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Arkham Horror: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: On Wings of Darkness: Movement Question rss

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Dale Buonocore
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Warren
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In the second Scenario, I drew On the Wings of Darkness (which would, among other things, move me to a Central location if I failed the Agility test) while I was in Rivertown, which is the only Central location in this scenario. On page 15 of the Rules Reference it says: "When an entity or game element moves, it cannot move to its same (current) placement. If there is no valid destination for a move, the move cannot be attempted."

So, should I just discard this card with no effect and feel lucky that this Nightgaunt didn't see me as it flew over...?! Or would the Nightgaunt just pick me up and drop me back in another part of Rivertown, bruised and shaken?
 
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Jan Probst
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Kiel
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It'd still do the damage from the first part of the card, but the move portion would/could not resolve.
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Dee
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My interpretation would be to take the damage and horror, disengage from any non-Nightgaunts, stay at the location.

edit: with regard to how the disengagement would be applied (assuming it's supposed to be applied in this situation!), it would immediately re-engage using the regular rules (Aloof-type excepted). So if multiple investigators are at that location, and assuming no Prey preference, the lead investigator would select with whom the enemy re-engages and, since no actual movement takes place, I suspect this could still be the original investigator.

The card in question, spoilered because spoilers,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
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Oliver Broom
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Because the card explicitly states to do one thing, then another, you should do the first, and ignore the second, treating them each as separate events.
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mplain
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"Then" effects are a very special beast. I suggest you read this rules entry: http://arkhamdb.com/rules#Then

To answer your question: you'd take damage and horror, disengage from enemies, and fail to move. The enemies would immediately re-engage you.
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Dale Buonocore
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Thanks, everyone, for the quick and most helpful responses!
 
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Adam D.
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Where is the "central" keyword defined?

Yes, i can make the obvious conclusion its rivertown in the second scenario, but i was taken aback when i couldnt find a keyword reference. Did i miss the rule for "central?"
 
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Christian Kløve
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TheCollector wrote:
Where is the "central" keyword defined?

Yes, i can make the obvious conclusion its rivertown in the second scenario, but i was taken aback when i couldnt find a keyword reference. Did i miss the rule for "central?"


Central is not a keyword, it is a trait, found a the top of the textbox for the location.
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Pickle the Hutt
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mplain wrote:
"Then" effects are a very special beast. I suggest you read this rules entry: http://arkhamdb.com/rules#Then

To answer your question: you'd take damage and horror, disengage from enemies, and fail to move. The enemies would immediately re-engage you.


The rules on "then" in this case are still unclear (from a logic point of view at least).

Whether the test is passed or not, the sentence preceding "then" has resolved as a logical statement.

It seems to me that this card thus causes disengagement and movement regardless of skill test result (obviously the damage/horror is only for a failed test).

I've searched everywhere for an answer to this and would love a clear response to whether the rules follow standard logic rules or if they are using their own.

Note the logic rule to which I am refering: if..., then... statements are true in the case of the "if" being false regardless of the truth of the following.
 
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Pickle the Hutt
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On reading the rule and the card again, I'm even more convinced that the disengage and move is separate from the test.

Reasoning:
"If A, B" is well understood logically as a shorter way of writing "If A, then B"

The "Then," beginning the next sentence is being using purely as a transition from the first step of the card (test and maybe take damage/horror) to the second step of the card (disengage and move). This "Then," can't be part of a conditional statement as there is no second "if".

Of course the movement can't occur in the OP's case as they were already at the location.
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mplain
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Arkham rulebook:
Quote:
Then
If the effect of an ability includes the word "then," the text preceding the word "then" must be successfully resolved in full before the remainder of the effect described after the word "then" can be resolved.

Thrones rulebook:
Quote:
The word "Then"
If the effect text of an ability includes the word "then," the text preceding the word "then" must be successfully resolved in full (i.e. the game state changes to reflect the intent of the pre-then aspect of the effect in its entirety) before the remainder of the effect described after the word "then" can be resolved.

The games state needs to change to reflect the intent of the pre-then aspect of the effect in its entirety, in order for the pre-then aspect to be considered to have successfully resolved in full.
No change of game state = no successful resolution in full. Even if logically the pre-then statement if true.

This is how it works in Thrones. I assume it works the same way in Arkham.
 
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Christian Kløve
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mplain wrote:
Arkham rulebook:
Quote:
Then
If the effect of an ability includes the word "then," the text preceding the word "then" must be successfully resolved in full before the remainder of the effect described after the word "then" can be resolved.

Thrones rulebook:
Quote:
The word "Then"
If the effect text of an ability includes the word "then," the text preceding the word "then" must be successfully resolved in full (i.e. the game state changes to reflect the intent of the pre-then aspect of the effect in its entirety) before the remainder of the effect described after the word "then" can be resolved.

The games state needs to change to reflect the intent of the pre-then aspect of the effect in its entirety, in order for the pre-then aspect to be considered to have successfully resolved in full.
No change of game state = no successful resolution in full. Even if logically the pre-then statement if true.

This is how it works in Thrones. I assume it works the same way in Arkham.


Again Game of Thrones rules have no bearing on Arkham Horror the card game.
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mplain
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They might help understand how things work here. If you're still unconvinced, you could ask the designer of course
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soulblight
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picklethehutt wrote:
The "Then," beginning the next sentence is being using purely as a transition from the first step of the card (test and maybe take damage/horror) to the second step of the card (disengage and move). This "Then," can't be part of a conditional statement as there is no second "if".


There is only pre-Then, and post-Then. There is no If.

Then wrote:
If the effect of an ability includes the word "then," the text preceding the word "then" must be successfully resolved in full before the remainder of the effect described after the word "then" can be resolved.

-If the pre-then aspect of an effect does successfully resolve in full, the post-then aspect of the effect must also resolve.
-The post-then aspect of an effect has timing priority over all other indirect consequences of the resolution of the pre-then aspect. (For example, if an effect reads: "Draw an encounter card. Then, take 1 horror," and a player controls an ability that reads "After you draw an encounter card," the post-then "take 1 horror" aspect occurs before the "After you draw an encounter card" ability may initiate.)
-If the pre-then aspect of an effect does not successfully resolve in full, the post-then aspect does not resolve.
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Scott Dockery
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mplain wrote:
The games state needs to change to reflect the intent of the pre-then aspect of the effect in its entirety, in order for the pre-then aspect to be considered to have successfully resolved in full.
No change of game state = no successful resolution in full. Even if logically the pre-then statement if true.


Except you do change the game state to fully resolve the Agility test. You go through all the steps in the test resolution. You start in state 1 (preparing to make the test) and end in state 2 (done with the test). In the process, you might commit cards or play events, and you might resolve the test's consequences. The test may not have a pass effect to resolve, but the test itself has still resolved if you pass it.

A test, once initiated, will always resolve (barring external factors, such as the room catching on fire before you draw the token).
 
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Christian Kløve
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rsdockery wrote:
mplain wrote:
The games state needs to change to reflect the intent of the pre-then aspect of the effect in its entirety, in order for the pre-then aspect to be considered to have successfully resolved in full.
No change of game state = no successful resolution in full. Even if logically the pre-then statement if true.


Except you do change the game state to fully resolve the Agility test. You go through all the steps in the test resolution. You start in state 1 (preparing to make the test) and end in state 2 (done with the test). In the process, you might commit cards or play events, and you might resolve the test's consequences. The test may not have a pass effect to resolve, but the test itself has still resolved if you pass it.

A test, once initiated, will always resolve (barring external factors, such as the room catching on fire before you draw the token).


Which, again, is why you should not use Game of Thrones rules for AH:lcg. The RR does not refer to a change in game state, but to the first part resolving, which is not the same.
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Scott Dockery
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Ack, I mis-scanned the post when cutting out the quote and responded to the wrong half! gulp

Regardless, the point still stands; you do resolve the Agility test, whether it changes the game state or not. The ambiguity is whether the word "then" refers to you resolving the damage and horror (which only happens if you fail the test) or to you resolving the test itself (which always happens). Grammatically, it should be the latter, but the former makes more thematic sense (you passed the test, so you "dodged" them).

Of course, you can come up with a thematic justification for the grammatical reading, too (Nightguants aren't necessarily hostile, so maybe they're not trying to hurt you and the test is just to avoid a rough landing). And you can't even use the Grim rule, because a forced move can be either good or bad in different contexts!

I'm sticking with the grammatically accurate reading until the devs clarify it, just because I find the evidence more compelling.
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mplain
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rsdockery wrote:
The ambiguity is whether the word "then" refers to you resolving the damage and horror (which only happens if you fail the test) or to you resolving the test itself (which always happens).

This... actually makes sense.
 
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Christian Kløve
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rsdockery wrote:
I'm sticking with the grammatically accurate reading until the devs clarify it, just because I find the evidence more compelling.


It depends what is meant by 'the text preceding the word "then":

Quote:
Then
If the effect of an ability includes the word "then," the text preceding the word "then" must be successfully resolved in full before the remainder of the effect described after the word "then" can be resolved.


You could argue, and I would, that this refers only to the sentence immediately preceding the "then" setence, aka the "if" setence. From a logical point of view that makes sense ("if ... then") and as you say it also makes sense from a thematic point of view. And while Nightgaunts might not try to hurt you, I don't think you can explain the lack of horror inflicted when picked up by an unseen creature and flown somewhere else.

 
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mplain
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Matt answered this:
Quote:
Greetings!

The “pre-then” effect in this case is taking 1 horror and 1 damage. If you pass the test, nothing happens.

Hope that helps. =)

Matthew Newman
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