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Subject: PBF #17: Discussion and Trash-Talk Thread rss

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Robb Minneman
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Jackasses? You let a whole column get stalled and strafed on account of a couple of jackasses? What the hell's the matter with you?
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Here's a place for discussions that aren't directly game-related. If'n y'all want to smack-talk, or have discussions about the state of the game, or tell the moderator how wonderful he is*, then this is the place.

*Highly recommended.
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Bob Wooster
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As someone who loves the game, but hasn't had nearly enough opportunities to play, I have a general High Frontier question.

Do you guys prefer the 1st/2nd edition rule about having one black card per factory, or do you prefer the Colonization Legacy rule where you can produce as many black cards as you have the cards for at a factory (3-D printing)?

Also, do you prefer the 1st/2nd edition event cycle or the Colonization one?

I lean toward the Colonization Legacy rules, especially for the event table. It seems very gamey for another player to trigger an event in order to keep an opponent from using a Venus sling shot or landing on a comet for example. But I'd like to hear other arguments.
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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I tend to prefer Colonization Legacy. Of course the events are now fixed in time and predictive but that's better than the utter gameyness that went on before. To the point that you could blackmail other players by threatening to move over a triangle at an utterly inconvenient time.

I also much prefer the new fuel strip and lander burns that bring symmetry to take off and landings. Some folks aren't fans of the 2WT per income action which I think improves the basic game, in Legacy YMMV but nothing stops you from reverting to the 1 WT per income model, play just pure legacy in the third edition (I.e. Just add the support decks) and take advantage of the new map, fuel strip and lander rules. As for the black cards... I think it changes the dynamics a bit but it's not necessarily unbalanced, it just means that you adjust your bids accordingly and try to stop players from getting cards of the same letters or making them pay higher WT for them.
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Mustafa Ünlü
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First, Rob is awesome!

Second, given that everyone else passed, my first ever bid in this game was either a) spot on, or b) way too high.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the answer is not a.
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Francisco Colmenares
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was it 4 WT? For three cards? And this wasn't your turn? It will take you three actions to sell cards for 9 WT, opportunity cost is 3 WT, actual money spent is 4 WT. 9 - 4 - 3 = 2 WT, so you're still coming out modestly ahead and that's not counting on the fact that you likely want to keep some of the cards in the first place. I think a) is not unreasonable.
 
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Stephen Woll
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In response to the "How do you play?" Question:

1: I prefer having one upgraded card per factory.
2: I would only use the Colonization event cycle in my games anymore. I feel that was the much needed upgrade to the ruleset.
3: Depending on the game, (so each game may be different) I use a snake draft for idea turns to start the game. The auction is better, but this way speeds the game along nicely.
4: I also like using the newer point values for factories. I add in the newer generators to my deck, but a "D" site is still wild. (And also the only way to flip the few D cards as well obviously)
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Bob Wooster
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camustafa wrote:
First, Rob is awesome!

Second, given that everyone else passed, my first ever bid in this game was either a) spot on, or b) way too high.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the answer is not a.


Yes, ro(b^6) definitely rocks.

I don't think your bid was way too high. If you had bid 1, I would've considered a bid of 2.

The question is, would you rather pay 2 to get those two cards, or would you rather someone pay you 2? If the answer is the former, you played it right.
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Kyle
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High Frontier PBF #17 - Failing spaceward!
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My ideal setup is the Colonization Legacy format, with the updated solar cycle and politics track (2 WT income), and non-limited black card production, but the Pre-Colonization Legacy that we're using is good too.


The new fuel chart looks really cool, but I haven't had the chance to actually play a game with it yet.
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Mustafa Ünlü
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I admit that I was rather hoping that someone would pay me 3 WT to get them, but I now realize that was somewhat unrealistic.
 
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Mustafa Ünlü
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colmenarez wrote:
was it 4 WT? For three cards? And this wasn't your turn?


I bid on two cards for 2WT on my turn, and ended up getting them. So if I sell them both, I am only ahead by 1WT. I thought, at the time that I put them up, that I may be OK with keeping them, but I am now not so sure.

Anyway, this game will definitely be a learning experience for me.
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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camustafa wrote:
colmenarez wrote:
was it 4 WT? For three cards? And this wasn't your turn?


I bid on two cards for 2WT on my turn, and ended up getting them. So if I sell them both, I am only ahead by 1WT. I thought, at the time that I put them up, that I may be OK with keeping them, but I am now not so sure.

Anyway, this game will definitely be a learning experience for me.

Ah ok now I get it. That's not bad, as you mentioned you still come out ahead. Certain techs will be more desirable than others. Also depending on what comes next that may deflate your market if something nicer is shown to be up for auction after the current one is over.
 
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Robb Minneman
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Jackasses? You let a whole column get stalled and strafed on account of a couple of jackasses? What the hell's the matter with you?
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I much prefer Legacy High Frontier, back with the 2nd edition rules. The triangle burn to move the event track is kinda hinky, but otherwise the game is much tighter. Colonization adds too much, and it gets away from the hard science focus and into more speculative stuff.

I also hate the 2 WT per income with a passion. Part of what makes High Frontier such a difficult game is the razor-thin margin that you operate under. 1 WT per income makes the game much less forgiving.

Additionally, 2 WT per income devalues the use of the research action as an income generator. It makes the payback on free marketing cards less, and so players have less incentive to cycle the deck to generate income. That devalues the auction mechanics, and it has far-reaching effects on the play of the game. And not good ones.

This game is supposed to be very difficult. That's part of its appeal.
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Javier
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I prefer the Colonization Legacy ruleset for play. In my opinion the game is better game with this rules and I recommend Colonization with all rules to all players...the game is incredible challenging ;)
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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robbbbbb wrote:
I much prefer Legacy High Frontier, back with the 2nd edition rules. The triangle burn to move the event track is kinda hinky, but otherwise the game is much tighter. Colonization adds too much, and it gets away from the hard science focus and into more speculative stuff.

I also hate the 2 WT per income with a passion. Part of what makes High Frontier such a difficult game is the razor-thin margin that you operate under. 1 WT per income makes the game much less forgiving.

Additionally, 2 WT per income devalues the use of the research action as an income generator. It makes the payback on free marketing cards less, and so players have less incentive to cycle the deck to generate income. That devalues the auction mechanics, and it has far-reaching effects on the play of the game. And not good ones.

This game is supposed to be very difficult. That's part of its appeal.

Well, you don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water. You can always play third edition with just Legacy stuff and revert to the 1 WT. I definitely dislike the hinky aspect of the triangle so the events being fixed with a 12 space clock is much better IMO. You also get the benefits of the lander burns and fuel strip. You can also revert to a fixed 3 WT for selling cards and ignore the "variable WT" market. HF is meant to be played a la carte anyway.
 
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Dom Rougier
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Since we're derailing... personally, I'm split on the HF expansions.

I do agree that the "Full" game (Events, Support cards, etc.) is a tighter, more competitive experience, at least that's been my experience so far. If I was holding a High Frontier tournament of some kind, there's a fair chance that's what I'd go with.

With all of the colonisation modules ("Expanded"), it does push the game into more speculative territory, which is important for the bridge to Interstellar.

There are some huge differences between them. The Full game ends just as it's starting to ramp up. Phase one is the research auctions and maybe early glory runs, phase two is struggling to industrialise, phase three is a mad dash to exploit whatever low hanging fruit is left and close out the game.

With the Expanded game, phase one and two are pretty similar, but rather than phase three being a sprint for the finish, it opens out into a much wider field of options, including the possibility of using the entirety of the map, and doing some really cool things. The increased money is important to minimise the length of the early game, since the final third of the game is expanded so much.

I do think it suffers from a lack of focus. High Frontier is the most tightly competitive of all of the Sierra Madre games, and this remains even with all of the Colonisation modules, but it does loosen up quite a bit.

I'd also be more than happy to consider the 1WT/3WT sale rules as optional rules, which High Frontier certainly doesn't suffer for the lack of.

Incidentally, purely from a simulationist view, two WT per year is two heavy-lift launches (or four mediums), which should be well within the capabilities of anybody who is doing this kind of thing regularly. I appreciate that the complaint is not one of simulation though.

I usually play High Frontier with all of the expansion modules, but it's a different game with the various options turned off or on, and I think that's fine as long as you're aware of that.
 
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Robb Minneman
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Jackasses? You let a whole column get stalled and strafed on account of a couple of jackasses? What the hell's the matter with you?
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A reminder: You can leave conditional bids with the moderator. Just geekmail me with an instruction. Example: "I'm willing to bid up to 6 on the current auction." Or, "I'm willing to match bids with anyone else on this auction up to 4." Or, "I will spend my entire stack on this auction."

This can help to move the auctions along, and make sure that you don't get shut out of a crucial piece of technology when it comes up.

Also, you can leave conditional orders. "On my next turn, I'd like to move my rocket to the Sol-Earth L1 (spending two burns and eight steps of fuel), and then take an income operation."

These things help speed the game along. Feel free to discuss things with the moderator on a back-channel.
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Drake Immortalis
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https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/24393452#24393452 contradicts the rules. Eligible players are always allowed to increase their bids and are not prevented from making a bid unless the auction has ended.
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Robb Minneman
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Jackasses? You let a whole column get stalled and strafed on account of a couple of jackasses? What the hell's the matter with you?
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In the PBF format, it's impractical to have people jump back in. It leads to confusion that I'd rather not have.
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Bob Wooster
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By the game rules, you're right Drake. I wasn't withdrawing a bid, I was deciding to enter the auction.

But I don't have to do all the work to run the game, and Robbbbbb does an amazing job moderating the game. So if that helps him stay sane and makes his job easier, I'm good with it.
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Stephen Woll
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This auction is started by the honorable Shimizu corporation. The asterisk (*) is incorrect on the current auction, as are the WT/cards for PRC.
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Kyle
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High Frontier PBF #17 - Failing spaceward!
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I know there's a desire to keep the game moving, but is there any reason I wasn't allowed to raise my bid further after hearing Shimizu's preference on the tie?
 
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Robb Minneman
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Jackasses? You let a whole column get stalled and strafed on account of a couple of jackasses? What the hell's the matter with you?
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I'd previously said the auction was going to end at 2:30 PST. Sorry.
 
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Kyle
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High Frontier PBF #17 - Failing spaceward!
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We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!
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Your last post said tomorrow, not today. I assumed that meant there was more time to make a counter offer/bid.

robbbbbb wrote:
This auction will run until approximately 2:30 PST tomorrow.

Quote:
Last edited Today 8:24 am (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Posted Today 8:23 am
 
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Stephen Woll
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The current auction box is incorrect. UN won the previous auction of 2 cards for 1WT. Leaving him with 2WT and 2 hand cards. Very minor issue.

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Bob Wooster
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I don't see it. I think I should have 3 WT. I had 4, and won an auction for 1.
 
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