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Subject: A couple gamplay issues I've had (spoilers regarding value of certain actions up to Box 3) rss

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A R
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First, I'll set the table for the worst gaming session I have ever experienced:

I scraped out a lead over several prior sessions using the merchant and soldier. Going into the game prior to this one, I held a sizeable lead on some and was closer with others. At the end of that game, the catch-up mechanics helped the furthest behind to win but I managed to build my lead over the other two.

Going into the next game, I held a lead over all players ranging between 19 to 28 24 points. The catch-up would be painful. My plan going in was to simply accomplish some things that might carry forward to the next game.

We begin:

Spoiler (click to reveal)


- I plan to simply build a colony. I will wander around collecting cubes and build a colony and maybe buy a treasure and one building because I have the +1 glory slot for those items.

- Another player (Player 2) had pimped his advisor to be a super explorer. He will likely go after those weird skulls, those are probably the "ancient tombs" that the milestone is talking about. I imagine he'll get that, but he can only use the advisor twice this game (never have we had 3 winters), so that's ok. The explore values are so high on those tombs that nobody else can feasibly do them anyway. I suppose I should think about trying to steal his advisor but no, I'll build a colony because that'll stay around next game.

- Each other player receives 4X or 5X catch-up bonuses, sounds like fun. It's irritating to start so far behind.

- A third player, Player 3, uses some of his bonus to get +2 explore straight at the beginning of the game. Still can't get to those tombs but I guess he'll pick off some of the easier ones. He also kept an advisor that lets you use money for colonies that we all thought would be useful last game, good thing he spent most of his money! Wish I could have snagged that guy, maybe I'll try to steal him later...

- As expected, by turn 2 Player 2 has explored the tomb. WOW! 8 glory (with the milestone), that's a lot, let's see what's in the new box.

- Oh, ho; the tomb suddenly becomes 7 difficulty and there's suddenly a new milestone worth another 4 points if you can go through one without damage. Player 3 can have a go at this immediately. If he picks the right tomb, he can use his explore buff and there's another exploring advisor that can be bought.

- Player 3 picks a tomb and gets an exploring one (which I suggested to him, ironically). WOW! He did it without taking damage and got the new milestone, he got 5 glory AND he got 45 gold! Good thing he has that advisor that lets him buy colonies for gold.... that'll be another 4 points next turn.

- Turn 3, Player 2 gets some more points and Player 3 builds a colony. They're both near 10 points each and I have a couple cubes that I've sold.. At least I'll get the colony before they finish this game quickly....

- Finally! I have enough cubes, I knew I probably wasn't going to win but at least I'll get this colony and now I can grab some more points doing other things. Ooops, Player 3 has enough points that he can afford to burn all his reputation (getting a good +raid advisor that just popped up) and fortune to spend a turn raiding my ship.. Looks like I'll have to get more cubes....

- Yay! I have enough cubes and Player 3's ships are sunk/weakened. He can't get two points this turn to finish the game and I can finally build my colony. Oh, the one advisor that gives an extra point for building a structure with gold came up just before his turn..... He has JUST enough gold to buy him and a 10 cost building (because Bob the Builder gives -4 to build). I guess the game is over. I bought one treasure and can dump these goods in the sea.



Now.. I'm not sure if anyone read all that, but that wasn't much fun, to the point that I'd rather have not played that session at all and waited until they all caught up. However, I can think of a few issues that particularly suck the fun out

- Unlocking a box in the middle of the game that provides milestones / new opportunities with ZERO chance to adapt or plan for it. It's completely random whether you can profit from it or not.

- The catch-up sucks the fun out of individual games for the leader until the campaign glory is re-balanced. I'd honestly rather that they receive bonus end-game glory and/or upgrades rather than distorting the in-game balance. It's difficult to start a game knowing that you are very likely to lose and basically have to play your own mini-game with its own objectives. The sudden surges in points and unpredictable end game timing makes this harder.

- It might be worthwhile to be given some inkling regarding the importance of various types of structures and what range of rewards you can receive from various actions. Mid-game rule changes aren't terribly rewarding imo.

- take-that mechanics generally target players that are having a good game or for strategic in game reasons. In this game, they can reasonably target someone whose game has already been handicapped by catch-up mechanics and who more than likely is already in last place and already having a crappy outing. It's a double whammy of sadness. I understand the need for something to keep the campaign competitive but feel like the end game rewards or the tracking of glory should have been tweaked to avoid such occurrences.

Anyone else have some thoughts on how to enjoy the game... I'm not really drawn to the story-telling / exploring aspect but they seem to be fairly important at this point. Will it get better for someone who likes economic games and dudes on a map games. I'm committed either way, a friend bought it, but hopefully the randomness goes down....
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David desJardins
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Several of our group would agree with your criticisms.
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gary g
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Okay, you had a 'Bad' game....after you only planned for an 'Okay' game with just accomplishing some stuff to bring over into future games....


How did all the players that were 19-28 points behind you feel?
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reshurc wrote:
Okay, you had a 'Bad' game....after you only planned for an 'Okay' game with just accomplishing some stuff to bring over into future games....


How did all the players that were 19-28 points behind you feel?


As I said, I understand why there's a make-up system; I just think it creates pretty awful gameplay when coupled with the other parts of the game. I don't expect to win every game, nor do I always win other games in our group. Obviously, it would really be crappy to play a whole campaign where there's no chance of catching up.

It really boils down to the fact that you have to come into a game expecting to be trounced and then there are random rule drops and milestones piled on that you cannot plan for without looking through the unopened boxes. As a stand alone gaming experience, who would want to subject themselves to such a pointless....endeavour. I'm playing a microcosm of what the catch-up bonus is trying to prevent.

We've all had bad games before, but in this case at the end of it all I would have rather rolled a dice and been allotted a die roll of points than be subjected to a similar session.

And, once again, I think the mid-game rules / milestone drops are more random result generators than they are interesting.
 
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Becq Starforged
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It sounds to me as though you would have accomplished your goal if it weren't for two things that were entirely player decisions and that had nothing to do with the catch-up mechanism:
* Player 3 raided you ship and sapped you of goods (and time)
* You retaliated against Player 3, further sapping you of time

To be sure, the catch-up mechanism made things easier on the other players, but they weren't what kept you from your goal.

I can certainly see how that game must have been frustrating for you. I've had a game or two like it, too (for various reasons). But it looks to me as though the catch-up mechanism did exactly what it was intended to do. It got the players who were being back into the game. You didn't mention the final scores, but it sounds as though you are probably still in first place, but by less than before. So during the next game, the catch-up benefit will be considerably less.
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David desJardins
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Becq wrote:
It sounds to me as though you would have accomplished your goal if it weren't for two things that were entirely player decisions and that had nothing to do with the catch-up mechanism:
* Player 3 raided you ship and sapped you of goods (and time)
* You retaliated against Player 3, further sapping you of time


I think he had to do that to get the goods back. Any other way to get goods would have taken just as long.
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Darrell Goodridge
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We had two games of that. The first one was the milestone for finding the thing so 10 point turn, game done. The second one was having the new milestones and finding more of the things, so major points there. Hopefully, it's slowed down now back to an economic pirate game, but we'll see. I also found being the Prince to be a heavy toll, but it does help even things out a bit. I'm down to Duke now, because of the aforementioned games, but even that seems like a huge weight is off.
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I probably did create inefficiencies throughout the game. In general, I try to keep my turns moving so I may very well have missed an opportunity to get more goods in a single action if I had only moved my ship elsewhere or had the better used the +1 sail event etc. etc. I would say our gaming group is fairly well balanced, however; there were probably inefficiencies all around.

Becq wrote:

* Player 3 raided you ship and sapped you of goods (and time)


He was able to do this by forfeiting two reputation to buy an advisor and a further two fortune to pass the defense. I have two of his permanent enmity already so he lost 6 dice off the top. He was only in a position to sacrifice all that for one glory because he gained a huge chunk of glory due to the timing and type of rules/milestones that were dropped during the game. Even then, it wasn't a sure roll after investing all that.

Becq wrote:

* You retaliated against Player 3, further sapping you of time


As mentioned by another poster, I needed cubes back and had just received 4 enmity of his. Grabbing some resources and sinking a ship + 1 glory seemed like the safest bet as I was already sharing a tile with him and I believe the goods on island sites were largely consumed at that time. (Player 4 was gobbling cubes as well)

Becq wrote:

But it looks to me as though the catch-up mechanism did exactly what it was intended to do. It got the players who were being back into the game. You didn't mention the final scores, but it sounds as though you are probably still in first place, but by less than before. So during the next game, the catch-up benefit will be considerably less.


That the catch-up mechanic works is indisputable, I just think it's crummy solution to the problem. Sadly yes, I remain in the lead. Player 4 also had a crappy game because he didn't have those surprise bonuses. He remains pretty far back and will get 4x bonuses while the other two get 3x and 2x.

All I'm saying is that mid-game rule changes and milestones can really ruin a game/experience when players are already handicapped. I understand it's a legacy format and some of the fun is meant to be new strategies or opportunities opening up. I do believe, however, that they should probably be introduced at the beginning of the game. That, or perhaps some inkling as to what kind of rewards are coming your way beyond the skill check number.
 
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Cardboardjunkie wrote:
We had two games of that. The first one was the milestone for finding the thing so 10 point turn, game done. The second one was having the new milestones and finding more of the things, so major points there. Hopefully, it's slowed down now back to an economic pirate game, but we'll see. I also found being the Prince to be a heavy toll, but it does help even things out a bit. I'm down to Duke now, because of the aforementioned games, but even that seems like a huge weight is off.


Yes, this is my second game at Prince and next will be my third, but likely (hopefully?) last. I was digging the pirating / economic parts but am not super jazzed with the new stuff.
 
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j n
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I think my group needs to learn from yours. I went into my most recent game thinking I was going to be laying groundwork from the future while everyone else catches up, with only a small chance of claiming a milestone. Instead I ended up claiming two (including one unlocked right away) and now I'm 17 points ahead of the closest contender.

(I didn't read your spoilered stuff because I think you've opened a box we haven't yet, but I think I know some of the things you are talking about).

I'm not sure how this particular case could have been handled without opening *something* mid-game.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I'm assuming you're talking about the milestone for finding an ancient tomb, which unlocks a milestone for exploring a tomb site with no damage.

I guess box 1 could have had a single Ancient Tomb sticker in it**, and the first milestone could have said "This site does nothing this game, but unlock box 3 at the end of this game which will have more instructions for future games."

I'm not sure if that's overall a more satisfying experience for everyone, but it would surely be less swingy for that one game.

**EDIT: It would need to have all/most of the Tomb stickers, actually, because multiple Tombs could presumably be discovered once box 1 is opened, and you would need to be able to at least mark them in-game. I feel like any way of doing this is going to lead to some playgroups feeling unsatisfied for one reason or another.


Anyway, I hope you do have fun in the future (assuming you continue to play). For myself, if the other players decide to burn down my province and salt the earth I will at least know that I earned it.
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lactamaeon wrote:
(I didn't read your spoilered stuff because I think you've opened a box we haven't yet, but I think I know some of the things you are talking about).

I'm not sure how this particular case could have been handled without opening *something* mid-game.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
Yes, it's the one you're thinking about and I did think it's super swingy, particularly both being claimed back to back within a single turn cycle.

I guess next game we'll just ram through those tombs until they close.
 
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Mike A
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
I don't mind the milestone glory swings, the randomness, the catch up mechanic. We are 7 games into our campaign and things tend to be evening out overall.

What I do find frustrating is the sudden end game trigger. Someone suddenly leaps up 9 points in one turn and then the game is over at the end of round. Depending on who holds the astrolabe you may not even get another turn to react. Sometimes you can anticipate that someone is about to win and try to grab some points on what you know to be be your last or second last turn. However many times this can come out of nowhere, and if you hold the astrolabe anyone who does this after your turn means you have already had your last turn. Meanwhile I've spent the last 4 turns gearing up to explore a skull site and will be ready next turn or I have 6 goods sitting on my ships just needing one more turn to build a colony. I would have liked this mechanic to have been handled a bit differently.
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spriggster wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I don't mind the milestone glory swings, the randomness, the catch up mechanic. We are 7 games into our campaign and things tend to be evening out overall.

What I do find frustrating is the sudden end game trigger. Someone suddenly leaps up 9 points in one turn and then the game is over. Meanwhile I've spent the last 4 turns gearing up to explore a skull site and will be ready next turn or have 6 goods sitting on my ships just needing one more turn to build a colony.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
Yes, I suppose this is a prime source of aggravation, though I feel as though the random glory bursts are the main culprit. If it's something I could conceivably see on the horizon it is not so bad. If someone has been gearing up for a milestone that has been on the board all game, then I should be able to gauge roughly how much time I have. It's the random 9 point swing that destroys any ability to plan.

And yes, I was the astrolabe holder on the final turn.
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David desJardins
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It seems odd that in the second year the player with the lowest score goes first, when it would generally be an advantage to go last in the second year.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
It seems odd that in the second year the player with the lowest score goes first, when it would generally be an advantage to go last in the second year.


Yeah, at least in our first few sessions I think people would have preferred the reverse order for year two.
 
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Will
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DaviddesJ wrote:
It seems odd that in the second year the player with the lowest score goes first, when it would generally be an advantage to go last in the second year.


If I could tell myself anything to change before I started the game, it would be:
When somebody hits the end game trigger, everyone gets 1 more turn (including the person who triggered it, as their bonus). If you hit the end of the season in the middle somewhere you just discard the event card and don't draw a new one. And don't do winter, just discard the event and play until the triggering player's turn.
That game ending trigger has caused so much disgust with everybody in our game. We've had games with 40-50 gold lost and no chance to buy treasure, 6 resources lost right before a colony. A boat tricked out to explore 1 turn from discovering an island. Everything lost and 4+ turns wasted.
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Sam Bookler
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MrMosfet wrote:
First, I'll set the table for the worst gaming session I have ever experienced:

I scraped out a lead over several prior sessions using the merchant and soldier. Going into the game prior to this one, I held a sizeable lead on some and was closer with others. At the end of that game, the catch-up mechanics helped the furthest behind to win but I managed to build my lead over the other two.

Going into the next game, I held a lead over all players ranging between 19 to 28 24 points. The catch-up would be painful. My plan going in was to simply accomplish some things that might carry forward to the next game.

We begin:

Spoiler (click to reveal)


- I plan to simply build a colony. I will wander around collecting cubes and build a colony and maybe buy a treasure and one building because I have the +1 glory slot for those items.

- Another player (Player 2) had pimped his advisor to be a super explorer. He will likely go after those weird skulls, those are probably the "ancient tombs" that the milestone is talking about. I imagine he'll get that, but he can only use the advisor twice this game (never have we had 3 winters), so that's ok. The explore values are so high on those tombs that nobody else can feasibly do them anyway. I suppose I should think about trying to steal his advisor but no, I'll build a colony because that'll stay around next game.

- Each other player receives 4X or 5X catch-up bonuses, sounds like fun. It's irritating to start so far behind.

- A third player, Player 3, uses some of his bonus to get +2 explore straight at the beginning of the game. Still can't get to those tombs but I guess he'll pick off some of the easier ones. He also kept an advisor that lets you use money for colonies that we all thought would be useful last game, good thing he spent most of his money! Wish I could have snagged that guy, maybe I'll try to steal him later...

- As expected, by turn 2 Player 2 has explored the tomb. WOW! 8 glory (with the milestone), that's a lot, let's see what's in the new box.

- Oh, ho; the tomb suddenly becomes 7 difficulty and there's suddenly a new milestone worth another 4 points if you can go through one without damage. Player 3 can have a go at this immediately. If he picks the right tomb, he can use his explore buff and there's another exploring advisor that can be bought.

- Player 3 picks a tomb and gets an exploring one (which I suggested to him, ironically). WOW! He did it without taking damage and got the new milestone, he got 5 glory AND he got 45 gold! Good thing he has that advisor that lets him buy colonies for gold.... that'll be another 4 points next turn.

- Turn 3, Player 2 gets some more points and Player 3 builds a colony. They're both near 10 points each and I have a couple cubes that I've sold.. At least I'll get the colony before they finish this game quickly....

- Finally! I have enough cubes, I knew I probably wasn't going to win but at least I'll get this colony and now I can grab some more points doing other things. Ooops, Player 3 has enough points that he can afford to burn all his reputation (getting a good +raid advisor that just popped up) and fortune to spend a turn raiding my ship.. Looks like I'll have to get more cubes....

- Yay! I have enough cubes and Player 3's ships are sunk/weakened. He can't get two points this turn to finish the game and I can finally build my colony. Oh, the one advisor that gives an extra point for building a structure with gold came up just before his turn..... He has JUST enough gold to buy him and a 10 cost building (because Bob the Builder gives -4 to build). I guess the game is over. I bought one treasure and can dump these goods in the sea.



Now.. I'm not sure if anyone read all that, but that wasn't much fun, to the point that I'd rather have not played that session at all and waited until they all caught up. However, I can think of a few issues that particularly suck the fun out

- Unlocking a box in the middle of the game that provides milestones / new opportunities with ZERO chance to adapt or plan for it. It's completely random whether you can profit from it or not.

- The catch-up sucks the fun out of individual games for the leader until the campaign glory is re-balanced. I'd honestly rather that they receive bonus end-game glory and/or upgrades rather than distorting the in-game balance. It's difficult to start a game knowing that you are very likely to lose and basically have to play your own mini-game with its own objectives. The sudden surges in points and unpredictable end game timing makes this harder.

- It might be worthwhile to be given some inkling regarding the importance of various types of structures and what range of rewards you can receive from various actions. Mid-game rule changes aren't terribly rewarding imo.

- take-that mechanics generally target players that are having a good game or for strategic in game reasons. In this game, they can reasonably target someone whose game has already been handicapped by catch-up mechanics and who more than likely is already in last place and already having a crappy outing. It's a double whammy of sadness. I understand the need for something to keep the campaign competitive but feel like the end game rewards or the tracking of glory should have been tweaked to avoid such occurrences.

Anyone else have some thoughts on how to enjoy the game... I'm not really drawn to the story-telling / exploring aspect but they seem to be fairly important at this point. Will it get better for someone who likes economic games and dudes on a map games. I'm committed either way, a friend bought it, but hopefully the randomness goes down....


Unfortunately, the randomness/swinginess only gets worse. My group would also agree with most of your criticisms. We finished game 9 and are on the fence, leaning no, about playing again and finishing the campaign. The last few games have been a slog and even winning an individual game due to swings of luck isn't fun for most of us.

Overall, I wouldn't rate Seafall very highly as a game. *However*, it's an amazing experiment. I love the legacy mechanic in general and I'm all for designers exploring the design space. There are glimmers of greatness in Seafall, but ultimately it falls quite short.

I think if we knew a few non-spoiler house rules going in, it would have bumped our collective rating by at least a point. (While there are some other tweaks that I think would improve the game, the main variant I'd suggest is subtracting 1-2 glory from milestones / other things that provide glory (Slight spoiler:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
tombs
).
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Temelin wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
It seems odd that in the second year the player with the lowest score goes first, when it would generally be an advantage to go last in the second year.


If I could tell myself anything to change before I started the game, it would be:
When somebody hits the end game trigger, everyone gets 1 more turn (including the person who triggered it, as their bonus). If you hit the end of the season in the middle somewhere you just discard the event card and don't draw a new one. And don't do winter, just discard the event and play until the triggering player's turn.
That game ending trigger has caused so much disgust with everybody in our game. We've had games with 40-50 gold lost and no chance to buy treasure, 6 resources lost right before a colony. A boat tricked out to explore 1 turn from discovering an island. Everything lost and 4+ turns wasted.


Yes That's what they do in suburbia. The current round is finished and everyone gets one more turn (except if the current round has just started, then that round is the last round). Either way, there's generally knowledge that this will be your last chance.
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Adam Ruzzo
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MrMosfet wrote:
It's completely random whether you can profit from it or not.


This sums up many aspects of the game, not just the "pop open new rules mid-game." I would argue that in order to be 19-24 points ahead of everyone else, you must have benefited from such random luck in previous endeavors eh?

Yeah, the game is swingy, and random, and that's why you play 15+ games. Over that many games, luck will generally balance out and generally favor the player who played more efficiently. The wild changes and upsets are one of the things that make the narrative experience more engaging. I certainly appreciate that it makes it less of a "competitive" game, but I don't think it should be billed that way. It's a narrative game with competition built on top of it.

If one does not enjoy the narrative aspect, I would not recommend the game to them.

Temelin wrote:
If I could tell myself anything to change before I started the game, it would be:
When somebody hits the end game trigger, everyone gets 1 more turn (including the person who triggered it, as their bonus). If you hit the end of the season in the middle somewhere you just discard the event card and don't draw a new one. And don't do winter, just discard the event and play until the triggering player's turn.
That game ending trigger has caused so much disgust with everybody in our game. We've had games with 40-50 gold lost and no chance to buy treasure, 6 resources lost right before a colony. A boat tricked out to explore 1 turn from discovering an island. Everything lost and 4+ turns wasted.


You realize that allowing "one more turn" would cause the exact same problem right? It doesn't fix anything, it just makes the people who were two turns away from a colony or from spending all their gold on treasure feel bad. No matter what you do, someone is going to take a gamble on when the game will end and lose. If everybody knows they get "one more turn" after the glory is reached, they'll plan for that and be wrong sometimes too.
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Bridger wrote:
MrMosfet wrote:
It's completely random whether you can profit from it or not.


This sums up many aspects of the game, not just the "pop open new rules mid-game." I would argue that in order to be 19-24 points ahead of everyone else, you must have benefited from such random luck in previous endeavors eh?

Yeah, the game is swingy, and random, and that's why you play 15+ games. Over that many games, luck will generally balance out and generally favor the player who played more efficiently. The wild changes and upsets are one of the things that make the narrative experience more engaging. I certainly appreciate that it makes it less of a "competitive" game, but I don't think it should be billed that way. It's a narrative game with competition built on top of it.

If one does not enjoy the narrative aspect, I would not recommend the game to them.

Temelin wrote:
If I could tell myself anything to change before I started the game, it would be:
When somebody hits the end game trigger, everyone gets 1 more turn (including the person who triggered it, as their bonus). If you hit the end of the season in the middle somewhere you just discard the event card and don't draw a new one. And don't do winter, just discard the event and play until the triggering player's turn.
That game ending trigger has caused so much disgust with everybody in our game. We've had games with 40-50 gold lost and no chance to buy treasure, 6 resources lost right before a colony. A boat tricked out to explore 1 turn from discovering an island. Everything lost and 4+ turns wasted.


You realize that allowing "one more turn" would cause the exact same problem right? It doesn't fix anything, it just makes the people who were two turns away from a colony or from spending all their gold on treasure feel bad. No matter what you do, someone is going to take a gamble on when the game will end and lose. If everybody knows they get "one more turn" after the glory is reached, they'll plan for that and be wrong sometimes too.


Yes, I know that one more turn sets the problem back a step to people who were two turns away; but it may ensure that those people could do SOMETHING with their treasures. It might be that the arcs to accomplish something are too long compared to the suddenness of game ending.

And, yes I was able to claim a few milestones in prior games and kept the advisor that provides a bonus glory for raiding without taking damage. However, at least those milestones are known beforehand. I raided as much as possible and did everything to complete any milestones available. I think the point differential mostly had to do with game end being sprung on people because I was last to act most times.

It's fine to have a narrative, but each game should be engaging for all players. I don't think the narrative is sufficiently compelling thus far to enjoy it on that basis alone. Playing 15+ games where some of those games are going to be awful for one player or another seems like bad design.
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Bridger wrote:
You realize that allowing "one more turn" would cause the exact same problem right? It doesn't fix anything, it just makes the people who were two turns away from a colony or from spending all their gold on treasure feel bad. No matter what you do, someone is going to take a gamble on when the game will end and lose. If everybody knows they get "one more turn" after the glory is reached, they'll plan for that and be wrong sometimes too.


Perhaps that's not the solution. However, the person that is the most likely not to get a chance to react is the person holding the astrolabe. The person holding the astrolabe is holding it because they have the lowest score. Therefore it's a mechanic that usually punishes the loser even more which from a game design perspective doesn't appear to make much sense.
Perhaps a method to convert gold or goods to points at end game would have been an idea. Also...
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Exploring a 'skull' site is usually a late game endeavor (at least in our play-through). The glory earned can by that point trigger end game. So even the winner can be rewarded with a bunch of gold they don't even get a chance to spend. Whats the point?
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Becq Starforged
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spriggster wrote:
Perhaps a method to convert gold or goods to points at end game would have been an idea.

I kind of like this idea. Perhaps something like this, as the zero'th step of the end game sequence:

Quote:
All players convert any goods they control into gold at a rate of 3 gold per good (no bonuses or penalties apply to this exchange). Then, in order of least campaign glory to most campaign glory, each player may opt to buy a single treasure card from those available for purchase. No discounts apply to this purchase. Treasures add to glory scores as normal, but no milestones may be claimed as a result of this purchase.


Note that there are many variations of this (for example, allowing multiple rounds of purchase opportunities). The above is simple. A couple of notable variations:
* Allow multiple rounds of purchases
* Use game glory rather than campaign glory
* Use current turn order (starting at the player who would have been next) rather than glory
* Allow a player to purchase an advisor instead of a treasure

A house rule like this is not going to make up for everything a player had hoped to do in their next turn or two, but does three important things:
* It gives stuff (gold and goods) some value at the end of a game
* It makes certain actions (like raiding for goods or gold) have value on the last turn of the game
* It takes some of the sting out of a sudden end to the game

(And it does these without making the game meaningfully longer.)

Any thoughts?
 
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Will
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Bridger wrote:
You realize that allowing "one more turn" would cause the exact same problem right? It doesn't fix anything, it just makes the people who were two turns away from a colony or from spending all their gold on treasure feel bad. No matter what you do, someone is going to take a gamble on when the game will end and lose. If everybody knows they get "one more turn" after the glory is reached, they'll plan for that and be wrong sometimes too.

Sorry, but couldn't disagree with you more. We've had 3 games I can distinctly remember where suddenly someone had a windfall of 8-10 points and the game was instantly over on that turn from out of nowhere. No chance to react for even a few points.
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Becq Starforged
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Temelin wrote:
Sorry, but couldn't disagree with you more. We've had 3 games I can distinctly remember where suddenly someone had a windfall of 8-10 points and the game was instantly over on that turn from out of nowhere. No chance to react for even a few points.

But wouldn't that extra turn just add another round of opportunities for players to have a windfall turn? It does reduce the *surprise* of the sudden ending, but doesn't remove the potential for disparate scores. It also lengthens the game, which may or may not appeal to all.
 
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David desJardins
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Becq wrote:
It does reduce the *surprise* of the sudden ending, but doesn't remove the potential for disparate scores.


The goal isn't to "remove" the potential (in any game some players will score more than others!), only to reduce it.

What you do on your last turn if you know it's your last turn is often very different from what you would do if you didn't know it's your last turn. The difference from knowing that it's your second to last turn is not zero either, but it's much less.
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