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Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Shadows of the Past» Forums » Rules

Subject: Desperation Activations rss

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Brad Rollins
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If I have old hob and 2 brawlers on the map that haven't activated, and I have 5 old hob cards in hand, can I desperation activation twice to activate each brawler?

Based on my interpretation of the rules, I can, but there's a ruling from Kevin regarding awakening villains that requires you to activate the fallen leader if you can by the end of the next round.You can't use desperation to awaken a fallen hero, obviously, but that seems to set a precedent where you reveal what cards you have in hand to assure the turtle players that you can't attempt to awaken. If you do have to reveal to prove that you can not awaken, does that mean that you also have to prove that you can not activate a figure?

Also, for example, what happens if you have 2 brawlers left as the only units on the board and your first card is a 2x brawler card. You can not force activate afterwards in the same round. How do you play a second card? Do you not play a second card? Or are you forced to lay down something you can't activate?
 
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Scott Miller
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You need to take Kevin's ruling in context. Some people were trying to find a loophole in the rules regarding when KO tokens are received. The rulebook says KO tokens are only received when a character tries and fails to awaken. Kevin said a KO token would also be received if the character did not attempt to awaken at all. That's all the ruling was about.
 
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Joe Prozinski
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pikachewbacca wrote:
If I have old hob and 2 brawlers on the map that haven't activated, and I have 5 old hob cards in hand, can I desperation activation twice to activate each brawler?

Based on my interpretation of the rules, I can, but there's a ruling from Kevin regarding awakening villains that requires you to activate the fallen leader if you can by the end of the next round.You can't use desperation to awaken a fallen hero, obviously, but that seems to set a precedent where you reveal what cards you have in hand to assure the turtle players that you can't attempt to awaken. If you do have to reveal to prove that you can not awaken, does that mean that you also have to prove that you can not activate a figure?


Yes, you can desperate activate each of those thugs once. Kevin's rules was for KO'd leaders. You have to activate that KO'd leader before the end of the round, not turn, if you don't it gets a KO'd token. You also don't have to reveal cards. You aren't forced to activate the villain in preference to other models. You have the option to not do it, but if you don't do it by the end of the round it gets the token. So yes, it is possible to get into a really crappy situation where you have no villain cards in hand for the last turn of a round and you can't attempt to activate them, even though you want to. I would dare say that if you are in that situation, you've probably already lost anyway, and you are just looking for cheesy way to get out of losing if you don't like it.

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Also, for example, what happens if you have 2 brawlers left as the only units on the board and your first card is a 2x brawler card. You can not force activate afterwards in the same round. How do you play a second card? Do you not play a second card? Or are you forced to lay down something you can't activate?


You always have to play two cards as the villain. You play the second card face up and just don't activate a model. You activate up to the number of models as indicated on the card, so activating no models is a valid play. Remember you still gain the benefits of the special ability on the card (as long as you don't use that special ability to activate something already activated that turn) and any defense icons on them. Some of the special abilities have abilities that continue while the card is in play. So even if you are in that situation, playing a card that doesn't activate a minion isn't a total waste.
 
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Brad Rollins
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Perfect. Thanks much to both of you!
 
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Doctor Bandage
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Delthos wrote:

You have to activate that KO'd leader before the end of the round, not turn, if you don't it gets a KO'd token. You also don't have to reveal cards. You aren't forced to activate the villain in preference to other models. You have the option to not do it, but if you don't do it by the end of the round it gets the token.


Can you clarify this for me? I'm still a bit confused on Kevin's ruling about villains gaining KO tokens. Do you have until the end of the current round to attempt to awaken them or do you need to go a full round without activating that leader get the KO token? It seems like a trivial distinction, but it could give the villain player either very little time to recuperate (1 turn) or a fair amount of time (5 turns) under certain conditions.

As an example, lets say Old Hob is knocked down on the very last turtle's turn. Old hob has previously been activated this round. The villain player always has the last turn of the round, so they'll get one turn before the round ends. Under one interpretation of the ruling, the villain player must try to awaken Old Hob right away or else they'll get a KO token. In the other interpretation, the villain player has up 5 turns (the current turn plus the 4 received next round) to get in a better position to try and awaken Hob.

Now consider a similar scenario to the above where Old Hob has not been activated during the current round, but everything else is the same. Does the villain have a different number of turns now than the above scenario?
 
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Donn Hardy
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That's a very good point. Taken at face value, this allows for gaming on the heroes part by letting them wait until the last turn to KO a villain in order to make it far harder for the villain to avoid the KO token.
 
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Scott Miller
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donnbobhardy wrote:
That's a very good point. Taken at face value, this allows for gaming on the heroes part by letting them wait until the last turn to KO a villain in order to make it far harder for the villain to avoid the KO token.

I think there are two reasons, though. First, the heroes would have to wait until the next round to get a KO token, so why not the villain? Second, it's more likely the villain would get the cards he needs over a full round than over a single turn. And yeah, it could still be abused, but most likely if you're in that situation you're not putting a smack to the heroes, so what difference does a few more turns make? This was a rule put in to prevent a stalemate, not to tie everything up with a neat bow.
 
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Doctor Bandage
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Wait, so which interpretation of the ruling are you arguing for, Scott?
 
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Scott Miller
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DoctorBandage wrote:
Wait, so which interpretation of the ruling are you arguing for, Scott?

I may have misread Donn's post. But I'm not arguing for or against anything. I'm just saying that I think the new rule was designed to, as realistically as possible, prevent a stalemate. Any rule can be abused.
 
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Joe Prozinski
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I would have to find the thread where Kevin stated it to see his exact wording, but I took it to mean by the current round's end.

While the possibility is there for the heroes to take advantage of the situation and the villain won't have a chance to avoid the KO, I think it won't happen very often where the villain doesn't have a chance to attempt to activate even though he wants to. Also the hero's don't have the ability to dictate when the villain goes down in a round. They can try, but they still have to roll the dice. They never know how the dice will fall and what cards will be in play, so if they try to sandbag it can backfire.

I don't think giving the villain the rest of the current round and another entire round to wake up is a good idea either. As I said, if they are down they aren't doing well in the first place and they may as well count it as a loss if they are in the situation where they can't activate.

 
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Matthew Cary
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I would argue the villain always goes last in a round. After the last turtle turn the villain gets their last turn. One of the advantages the villains have is that they can activate multiple times in a round (once per turn, but up to 4 times a round). The price they pay is that they have less time to get up before getting a KO marker.

So even if the turtles coordinate to down the villain at the end of the round the villain will have a minimum of two cards on their turn to try to get up. As villains can activate every turn, they can always try to get up even if it is with a desperation activation.

I think Kevin's ruling is intended to speed up the game by forcing a KO token if you don't use the turns available to you to try to wake up. It may not be an optimal time, but that is why we have winners and losers for each scenario.

But that is just one mans opinion
 
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Donn Hardy
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Jhamin wrote:
As villains can activate every turn, they can always try to get up even if it is with a desperation activation.


You can't wake up on a desperation activation.
 
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Matthew Cary
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donnbobhardy wrote:
Jhamin wrote:
As villains can activate every turn, they can always try to get up even if it is with a desperation activation.


You can't wake up on a desperation activation.


True. I stand my statement. If the turtles do everything right and the villain doesn't have the right cards, good job/good luck for the Turtles.

Sometimes a Turtle doesn't have enough shells to roll well enough to stand up on their turn. Too bad for them.
 
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Kevin Wilson
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I'll keep an eye on the ruling for a bit. It may be that desperation activation needs to be allowed for waking up villains to balance out the villain KO'ed token ruling. Give me some time with it, as it has some subtle implications in the system that need to be examined.
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KevinW wrote:
I'll keep an eye on the ruling for a bit. It may be that desperation activation needs to be allowed for waking up villains to balance out the villain KO'ed token ruling. Give me some time with it, as it has some subtle implications in the system that need to be examined.


Kevin, is it going to be any official rulebook update soon?
It´s been a while since I last asked you and I hope the issues can be fixed before City Fall hits the shelves. Or maybe they will be fixed in City Fall rules?

Thank you and keep the good work!
 
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Scott Miller
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Yes, an update would be nice. I can see how there might be an issue with players hoarding good cards and using a weak card for DA to revive. Maybe a rule that using DA to revive (assuming the revive is successful) forces the villain to wait an extra turn before use. Or using DA gives a -1 modifier to the roll. Just something to discourage use but not prevent it.
 
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