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Subject: Cooperative Rules rss

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Bob
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George (gwek) and I have spent the last few weeks brainstorming ideas for a set of cooperative rules for Firefly: The Game. These ideas have not been playtested yet, but we're hoping to foster feedback to help us build a solid (pun intended) foundation to build from going forward. There are still areas needing work, for example: how do we balance the effects of time (countdown), target numbers, and/or amounts for money grabs...

Cooperative Rules:

1) A "cooperative turn" consists of each player taking a sub-turn. A sub-turn consists of each player taking a normal turn (2 actions). Sub-turn order is determined by the players. In the event of an order conflict, the player who acted last during the previous cooperative turn sets the order.

2) All goals, tests and other requirements (unless otherwise specified) are shared across all players and must only be completed once. For example, if a Goal requires being Solid with 4 different Contacts, each player does not individually need to be Solid with all 4, but the team as a whole must get Solid with 4.

    2a. If two or more Crews start and remain (do not leave for any reason) in the "same" sector, they can join (combine) forces for that specific sector to work Jobs, Goals, Misbehaves, Skill Tests, etc. In so doing, they "share" a sub-turn and do not get their own sub-turn. Each combined-player gets a die roll and the "team" uses the highest result.

3) Default Countdown Timer is 20 (2 players). For each player above 2, reduce the starting count by X, where X = 2 or 4?

4) At the end of every cooperative turn, remove a countdown token. When the last token is removed, the game ends immediately. If the victory conditions are not met by the time the last token is removed, the team fails...

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Mudd Grizzly

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Oh man. I can't wait to see what you come up with.

1. Maybe each player taking a turn is a "round"? In any case,

2. Is Working the only action that can be done cooperatively? If so, maybe it makes sense to let each player take their own turns, but "helping" costs an action? That way two players can each take an action to fly somewhere and then co-op a job.

3. Game length calculation seems tough. Are you thinking there's no cap on number of players? So a co-op game could theoretically have 9 players? If so, it might be tough to make game length a linear calculation. If it takes 2 players 20 rounds, it would still take 9 players, I don't know, 6 rounds?

4. This is different from how solo games work by default, right?
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Trueflight Silverwing
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Might want to reduce the time available. As it is, the single player variant of the game has you completing all of the objectives in 20 turns. If you are going to let one player complete half of the stuff and another player completed half, then it is going to be far too easy to walk through most missions with little to no challenge with a full 20 turns to play with.
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Bob
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Good comments, keep them coming. As mentioned, balancing the effects of time (countdown) is certainly on the table. A cooperative turn consists of each player taking their own turn _or_ sharing in a combined turn with one or more other players. In neither case, can a player be involved in more than one turn beit on their own or combined. The aspects of timing are needing some tweaks, but we needed to start somewhere...

To reiterate, taking a combined turn requires the players to start and end their turn in the same sector. As a result you cannot fly into a sector on a turn and use your second action to initiate a combined turn.

(Edits: for spelling)
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Bob
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Correct, only a Work Action may be combined/shared. Are there other actions where you see this potentially occurring?

These rules are different than Solo. It is our intent to keep as much of the overall mechanics intact as possible.
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B Dent
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I love this idea! Absolutely love it. Brilliant!
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B Dent
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Ender02 wrote:
Might want to reduce the time available. As it is, the single player variant of the game has you completing all of the objectives in 20 turns. If you are going to let one player complete half of the stuff and another player completed half, then it is going to be far too easy to walk through most missions with little to no challenge with a full 20 turns to play with.


While I agree your point makes logical sense. I'm not sure that would be good.

Perhaps multiple scenarios are required for co-op so that more than one objective must be met.
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Bob
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Based on discussion here and offline, here are some adjustments:

A cooperative game uses the normal rules with the following adjustments:

1. A new type of action is available - Combined Work Action (CWA)

1a) Players starting the turn and still in the same sector, may combine their efforts
1b) Players that combine their efforts lose their second action for the turn
1c) Can be used for: Jobs, Goals, Misbehaves, Skill Tests, etc.
1d) Each player rolls a die and the Team uses the highest result
1e) Players share all results equally, good or bad. Money is split 50/50, Warrants
go to each player, Crew killed goes to each player, etc.

2. All goals, tests and other requirements (unless otherwise specified) are shared across all players and must only be completed once. For example, if a Goal requires being Solid with 4 different Contacts the team as a whole must get Solid with 4.

3. Default Countdown Timer is 20 (2 players). For each player above 2, reduce the starting count by X. 2 or 4? Needs work...

4. At the end of every turn, remove a countdown token. When the last token is removed, the game ends immediately. If the victory conditions are not met by the time the last token is removed, the Team fails...

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George Krubski
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I was going to check in to add some content, but, yep, that pretty much sums it up.

If we think about three different types of game play (standard, solo, and cooperative), some core basics apply. Unless we're looking to dramatically alter some of the basic tenets of the game, there's only so much that can be done.

* The game is a race. In standard play, you're racing against other players. In solo and coop, it's a timer.

* Each player gets a crew. This is obvious for standard and solo play. Without significantly altering game play, it must also be the standard for coop.

My experience with cooperative play is somewhat limited, but it seems like there are two options:

1) Players are asymmetrical. Each has unique talents and skills that contribute to the ultimate solution.

2) Players are essentially symmetrical. They have the same options and opportunities (in general), but the scope of the goal is so big that no one player can achieve it alone.

Unless we're looking to change some core mechanics, we're really limited to #2, so that means 2 actions per turn, X number of turns in a game, etc.

With that in mind, I think Bob has done a great job of detailing some of the conclusions that we arrived at.

The trick, of course, is in keeping the challenge level appropriate, and also in making the game feel like a coop experience rather than two solo players side by side.

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Bob
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Using my latest compilation of adjustments as our foundation, what does everyone think is the best way to integrate the elements of time (countdown), difficulty (target numbers) and monetary amounts (for money grabs) into a coop game? Not sure we can reach a balance that supports the aforementioned notion of 9 players, but with any luck we can settle on something manageable for 2-5 players?

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Roger BW
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So a combined turn still has to be two different actions - and presumably neither of them is a Fly? (Or can you Fly jointly as well, facing hazards together? What if one captain has a Pilot and the other a Mechanic?)

I think you'll need to scale difficulty with number of players: five starting captains working together might have, oh, Fight 6 Tech 6 Negotiate 3 Grifter Mechanic Pilot and Transport, which would get them through a fair few Misbehaves without ever needing to hire anyone.
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Bob
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Firedrake wrote:
So a combined turn still has to be two different actions - and presumably neither of them is a Fly? (Or can you Fly jointly as well, facing hazards together? What if one captain has a Pilot and the other a Mechanic?)


As mentioned, players starting the turn and still in the same sector may combine their efforts for a "combined work action" - CWA (new type of action). Thus all such players MUST have entered the sector on a "previous" turn using normal actions. Players combining their efforts for the CWA lose their second action for the turn.
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George Krubski
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I've been keeping an eye on this thread and had some time to contemplate while driving around for Thanksgiving.

I think exactly how we modify things depends on what we're looking to accomplish.

For example, in my mind, the Solo Turn from Awful Lonely in the Black can generally be successfully applied to other existing story cards. Is that the intention here? Do we want to create a Cooperative Turn structure that can be applied to existing story cards? Or are we looking for a construct that can be applied only to story cards specifically engineered for Coop Play?

For conversation's sake, I'm going to assume the former - that one (or, more properly, at least two!) could play a coop version of, say, Harken's Folly.

With that in mind, the next question becomes "How much to we want to force Coop Play?" For example, should players still have the same chance of completing Jobs on their own, or should they be required to work together to do so?" I have mixed feeling on this. I sort of think that, in a story card sense, target for GOALS should be increased, but targets for individual Misbehaves, Nav cards, etc, should not be.

Speaking of Nav cards... We've talked about a Cooperative Work Action. I don't see Buy or Deal working well, but what about Fly? Could folks travel "in caravan," pooling their resources for mutual safety? (If so, do Nav Cards need to become more dangerous?)

Another thing to consider: A few folks have raised the idea that any sliding scale is going to break down at some point, and I agree. For simplicity's sake, can we agree that we're talking about 2-4 or perhaps 2-5 players? If we can make that work, we can try to scale it up, but there have to be limits!

Roger correctly points out that a large group of captains working together could really rack up pretty high skills quickly. This is true, but if they work together, they're spending precious actions, so I think there's a balance there. But perhaps not enough of one.

In a side conversation, Bob suggested increasing test targets by twice the number of players (so, in a 2-player game, +4). That seems like a reasonable starting point. But perhaps it only applies to targets for Goals?

So, for example, two players decide to tackle Harken's Folly. For Goal #1, the players must still get Solid with the same 4 Contacts. Any Misbehaves for Jobs remain unchanged. So there are two different tactics: the players spread out, building up their own Crew and working a few Jobs each. Or they stay together, reduce overhead by working in concert (they'll still likely need SOME Crew), but take a slower path because of it.

Now, they get to Goal #2, which requires 3 Misbehaves and a Tech roll of 8 in normal play. For Coop Play, the targets for all Misbehave skill tests are increased +4 (although this has the side effect of making Aces MUCH more valuable). Additionally, the Tech roll requires a 12 (8 + 4). It's possible that a single player might be able to progress through this on their own, but it's not very likely. Same thing applies to the next Goal.

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Jon Snow
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Semi-Coop Play: Teams

arrrh When you consider more than 2 Players, you seem to be talking about having everyone on a single team. What about multiplayer teams competing against each other, in say two (or even three) teams of two players each? The rules you are working on now might automatically allow this version!

This might actually allow reducing game time for more players. This is a problem I've not quite encountered, maxing out at five players I think so far (in my games with GWEK added in his two annual Guest Star personal appearances traveling from NJ to Brooklyn; and we're now looking forward to a third for the upcoming holidays). But currently I have a few new player friends who have not had the pleasure of zooming out into the black yet! So I'm faced with limiting my player slots at any one game, an issue that sits on the horizon with regular play, now that I have more people to invite. I could hold a newbie training session just for them, but after that?

Team play might eventually solve the question of how to introduce more players in a single game, without making it an all day event. Teams would also still keep an exciting competitive element. During downtime between turns, teammates can be planning together and advising each other! They could even be negotiating with members of another team to trade crew or items, etc. Or is it a trick to lure the other to the same space sector to be pirated? Firefly The Game in the team version is still a race, but suddenly Teams A and B notice that Team C is in the lead, and...

...I can see games like this replicating the actual feel of people on the same ship crew working together against another crew that you often get in the actual episodes/movie, as FTG does not allow for playing an individual crew member, and Role Playing requires moving to a whole different sandbox.

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Bob
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While the group can certainly move in either direction, it was my intent with these rules to create a cooperative mechanc applicable to existing story cards. It is also our desire to retain as much of the existing rules as possible. I do not see Fly Actions working any better/worse than Buy or Deal, though my preference is we do so with work actions only.

George makes a good point about whether or not CWA should apply to Goals only. Previously we were thinking it could work for Jobs and Goals. I'm wondering if taking a CWA (Goals only) should reduce the countdown time based on the number of people involved in the CWA? This would keep the pressure on...

If so:

4. At the end of every turn, remove a countdown token, or a number of tokens equal to the largest Coop CWA for a Goal. When the last token is removed, the game ends immediately. If the victory conditions are not met by the time the last token is removed, the Team fails...

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Bob
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After a few dry runs, here's an updated set of Cooperative Rules:

A "cooperative" game uses the normal rules with the following adjustments:

1. A new type of action is available - Combined Work Action (CWA). A CWA counts as one of your normal two actions per turn.

2. Two or more Crews in the same sector may combine forces to act upon the CWA.

3. A CWA may be used when "Working" Jobs, Goals, and Misbehaves.

4. A CWA cannot be used for any other type of Action (Deal, Buy, Fly).

5. A CWA may be delayed (within the same turn) permitting other Crews to arrive. If a CWA is delayed and circumstances prevent Crews from acting upon it, this action is forfeit and cannot be replaced with another action.

6. Each Crew participating (with at least one Crew) rolls a die. Use the
highest result for the CWA check

7. Players share all results equally, good or bad. Money is split 50/50, Warrants go to each Crew, Kills goes to each Crew, etc.

8. All goals, tests and other requirements (unless otherwise specified) are shared across all players and must only be completed once. For example, if a Goal requires being Solid with 4 different Contacts, the team as a whole must get Solid with 4.

9. Default Countdown Timer is 20 (2 players). For each player above 2, reduce the starting count by X. 2 or 4? Still needs work...

10. At the end of each turn, remove a countdown token. When the last token is removed, the game ends immediately. If the victory conditions are not met before the last token is removed, the Team fails.

Please keep the questions and ideas coming... thumbsup
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Roger BW
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Rules lawyering:

1: can I Work and then CWA on my turn? How about if my Work is a Make-Work? (I'd expect "no" to both, but as a "new type of action" I think it needs to be explicit.)

I don't get point 3 - how do you Work a Misbehave separately from a Job or Goal?

6: do they add their own skills to that die roll? That seems like not a huge advantage - a reroll is only worth about +1.

7: if there's one Warrant, do they get one each? That's not sharing equally. Ditto one crew kill.
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Bob
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Firedrake wrote:
Rules lawyering:

1: can I Work and then CWA on my turn? How about if my Work is a Make-Work? (I'd expect "no" to both, but as a "new type of action" I think it needs to be explicit.)

I don't get point 3 - how do you Work a Misbehave separately from a Job or Goal?

6: do they add their own skills to that die roll? That seems like not a huge advantage - a reroll is only worth about +1.

7: if there's one Warrant, do they get one each? That's not sharing equally. Ditto one crew kill.


Good questions Roger!

1. CWA counts as a Work Action, thus your second Action cannot be a Work Action. Will add clarifying text to make clearer.

2. Not implying that Misbehaves are separate, only indicating specific circumstances wherein Crews may use CWA. A previous draft of this rule indicated Crews could not integrate CWA for Misbehaves. We could remove its mention with the understanding it's permissible for Jobs and Goals.

3. Skills are not added to the die rolls, the highest result only provides the base number upon which ALL skills/gear/abilities are added. The more die rolled, the better odds for the base value, not to mention the possibility of getting a Heroic result.

4. As mentioned, they are shared. So each participating Crew would receive a Warrant, a kill(s), a 50/50 split of funds received or owed. In terms of money, perhaps the participating Crews should have flexibility in covering amounts involved? For a debt of $4000, perhaps it's best for one Crew to cover $3000 while the other player(s) cover $1000. Seems reasonable enough...

Thanks for the comments. Fill free to offer further suggestions for improving these areas. The more the merrier...
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George Krubski
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Bob, Roger, etc., I've been thinking about this thread for a few days, and while my daughter and my parents are playing with new Christmas presents in the basement, I figured I'd take the opportunity to post some ponderings.

First, it's worth noting that this thread sort of talks about two different (but related) concepts - the shared turn itself and the broader guidelines for cooperative play.

Ashitaka wrote:
After a few dry runs, here's an updated set of Cooperative Rules:

A "cooperative" game uses the normal rules with the following adjustments:

1. A new type of action is available - Combined Work Action (CWA). A CWA counts as one of your normal two actions per turn.


Bob, I'm not suggesting arbitrary changes to your playtesting, but based on some of what I'm seeing here, especially some of the questions, it strikes me that perhaps there's a clearer way to re-phrase some of this.

If I were going to start fresh, I would probably call this a "Team-Up" action (or something like that), which can be take via a Work Action (so, when you Work, you can Work a Job, Work a Goal, Team-Up to take a shared Work Action, Make-Work, etc).

The player on whose action the Team-Up occurs is the "star" and any other players are "guests" - or something like that, just to define who's "in control" of the action.

This brings up a few questions.

First, is there a limit to the number of crews who can team up at a time?

Second, does this action take up ONE action, or ONE ACTION FOR EACH PLAYER? These are two very different options, with different "expenses." I believe the intention is the latter, although the phrasing makes it seem like it might be the former.

Quote:
2. Two or more Crews in the same sector may combine forces to act upon the CWA.

3. A CWA may be used when "Working" Jobs, Goals, and Misbehaves.

4. A CWA cannot be used for any other type of Action (Deal, Buy, Fly)


I probably should have looped these into the previous quote, since this is what I was thinking of with respect to streamlining. If this is clearly defined as a Work Action, I think #4 can be ignored, and possibly #3 as well.

More on #2 in a minute.

Quote:
5. A CWA may be delayed (within the same turn) permitting other Crews to arrive. If a CWA is delayed and circumstances prevent Crews from acting upon it, this action is forfeit and cannot be replaced with another action.


Again, this brings up the question of whether it's a single action or an action for all parties. If it's just a single action, it could be phrased as something like "You may team-up with any Crew currently in your sector."

If it's an action for each Crew, I wonder if that requires two different kinds of actions (both sub-sets of Work)? First, would be something like "hold your action" (maybe you place a taken of some kind on your ship). Second, is the combined action/team-up, where you can pool your forces with any ship currently in your sector who has taken "hold your action" action (this would require you to wait until the last crew involved to go).

Quote:
6. Each Crew participating (with at least one Crew) rolls a die. Use the highest result for the CWA check


Do crews pool their skills or roll separately?

Let's say Mal and Monty are playing (assume for a moment they don't have other Crew). Each has 2 Fight, so are both players rolling a die and adding +4, or +2? if Nandi is also there, is it three rolls at +5, or two a +2 and one at +1?

Quote:
7. Players share all results equally, good or bad. Money is split 50/50, Warrants go to each Crew, Kills goes to each Crew, etc.


Based on further discussion, this makes sense. Basically, benefits are shared and consequences are heaped on everyone equally.

What happens to a "guest" Crew where only part of the Crew works the job? Does everyone need to get paid? Just the folks on the job? (I would say that everyone needs to be paid, regardless of whether they participate, or you encourage shifting Crew into an optimal (ie, potentially abusive) configuration to avoid costs.

Also, does that captain need to be compensated in any way?

Quote:
8. All goals, tests and other requirements (unless otherwise specified) are shared across all players and must only be completed once. For example, if a Goal requires being Solid with 4 different Contacts, the team as a whole must get Solid with 4.

9. Default Countdown Timer is 20 (2 players). For each player above 2, reduce the starting count by X. 2 or 4? Still needs work...

10. At the end of each turn, remove a countdown token. When the last token is removed, the game ends immediately. If the victory conditions are not met before the last token is removed, the Team fails.

Please keep the questions and ideas coming... thumbsup


Everything else makes sense, I think.
 
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Bob
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gwek wrote:
Bob, Roger, etc., I've been thinking about this thread for a few days, and while my daughter and my parents are playing with new Christmas presents in the basement, I figured I'd take the opportunity to post some ponderings.

First, it's worth noting that this thread sort of talks about two different (but related) concepts - the shared turn itself and the broader guidelines for cooperative play.

Ashitaka wrote:
After a few dry runs, here's an updated set of Cooperative Rules:

A "cooperative" game uses the normal rules with the following adjustments:

1. A new type of action is available - Combined Work Action (CWA). A CWA counts as one of your normal two actions per turn.


Bob, I'm not suggesting arbitrary changes to your playtesting, but based on some of what I'm seeing here, especially some of the questions, it strikes me that perhaps there's a clearer way to re-phrase some of this.

If I were going to start fresh, I would probably call this a "Team-Up" action (or something like that), which can be take via a Work Action (so, when you Work, you can Work a Job, Work a Goal, Team-Up to take a shared Work Action, Make-Work, etc).

The player on whose action the Team-Up occurs is the "star" and any other players are "guests" - or something like that, just to define who's "in control" of the action.

This brings up a few questions.

First, is there a limit to the number of crews who can team up at a time?

Second, does this action take up ONE action, or ONE ACTION FOR EACH PLAYER? These are two very different options, with different "expenses." I believe the intention is the latter, although the phrasing makes it seem like it might be the former.

Quote:
2. Two or more Crews in the same sector may combine forces to act upon the CWA.

3. A CWA may be used when "Working" Jobs, Goals, and Misbehaves.

4. A CWA cannot be used for any other type of Action (Deal, Buy, Fly)


I probably should have looped these into the previous quote, since this is what I was thinking of with respect to streamlining. If this is clearly defined as a Work Action, I think #4 can be ignored, and possibly #3 as well.

More on #2 in a minute.

Quote:
5. A CWA may be delayed (within the same turn) permitting other Crews to arrive. If a CWA is delayed and circumstances prevent Crews from acting upon it, this action is forfeit and cannot be replaced with another action.


Again, this brings up the question of whether it's a single action or an action for all parties. If it's just a single action, it could be phrased as something like "You may team-up with any Crew currently in your sector."

If it's an action for each Crew, I wonder if that requires two different kinds of actions (both sub-sets of Work)? First, would be something like "hold your action" (maybe you place a taken of some kind on your ship). Second, is the combined action/team-up, where you can pool your forces with any ship currently in your sector who has taken "hold your action" action (this would require you to wait until the last crew involved to go).

Quote:
6. Each Crew participating (with at least one Crew) rolls a die. Use the highest result for the CWA check


Do crews pool their skills or roll separately?

Let's say Mal and Monty are playing (assume for a moment they don't have other Crew). Each has 2 Fight, so are both players rolling a die and adding +4, or +2? if Nandi is also there, is it three rolls at +5, or two a +2 and one at +1?

Quote:
7. Players share all results equally, good or bad. Money is split 50/50, Warrants go to each Crew, Kills goes to each Crew, etc.


Based on further discussion, this makes sense. Basically, benefits are shared and consequences are heaped on everyone equally.

What happens to a "guest" Crew where only part of the Crew works the job? Does everyone need to get paid? Just the folks on the job? (I would say that everyone needs to be paid, regardless of whether they participate, or you encourage shifting Crew into an optimal (ie, potentially abusive) configuration to avoid costs.

Also, does that captain need to be compensated in any way?

Quote:
8. All goals, tests and other requirements (unless otherwise specified) are shared across all players and must only be completed once. For example, if a Goal requires being Solid with 4 different Contacts, the team as a whole must get Solid with 4.

9. Default Countdown Timer is 20 (2 players). For each player above 2, reduce the starting count by X. 2 or 4? Still needs work...

10. At the end of each turn, remove a countdown token. When the last token is removed, the game ends immediately. If the victory conditions are not met before the last token is removed, the Team fails.

Please keep the questions and ideas coming... thumbsup


Everything else makes sense, I think.



George, we can call the Action whatever we want, though I don't see Team-Up terminology being any better or worse than Combined Work Action. The key I think you'll agree, is having clear, easily understood rules without undue complexity or confusion.

NO specific limit to the number of players using CWA has been made, though our previous discussion focused on having something supporting 2-5 players.

Based on the rules in their current form, it takes an Action from EACH Crew/Player to participate in the CWA.

I don't see a reason for having STAR/CONTROLLING/GUEST players. The ability to Delay your CWA gives Crews the ability to cooperate, communicate and move as desired in their effort to act upon the CWA. Not sure why or how it matters whose turn it occurs on?

Items 3 & 4 were spelled out for clarification sake. This being based on questions posed and messages sent to me asking for such. I'm all for streamlining the rules when we have established an acceptable set of rules.

Each Crew "participating" in the CWA (with at least 1 Crew) rolls a die. Take the highest result rolled; including potential for Thrillin Heroics and possible re-rolls. Take the highest overall result of those participating, and add/pool the appropriate skills, gear and special abilities. Using your Nandi example, this equates to 3 rolls at +5. Take the highest of these results and compare it to the target number in the normal manner.

Good question about Crews getting Their Cut. My suggestion is everyone gets their cut per the normal rules.





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Ashitaka wrote:
George, we can call the Action whatever we want, though I don't see Team-Up terminology being any better or worse than Combined Work Action. The key I think you'll agree, is having clear, easily understood rules without undue complexity or confusion.


Agreed. And that's why I'm recommending using terms that don't previously exist. I'm thinking of the headaches causes by Fugitives vs fugitives, among other things.

Regardless of what we call it, to me, the important element here is that it's NOT a new type of Action, but rather a new option for a WORK Action.

Quote:
NO specific limit to the number of players using CWA has been made, though our previous discussion focused on having something supporting 2-5 players.


Agreed, but I wasn't sure if anything in playtesting changed it.

Quote:
Based on the rules in their current form, it takes an Action from EACH Crew/Player to participate in the CWA.


Thanks, that's what I assumed.

Quote:
I don't see a reason for having STAR/CONTROLLING/GUEST players. The ability to Delay your CWA gives Crews the ability to cooperate, communicate and move as desired in their effort to act upon the CWA. Not sure why or how it matters whose turn it occurs on?


To me, it's important because although players are cooperating, they're not always going to be 100% in sync. I do think it's important to outline who has "final say" on the action.

Fact is, as defined, different rules DO unofficially govern the "active" action vs. the passive one, so why not codify it?

Quote:
Items 3 & 4 were spelled out for clarification sake. This being based on questions posed and messages sent to me asking for such. I'm all for streamlining the rules when we have established an acceptable set of rules.


Check.

Quote:
Each Crew "participating" in the CWA (with at least 1 Crew) rolls a die. Take the highest result rolled; including potential for Thrillin Heroics and possible re-rolls. Take the highest overall result of those participating, and add/pool the appropriate skills, gear and special abilities. Using your Nandi example, this equates to 3 rolls at +5. Take the highest of these results and compare it to the target number in the normal manner.


Thanks for the clarity. That was my assumptions based on previous conversation, and the direction I had been headed originally.

In retrospect, though, I'm wondering if it's too much. You sort of get a "double bonus" when working with another crew - not only do you get to improve your flat number (likely significantly), but you also increase your changes of getting a good result to add to it. There are few "standard" challenges that would remain especially challenging, I think.

Quote:
Good question about Crews getting Their Cut. My suggestion is everyone gets their cut per the normal rules.


Thanks. Just wanted to clarify.
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gwek wrote:
Ashitaka wrote:
George, we can call the Action whatever we want, though I don't see Team-Up terminology being any better or worse than Combined Work Action. The key I think you'll agree, is having clear, easily understood rules without undue complexity or confusion.


Agreed. And that's why I'm recommending using terms that don't previously exist. I'm thinking of the headaches causes by Fugitives vs fugitives, among other things.

Regardless of what we call it, to me, the important element here is that it's NOT a new type of Action, but rather a new option for a WORK Action.

Quote:
NO specific limit to the number of players using CWA has been made, though our previous discussion focused on having something supporting 2-5 players.


Agreed, but I wasn't sure if anything in playtesting changed it.

Quote:
Based on the rules in their current form, it takes an Action from EACH Crew/Player to participate in the CWA.


Thanks, that's what I assumed.

Quote:
I don't see a reason for having STAR/CONTROLLING/GUEST players. The ability to Delay your CWA gives Crews the ability to cooperate, communicate and move as desired in their effort to act upon the CWA. Not sure why or how it matters whose turn it occurs on?


To me, it's important because although players are cooperating, they're not always going to be 100% in sync. I do think it's important to outline who has "final say" on the action.

Fact is, as defined, different rules DO unofficially govern the "active" action vs. the passive one, so why not codify it?

Quote:
Items 3 & 4 were spelled out for clarification sake. This being based on questions posed and messages sent to me asking for such. I'm all for streamlining the rules when we have established an acceptable set of rules.


Check.

Quote:
Each Crew "participating" in the CWA (with at least 1 Crew) rolls a die. Take the highest result rolled; including potential for Thrillin Heroics and possible re-rolls. Take the highest overall result of those participating, and add/pool the appropriate skills, gear and special abilities. Using your Nandi example, this equates to 3 rolls at +5. Take the highest of these results and compare it to the target number in the normal manner.


Thanks for the clarity. That was my assumptions based on previous conversation, and the direction I had been headed originally.

In retrospect, though, I'm wondering if it's too much. You sort of get a "double bonus" when working with another crew - not only do you get to improve your flat number (likely significantly), but you also increase your changes of getting a good result to add to it. There are few "standard" challenges that would remain especially challenging, I think.

Quote:
Good question about Crews getting Their Cut. My suggestion is everyone gets their cut per the normal rules.


Thanks. Just wanted to clarify.



Perhaps we could use CWA as written, but instead of calling it a new Action, we add it to the list of existing Work Actions already available?

Perhaps all Crews particpating in the CWA are considered "Active" only during the process of actually resolving the CWA. Otherwise, they are only active during their respective turns.

Agreed on the baseline improvement multiple Crews offer over 1 Crew. 1 roll with a +5 vice 3 rolls with a +5 speaks for itself. At the risk of needing to increase the difficulty number for single vs. multiple Crew tests, I'm working on a potential offset idea. It needs more work, but for now I'm thinking we offset the challenge difficulty by reducing the Countdown timer according to the largest number of Crews involved in a CWA during the turn (as opposed to 1 per turn). Using your Nandi example, the countdown timer is reduced by "3" instead of 1. Thoughts?

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Radical thought here: What if, in addition to the base number of turns being set by the number of players, each use of a mutli-player action uses a token from the timer?
 
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gwek wrote:
Radical thought here: What if, in addition to the base number of turns being set by the number of players, each use of a mutli-player action uses a token from the timer?


Interesting idea. Is the cost paid per Crew involved in a CWA (when they take such action)? Thus using your Nandi example, the 3 Crews involved would each spend 1 countdown token (3 overall) for the CWA.

Poses some interesting dynamics when you spend such points and something goes awry preventing the CWA attempt prematurely. I'm liking this already, but needs some play-testing. cool
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My initial thought was that it's per use of the action, not tiered by Crew, but what do I know?

I guess I figure if you've gone through the effort of getting three or four Crew to the same sector, good for you!
 
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