my answer here:

Actually, that is a great question and I'm glad you asked.

Because I love the answer.

I had a LONG Skype call with Emmanuele this morning and this subject came up. I'm helping promote the game, but I have not played it myself.

But Emmanuele has played it and watched the playtesters go through many games. For his playtesters he has a nice mix-- veterans who played Moscow '41, and other gamers who have not played Moscow '41.

Along the way, he began to notice something. The "veteran" M-41 players were, at first, not "enjoying" Leningrad '41 as much as they had enjoyed M-41. They were frustrated. They thought there was something "wrong" with the game.

But the people who had not played Moscow '41 were not having the same sorts of problems and frustrations.

Of course, this drew his attention!

And, when he really got up close to the situation, he spotted what was happening.

The terrain, operational situation, and order of battle are very different in Leningrad '41 than they are in Moscow '41. Okay-- sure. What of it?

The "problem" that the veteran M-41 players were having was tied to the fact that they were trying to play Leningrad '41 the same way (meaning the same tactics and style) that they had used to be successful in Moscow '41. And it was not working. It turns out, they have to learn "new tactics" to be successful in L-41.

So to answer your question, there are not that many difference in RULES between Moscow '41 and Leningrad '41. You won't have to learn a whole new game to play. But there are significant differences in the SITUATION between the two games (even before you consider the differences that the Finns will make, both because they have slightly different army abilities, and because they force the Soviets to fight a "two-front" war).

So you will not feel like you are replaying Moscow '41 on a different map. In fact, trying to do that will be the wrong approach. The rules are similar, but the "puzzle" is very new.

Hope that helps. It certainly has me more excited.

I will cross post this in your other area, because I agree with you-- good question. Hope it's a good reply.
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Willem Boersma
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kduke wrote:
Since you also posted this question on the Moscow '41 thread, I will cross post my answer here:

Actually, that is a great question and I'm glad you asked.

Because I love the answer.

I had a LONG Skype call with Emmanuele this morning and this subject came up. I'm helping promote the game, but I have not played it myself.

But Emmanuele has played it and watched the playtesters go through many games. For his playtesters he has a nice mix-- veterans who played Moscow '41, and other games who have not played Moscow '41.

Along the way, he began to notice something. The "veteran" M-41 players were, at first, not "enjoying" Leningrad '41 as much as they had enjoyg M-41. They were frustrated. They thought there was something "wrong" with the game.

But the people who had not played Moscow '41 were not having the same sorts of problems and frustrations.

Of course, this drew his attention!

And, when he really got up close to the situation, he spotted what was happening.

The terrain, operational situation, and order of battle are very different in Leningrad '41 than they are in Moscow '41. Okay-- sure. What of it?

The "problem" that the veteran M-41 players were having was tied to the fact that they were trying to play Leningrad '41 the same way (meaning the same tactics and style) that they had used to be successful in Moscow '41. And it was not working. It turns out, they have to learn "new tactics" to be successful in L-41.

So to answer your question, there are not that many difference in RULES between Moscow '41 and Leningrad '41. You won't have to learn a whole new game to play. But there are significant differences in the SITUATION between the two games (even before you consider the differences that the Finns will make, both because they have slightly different army abilities, and because they force the Soviets to fight a "two-front" war).

So you will not feel like you are replaying Moscow '41 on a different map. In fact, trying to do that will be the wrong approach. The rules are similar, but the "puzzle" is very new.

Hope that helps. It certainly has me more excited.

I will cross post this in your other area, because I agree with you-- good question. Hope it's a good reply.


Ok, i'm being seriously tempted now
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G Geisler

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Kevin,

Are there separate tracks on the Leningrad map similar to Moscow 41?

I am on the fence as well. I don't doubt the quality of the game but there have been a ton of wargame Kickstarter campaigns the past 18 months that have received a lot of support. I still am looking for a compelling reason to back the game as well.
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Kevin Duke
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Not a very good picture but I think it answers the question.




That has to do with Murmansk.
It appears that the Finns and the circumstances around them bring some special wrinkles for both sides. There is also activity linked with the Baltic Fleet and to what degree it messes with the German flank or that the Germans can suppress it.

I also know in the force makeup there are also some troops that get "released" based on other things.

The VNG guys will be making some 'how to play" videos next week and I will suggest that this includes some "how L41 is different" aspects.
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Kevin Duke
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MORE Differences between Leningrad and Moscow '41
Update 6 has a lot to add to the question of "differences."

Quote:
Exciting news from the Leningrad '41 Kickstarter. The game will now include a special oversized wooden tile and sticker of the Soviet BB "Marat" to represent the actions of the Baltic Fleet. Shown is prototype art of the sticker which will be used on the NATO sticker sheet. A nice side view will come on the Icon sheet.
You will find more details on Update 6, dated Nov 29. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/m41/leningrad-41-strate...



Prototype art




And a mockup showing the piece on the map.





They say they will post more rules soon, but the short bottom line is the "navy" will be able to lend assistance to the Soviets in battles along the coast and the Germans can-- if they choose-- devote Luftwaffe assets to making the navy less potent. It's not just the Marat involved, so the only way to get rid of the entire Soviet Navy is to take their ports, but the German player can make the Navy far less effective.

This sets up a little game within a game (and also makes areas which are not Leningrad still critical in the game). I think those add up to some "differences between..."
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Willem Boersma
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kduke wrote:
Update 6 has a lot to add to the question of "differences."

Quote:
Exciting news from the Leningrad '41 Kickstarter. The game will now include a special oversized wooden tile and sticker of the Soviet BB "Marat" to represent the actions of the Baltic Fleet. Shown is prototype art of the sticker which will be used on the NATO sticker sheet. A nice side view will come on the Icon sheet.
You will find more details on Update 6, dated Nov 29. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/m41/leningrad-41-strate...



Prototype art




And a mockup showing the piece on the map.





They say they will post more rules soon, but the short bottom line is the "navy" will be able to lend assistance to the Soviets in battles along the coast and the Germans can-- if they choose-- devote Luftwaffe assets to making the navy less potent. It's not just the Marat involved, so the only way to get rid of the entire Soviet Navy is to take their ports, but the German player can make the Navy far less effective.

This sets up a little game within a game (and also makes areas which are not Leningrad still critical in the game). I think those add up to some "differences between..."


Maybe as a stretch-goal/ Add-on a miniature of this piece could be added? (personally, I prefer plastic to metal).
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Willem Boersma
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Wasn't the German Blatic Fleet actually stronger than the Soviet one? (Maybe too many games of Axis and Allies are wrongfooting me here, though...)modest
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Kevin Duke
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It depends on the time period. For a couple months, the Germans put together a very powerful force--including Tirpitz-- to deal with the Baltic Fleet if it tried to 'break out." When this ceased to be a concern, they disbanded this force and left things to torpedo boats, minelayers/sweepers and a few subs.

The German navy was not going to try and enter Soviet harbors to take out the ships-- too many mines. Instead, they laid lots of their own mines to keep the cork in the bottle.

The Soviet fleet was severely damaged by aerial attack (and even some land based artillery) but never completely eliminated. The Germans cannot 'sink' it in the game (but they can reduce it's strength), but if they take away it's ports, it will stop being a problem.

Emanuele will have a post soon with more detailed rules on the Fleet use, but the short answer is, it can be a part of battles on the coast, working a bit like the arty. And it's cool.

I like the idea of having a miniature as a Stretch Goal. Let's share the kickstarter any where we can in order to achieve the SGs already listed. I know they have a lot more SGs available but sales have been flat. I don't think enough folks are aware of the kickstarter.
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Willem Boersma
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kduke wrote:
I like the idea of having a miniature as a Stretch Goal. Let's share the kickstarter any where we can in order to achieve the SGs already listed. I know they have a lot more SGs available but sales have been flat. I don't think enough folks are aware of the kickstarter.


The company may consider having (a) banner(s) posted on BGG to draw attention to the KS. Furthermore, perhaps the fact that people may be spending a lot of money already on the upcoming holiday season may be a factor. It also stands to reason that some folks, like myself, want to really make sure that this game is different enough from Moscow '41 to warrant its purchase. (I'm convinced already, though). Finally, again, like myself, I find myself having to make harder choices in what to get and what not to get simply because of lack of shelf space. Then again, that's probably not the biggest contributing factor.

Personally, I'm very pleasantly surprised with this company and the quality of its products. They certainly seem to deserve our support! But in fact, before Moscow '41 I wasn't actually aware of its existence, whereas I do visit BGG very regularly and exclusively wargames at that. It seems good products alone do not yet seem to cut it for them. Perhaps somehow they need to work on their brand awareness (even) more.
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Kevin Duke
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Well, they are certainly working on getting the word to more people.

For the record, the smallest banner you can get on BGG costs $500.

They did run one for Moscow '41 but did not see that many sales to justify that much expense.
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Willem Boersma
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kduke wrote:
Well, they are certainly working on getting the word to more people.

For the record, the smallest banner you can get on BGG costs $500.

They did run one for Moscow '41 but did not see that many sales to justify that much expense.


Well, I certainly hope they'll succeed! Their products certainly deserve it! I also have to say that Emanuele's customer service is excellent and his responses extremely prompt!

Of course I'm also hoping on more stretch goals!
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Kevin Duke
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Me too-- the best way is to spread the word.

(or think about that Buddy Bundle or Store Pack!)
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Jim O'Neill (Established 1949)
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I have been thinking on the original post and the answer is obvious:

Moscow is on the Moskva River and Leningrad is on the Neva River, which flows into the Baltic sea.

I hope that helps... whistle


Jim

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Martin Gallo
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oneilljgf wrote:
I have been thinking on the original post and the answer is obvious:

Moscow is on the Moskva River and Leningrad is on the Neva River, which flows into the Baltic sea.

I hope that helps... whistle


Jim

Est. 1949

I keep resisting the urge to post that it is about map orientation.
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StevenE Smooth Sailing...
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About 635km... ??? whistle
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