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Subject: Oh shoot, no co-op... rss

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Peter Andersson
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This sounds like the kind of game that I'm looking for and also missing in my collection. City building sounds like so much fun!
Too bad it isn't a co-op, that means I'll probably not back this (unless it's really cheap).
In either case I'm sure this campaign will be a huge success. All backers of gloomhaven are bound to be back for this one! What a great campaign it has been!
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rgjoe77 -
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A shame then that solo or full coop option will not be there. Too bad I won't pledge once it go live due to those missing elements.
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Isaac Childres
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A solo option is in the works, but I didn't want to over-promise before it was fully developed.
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Peter Andersson
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Cephalofair wrote:
A solo option is in the works, but I didn't want to over-promise before it was fully developed.

I suppose that means "solo" and not solo/co-op?
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Isaac Childres
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Right, I wouldn't count on a co-op mode in a competitive game.
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Peter Andersson
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Cephalofair wrote:
Right, I wouldn't count on a co-op mode in a competitive game.

Point taken. Although I wouldn't expect playing a competitive game solo either, if you're going to compete I would expect there to be someone to compete with.
So if you could compete solo, I thought that there might be a chance to compete cooperatively too.
But never mind, thanks for answering and good luck with the campaign. This sounds like an awesome game!
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Isaac Childres
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Sorry, I didn't mean to sound flippant. Normally you might expect that solo could lead to co-op, but I personally hate co-ops that encourage alpha-player behavior. If I there were to be a co-op option, it would need to combat the alpha player in some way, which would necessarily add in extra mechanics/components, which is something I wouldn't count on at this point.
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I realy like co-op, so I will be missing it, even though I'm sure its worth supporting, even without it.
I understand the Problem with alpha-players, but maybe (with the help of the comunity) you can find a way..

so to lead with a good example, if you need playtesters or ideas to counter alpha behavior just ask
maybe I and hopefully a lot of the comunity can help!
if I remember correckly the 1-Player variant from Scythe is comunity made?
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Peter Andersson
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Cephalofair wrote:
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound flippant. Normally you might expect that solo could lead to co-op, but I personally hate co-ops that encourage alpha-player behavior. If I there were to be a co-op option, it would need to combat the alpha player in some way, which would necessarily add in extra mechanics/components, which is something I wouldn't count on at this point.

No worries!
Personally I have yet to experience the alpha player. (Or is that because I'm the alpha player?)
In any case I certainly respect that you don't want to include game mechanics that you don't feel that you can stand behin. That says a lot about you as a game designer. No cutting corners or releasing half finished variants just to please the community. That's also something that I deeply respect!
Who knows, perhaps the next time. Or perhaps the community will come up with something (as suggested above).
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RavenMad
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baghaan wrote:
if I remember correckly the 1-Player variant from Scythe is comunity made?


Nope, it's made by the Automa Factory (Morten Monrad Pedersen & friends). But, having said that, I think community assistance on a co-op mode would be good.
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Peter Andersson
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Adrian_vN wrote:
I think community assistance on a co-op mode would be good.

The big problem is usually to get someone to actually do it!
 
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Rick
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Co op would have had my interest go from high to zero. Funny how there's always 2 sides.
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Vincent de Wildt
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I really like competitive games much more then cooperative. I like the tension between battling each other for the win. I dislike co-ops the most because of the alpha player syndrom which almost always comes up in every co-op.

thankfully this will be a competitive game as so many games nowadays seems to be co-ops.
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Peter Andersson
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Darkman wrote:
I really like competitive games much more then cooperative. I like the tension between battling each other for the win. I dislike co-ops the most because of the alpha player syndrom which almost always comes up in every co-op.

thankfully this will be a competitive game as so many games nowadays seems to be co-ops.

Hehe, I think that's a matter of opinion. In my eyes there aren't enough co-op games.
Besides that, a co-op variant doesn't mean that the competitive variant ceases to exist. It's a variant...
I just don't get why some people (I'm not targeting you, so please don't take this personally) are so against co-op but perfectly fine with solo...
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rgjoe77 -
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Ahhh...good. At last there's solo option in the works...whew ! :-)
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Dano Fish
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lugiber wrote:
Darkman wrote:
I really like competitive games much more then cooperative. I like the tension between battling each other for the win. I dislike co-ops the most because of the alpha player syndrom which almost always comes up in every co-op.

thankfully this will be a competitive game as so many games nowadays seems to be co-ops.

Hehe, I think that's a matter of opinion. In my eyes there aren't enough co-op games.
Besides that, a co-op variant doesn't mean that the competitive variant ceases to exist. It's a variant...
I just don't get why some people (I'm not targeting you, so please don't take this personally) are so against co-op but perfectly fine with solo...


I've never really played solo, but my personal feeling about co-op is that losing a co-op is usually more fantastically exciting than winning is. My experience is that when you lose a co-op it's often pretty dramatic, with people exclaiming something like: "NOO!!! We Lost! Man if we had only done this! I can't believe __________(fill in the blank)_____________ just happened!!" etc. With lots of dynamic and enthused conversation following.

Whereas when you win it more often feels like "Ah, ok, that's done. We completed our objective. Cool, what should we play next?"

Of course this is a broad generalization, sometimes a co-op win IS very exciting. But I'm just generally less thrilled about games where losing is usually more exciting than winning.

That said, I'll play just about anything that gets people to the table!!
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C&H Schmidt
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I love co-ops (apart from Android: Netrunner at the top spot, my top five games are co-ops), but I find it a bit odd to expect a cooperative variant in a competitive game or to use the lack of a cooperative mode as a point of criticism.
Many competitive games are inherently competitive and thus cannot just quickly be made cooperative with a simple variant (or at least not one that works well). In many instances, that goes completely against the point and core of the game.

To the OP: You write (I paraphrase) "this is exactly the kind of game I'm looking for and that's missing in my collection -- except it's not co-op". Actually, if you're looking for a co-op, this is probably just NOT the kind of game you are looking for...
Which is ok, not all games are for everyone.

I think games should do what they do well, instead of trying to do all the things at once (competitive, co-op AND solo!).
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Pauly Paul
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lugiber wrote:
This sounds like the kind of game that I'm looking for and also missing in my collection. City building sounds like so much fun!
Too bad it isn't a co-op, that means I'll probably not back this (unless it's really cheap).
In either case I'm sure this campaign will be a huge success. All backers of gloomhaven are bound to be back for this one! What a great campaign it has been!


rgjoe77 wrote:
A shame then that solo or full coop option will not be there. Too bad I won't pledge once it go live due to those missing elements.


I'm curious, why does the game need to be co-op?
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Peter Andersson
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venrondua wrote:
I'm curious, why does the game need to be co-op?

It doesn't have to be. It's just that co-ops hit the table 90% of the times when I play.
I find playing co-ops are a much more social experience that competitive games. And I really enjoy discussing tactics and strategies with my fellow gamers rather than quietly scheming against them.
Besides that, co-ops are generally easier to teach inexperienced players since you can help them with cards etc during the game.

And please note that I'm speaking in general from my own perspective here. I will not partake in a co-op vs competitive discussion. Needless to say, they both have their pros and cons.
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Jo Bartok
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Cephalofair wrote:
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound flippant. Normally you might expect that solo could lead to co-op, but I personally hate co-ops that encourage alpha-player behavior. If I there were to be a co-op option, it would need to combat the alpha player in some way, which would necessarily add in extra mechanics/components, which is something I wouldn't count on at this point.


You nailed it.
 
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Jo Bartok
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No euro game fan here but I will be inclined.
If it is in any way as good as Puerto Rico, Infamy, Alien Frontiers, Viticulture or Francis Drake, (and maybe Glen More)I will be inclined.

Solitaire + coop is usually a BIG RED FLAG.
Good collaborative games usually can't be played alone: Hanabi, Say Bye To The Villains, Shadows over Camelot, etc.
Thus I can imagine the solo to be a race against limits; engine building.
However the great aspects about the euros I named above all have to do with player interaction.

Curious!
Will you present this game alongside Gloomhaven at Essen Spiel 17?
 
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Felix Scholz
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ionas wrote:

Curious!
Will you present this game alongside Gloomhaven at Essen Spiel 17?


I very much doubt it.
First of all because Isaac said that he isn't even sure if he would be at Essen 2017, considering 2016 didn't work out the way he would have liked it to (http://www.cephalofair.com/2016/10/experience-essen-spiel.ht... Server seems to be unavaible right now. Hope its the correct link.)
Also if the Kickstarter goes live in Feburary I don't think there would be much more to present than a prototype by October. Since most people decide whether to give a game a chance on a quick glance, I guess demoing a prototype wouldn't really be worth the trouble.

But maybe Isaac will suprise me. (and I sure hope he does )
 
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Drew Olds
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Yeah- I think most games don't really work with a co-op mode and competitive mode. Most of the time, one of them is a sort of slapped on addition with poor balance.

Sometime they can work- there are some dungeon crawlers where the GM player can be replaced without too much trouble, but more often they just don't work.

That's a bit of a shame for me- I'm more interested in co-op games right now, but I'd still rather they just did this one right and let it be what it is.
 
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Trevor Steinke
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I imagine this game being played much like my group plays Tsuro. Yes, it's "competitive" but we mainly play it to help everyone else along the path. If it comes down to you or me, no choice, then by all means me. But otherwise if it helps everyone it's better.

Similarly, while not turning the game cooperative, this mental attitude while playing makes games much less cutthroat.

Instead of a mad scramble for power and wealth and control, actually working together to build the best city possible is an option.

Not sure how much a hit the replayability will take though.
 
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I'm so glad it's not co-op. I've been so tired of seeing so many interesting sounding games being turn offs for being co-op only.
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