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Subject: Battle Hexes rss

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Has_hecho_trampas Has_hecho_trampas
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Hi,

I am playing a game and some questions arose.

1.- Can the active player declare a battle hex even if there are no units? Imagine the american attacks with a carrier to block the fleet, but me as the Japanese manadge to eliminate the ship with submarines. Will be the hex still considered as a battle hex?

2.- The Allied player has posicioned some carriers in some islands that I might need to move air troops to the battle, could I still use them? Can I declare those island battle hexes as the deffender?

3.-This one is almost clear but I might need just to confirm things. I know that as a deffensive player I just can use 1ASP. Can I move 1ASP without any escolt to a battle hex?

Thanks!
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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Has_hecho_trampas wrote:
Hi,

I am playing a game and some questions arose.

Awesome sauce let's hear them!

Has_hecho_trampas wrote:
1.- Can the active player declare a battle hex even if there are no units? Imagine the american attacks with a carrier to block the fleet, but me as the Japanese managed to eliminate the ship with submarines. Will be the hex still considered as a battle hex?

Naturally! Follow the sequence of play, you will notice that declaring battle hexes occurs before the the reaction player gets to play attack cards.

Has_hecho_trampas wrote:
2.- The Allied player has positioned some carriers in some islands that I might need to move air troops to the battle, could I still use them? Can I declare those island battle hexes as the defender?

You can still use them to move air units too the carriers can't prevent you from doing that. As the defender you cannot declare battle hexes. The only way the defender creates battle hexes is rolling for them via Special Reaction.

Has_hecho_trampas wrote:
3.-This one is almost clear but I might need just to confirm things. I know that as a defensive player I just can use 1 ASP. Can I move 1 ASP without any escort to a battle hex?

That depends. Assuming the offensive player does not have a naval unit in the battle hex then yes you can. Otherwise you can't. Basically the escort requirement applies to both Offensive and Reaction players. This is why as a reaction player it's useful to keep potential AA reaction units with naval units.

Has_hecho_trampas wrote:
Thanks!

You're welcome friend "You_have_cheated"!
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Gwal Gwal
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I think question 1 may need some clarification.

You can't declare a battle hex without a unit to fight. The US CV would have to move to a legal location from which it could attack an enemy unit, a hex with a major port, or a hex from where it can support a friendly AMPH assault unit which has reached it's target hex either before or with the CV that's supporting it. I may be misunderstanding your questions, but you can't move a CV just to provide an AZOI. The third paragraph of 8.21 tells where a naval unit can move.

After that the reaction player will activate and move units before the submarine attack so if that CV is cutting off an HQ that HQ won't be able to clear the CVs AZOI with a sub attack until after activations and moves for the reaction player are complete.
 
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Has_hecho_trampas Has_hecho_trampas
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Thanks Paco!

1. I think so, the think is that sounds a little bit weird to declare a battle hex without any battle.

2. Yep I knew the Special reaction, but since there was no AA in those hexes, I as non-active player I cannot declare those spaces as battle hexes.

3. It is my first serious game, and I knew I made a mistake...it's a pitty learning the hard way, it is sometimes the only way, though.

4. If there is an AA in an airbase without any escolt, can I move a carrier to join other battle and at the same time make losses in the non-escolted AA?

Cheers!

Edit: I assume I can use more than one submarine card per combat.
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Has_hecho_trampas Has_hecho_trampas
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Sorry. The question 1:

The Escolt carrier just move to declare a battle hex to prevent my japanese fleet to react properly to the real battle.

The others move in such a way that they could lead to block the airfields as well as to participate in the main battle.

Cheers!
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Gwal Gwal
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Looks like I was wrong about the situation in your Example 1.

On question 4 above. If the AA hex was declared a battle hex then your CV would have to participate in the battle in that hex if it moves in. If the AA hex is not a battle hex the CV could move there and participate in a battle hex elsewhere, but would not reduce the attacking AA unit. 8.45 B second paragraph.

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Francisco Colmenares
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I believe Gwal is correct here. Also you can use more than one submarine card, the maximum limit is three reaction cards.
 
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Has_hecho_trampas Has_hecho_trampas
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I hope that the images might help to see what I was trying to say.

In the Figure 1 it can be the gerenal map. The American player declared 2 battle hexes: Truk and Rabaul. It can be as well the partial reaction of the Japanese player (me), moving all that can be moved tryng to hold the invasion by winning the naval battle. The only reaction movement that was not shown is the 28AF that could virtually move from Ponape to Buin via Baka.

The idea is to hold the main Japanese fleet in Truk while an AA is made in Rabaul, throwing virtually all that is possible. As well the idea of the american player is to diffcult in the possible reinforcements from the marianes.

It can be seen that there are actually naval units in Rabaul.

I think everything is quite clear: no ASP reaction possible, 28AF can go to the battle, Truk will be a battle even if there is no carrier and no double battle for the carriers (defend either Rabaul or Kavieng).

Last question: The marines 1M and 2M came had to come with a naval escolt because in Rabaul there was the Aoba CA, as can be seen in Figure 2. The question arose is if the submarines manage to eliminate the escolt, could it be possible prevent the AA? Would the ASP be lost if that is the case?

Cheers!!


Figure 1. General Map.


Figure 2. Detail Rabaul


Figure 3. Detail Kavieng.
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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Submarines can't prevent the marines from making it to the battle hex, that happens after. however the submarines can sink naval units making it more difficult for the US to win the naval battle and make a successful invasion.
 
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Has_hecho_trampas Has_hecho_trampas
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Sure, that was clear. The last question is about the Marines. In particular about the 8.45 B:

"B. Amphibious Assault Restrictions (Offensive and Reaction)
The path taken by the Amphibious Assault ground unit(s) may not
enter or exit a hex that currently contains an opposing naval unit
(active or inactive), unless the assaulting unit moves with a friendly
naval unit for the entire length of its movement."

It seems that even the friendly naval unit is sunk by the sumbarines the requirement of the escolt the AA ground unit is achieved. I was just wondering if you can confirm it that thought is correct.

Cheers!
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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Yes it is correct because that check is conducted during reaction movement only. This is before you play reaction submarine cards. Once the check is done you don't need to check again. So the escort condition is fulfilled during reaction movement, no marines turned back and no losses. Later submarines hit the US naval but the battle still goes on, you don't check for escorts anymore at this point.
 
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Has_hecho_trampas Has_hecho_trampas
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Sure. Thanks Again! Muchas Gracias!!
 
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Tom Willcockson
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Hi Francisco: I'm the American player in the game & just getting back to it after being away for a while. Yes it is complex and not sure I understand all of the fine points myself.

-So I take it from the above that the subs cant prevent the Marines from landing at Raubaul if they sink the surface ship escort due to the sequence however they can effect the naval battle if they sink/damage US ships.

-I also assume that the HQ at Truk can activate units outside of its hex, even though its hex has been declared a battle hex. As long as it can trace an activation path out via neutralized ZOIs.

-Finally, can the Marine landing at Kavieng prevent the Japanese air unit at Ponape from using the Kavieng airfield in staging. I think the rules say it cant move to a battle hex, but can it stage through one. For that matter I assume it could use 4221 which is occupied by the Enterprise but which is not a battle hex. Buin, Green and Woodlark are also in supply from Raubaul to Truk via neutralized ZOIs & assume it could operate from one of those.

-Also, sorry if this question was answered, but the Marine landing at Kavieng did so against an unoccupied hex. When the Japanese player used his Intelligence card and changed the condition to intercept it becomes a battle hex, so he can use carrier air against it. The unit in question is the Wake brigade which cant be eliminated in the air/naval since the last step cant be lost, but the Japanese would automatically win the air/naval battle since there is no opposition thus making the invasion a failure?

This move has raised a whole bunch of questions for me which is good as it gives a workout of the rules. This is a detail of the battle. New Orleans and Jascinto are attacking Truk, W Marine is invasing an empty Kavieng, all the other activated units are attacking Raubaul which has a ground, air and surface unit. Note that only US units on a line with Raubaul and above have been activated, the others on New Georgia, Port Moresby etc were not activated. Once again, sorry if some of this was already answered.

 
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Francisco Colmenares
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TomW731 wrote:
Hi Francisco: I'm the American player in the game & just getting back to it after being away for a while. Yes it is complex and not sure I understand all of the fine points myself.

Sure thing, happy to help

TomW731 wrote:
-So I take it from the above that the subs cant prevent the Marines from landing at Raubaul if they sink the surface ship escort due to the sequence however they can effect the naval battle if they sink/damage US ships.

Correct.

TomW731 wrote:
-I also assume that the HQ at Truk can activate units outside of its hex, even though its hex has been declared a battle hex. As long as it can trace an activation path out via neutralized ZOIs.

Correct.

TomW731 wrote:
-Finally, can the Marine landing at Kavieng prevent the Japanese air unit at Ponape from using the Kavieng airfield in staging. I think the rules say it cant move to a battle hex, but can it stage through one. For that matter I assume it could use 4221 which is occupied by the Enterprise but which is not a battle hex. Buin, Green and Woodlark are also in supply from Raubaul to Truk via neutralized ZOIs & assume it could operate from one of those.

Battle hexes are basically walls for air units. They can't move into them for any reason, they can only move out of one if they start their move inside it already. So Enterprise doesn't block anything and if the Marines triggered a battle hex, air units can't move in. Now for a little nuance; if the Marine did not trigger a battle hex a Japanese air unit could stage THROUGH the airfield hex but not END its move there.

TomW731 wrote:
-Also, sorry if this question was answered, but the Marine landing at Kavieng did so against an unoccupied hex. When the Japanese player used his Intelligence card and changed the condition to intercept it becomes a battle hex, so he can use carrier air against it. The unit in question is the Wake brigade which cant be eliminated in the air/naval since the last step cant be lost, but the Japanese would automatically win the air/naval battle since there is no opposition thus making the invasion a failure?

Well first, did you roll for Special Reaction? Just because Japan played an intercept card it doesn't mean such hexes automatically become battle hexes, you must still roll for them. Assuming Japan successfully rolls for the battle hex through SR, a few things can happen: Japan could move a naval unit as part of reaction into the battle hex which would inflict a step loss on the marines and foil the invasion (lack of escort) Japan could move a carrier in range of the battle and auto win the air/naval battle and foil the invasion.

TomW731 wrote:
This move has raised a whole bunch of questions for me which is good as it gives a workout of the rules. This is a detail of the battle. New Orleans and Jascinto are attacking Truk, W Marine is invasing an empty Kavieng, all the other activated units are attacking Raubaul which has a ground, air and surface unit. Note that only US units on a line with Raubaul and above have been activated, the others on New Georgia, Port Moresby etc were not activated. Once again, sorry if some of this was already answered.


No problems at all.
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Tom Willcockson
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Thanks for the answers Francisco. Liked the wall statement, makes that part clearer to me. However I wasn't aware that the Japanese would still have to roll an intercept for the SR hexes even if they played a reaction card turning the overall Intel condition to intercept. So would the same apply if he didn't play a card but made an Intel roll and got an intercept of an Allied move that also contained a special reaction hex? He would have to roll seperately for the SR after the general Intel roll? What if there were several SR hexes would he have to roll for each one or would a single SR roll suffice for all of them? Thought I was kind of getting the hang of EotS again, but this move has gotten me back into head exploding territory... but in a good way
 
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Petri P
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Separate rolls for special reaction for every potential battle hex (under friendly AZOI, contains enemy ground units amphibious assaulting it).

Then a roll or a card to actually detect the offensive. If no detection, those special reaction battle hexes do not happen. (Because such a potential battle hex disappears if there is no reaction to it).

So, basically, this simulates the observers: "Hmm... there seems to be a division landing here, however, the field manual does not tell us if that is a sign of an offensive or not. I guess not, do not worry about it."

(No, it does not. A successful special reaction + detection simulates faulty intelligence - there was something there, it was never empty).
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Francisco Colmenares
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TomW731 wrote:
Thanks for the answers Francisco. Liked the wall statement, makes that part clearer to me. However I wasn't aware that the Japanese would still have to roll an intercept for the SR hexes even if they played a reaction card turning the overall Intel condition to intercept. So would the same apply if he didn't play a card but made an Intel roll and got an intercept of an Allied move that also contained a special reaction hex? He would have to roll seperately for the SR after the general Intel roll? What if there were several SR hexes would he have to roll for each one or would a single SR roll suffice for all of them? Thought I was kind of getting the hang of EotS again, but this move has gotten me back into head exploding territory... but in a good way

Special Reaction comes before general intelligence. You roll once per SR hex, this may create additional battle hexes. After that is done then you can roll for intelligence or play a card.

I would like to point out that battle hexes created this way stay created regardless of the intelligence condition (though in most cases it may not make a difference, though it can make a difference for certain reaction cards like submarines or kamikazes)
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Petri P
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colmenarez wrote:
I would like to point out that battle hexes created this way stay created regardless of the intelligence condition (though in most cases it may not make a difference, though it can make a difference for certain reaction cards like submarines or kamikazes)


However, the example in pg 14 shows that a carrier in a battle hex which contains no opposing units can still participate in another battle. (Even if the rules say that a unit in a battle hex must participate in that battle, not another):

Quote:
EXAMPLE A carrier escorts a ground unit using amphibious assault
to a vacant Hollandia. The CV then declares it will attack enemy
units in Biak, two hexes away. The opponent successfully rolls for
Special Reaction (SR) in Hollandia and reacts with air/naval units
to the battle in Hollandia. In this case, the carrier takes part in the
battle in Hollandia and not in Biak. If the Reaction player rolled
successfully for SR, but did not react to Hollandia with any forces,
the carrier would take part in the Biak battle


I.e, it might still be a battle hex, but it does not function like a normal battle hex.


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Tom Willcockson
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Thanks guys, this is great & is really helping my understanding of the situation!
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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petrip wrote:
colmenarez wrote:
I would like to point out that battle hexes created this way stay created regardless of the intelligence condition (though in most cases it may not make a difference, though it can make a difference for certain reaction cards like submarines or kamikazes)


However, the example in pg 14 shows that a carrier in a battle hex which contains no opposing units can still participate in another battle. (Even if the rules say that a unit in a battle hex must participate in that battle, not another):

Quote:
EXAMPLE A carrier escorts a ground unit using amphibious assault
to a vacant Hollandia. The CV then declares it will attack enemy
units in Biak, two hexes away. The opponent successfully rolls for
Special Reaction (SR) in Hollandia and reacts with air/naval units
to the battle in Hollandia. In this case, the carrier takes part in the
battle in Hollandia and not in Biak. If the Reaction player rolled
successfully for SR, but did not react to Hollandia with any forces,
the carrier would take part in the Biak battle


I.e, it might still be a battle hex, but it does not function like a normal battle hex.



Sure but dont make the mistake of NOT treating it like a Battle Hex. It makes a difference if you are using Kamikaze or any other card that REQUIRES a battle hex to have an effect.
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Has_hecho_trampas Has_hecho_trampas
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Yeah, thanks to everybody.

I decided in concentrated all the effords on the important battle in Rabaul, hoping I might win the naval battle there an therefore stopping the naval invasion.

However I didn't know I had to roll to create new battle hexes BEFORE changing the inteligence status of the invasion. I did know I have to roll even though I played a card.
 
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Tom Willcockson
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Think what they are saying is you only have to roll for the Special Reaction hex at Kavieng for interception. The battle hexes at Raubaul and Truk are automatically made intercepts by your play of the Intelligence reaction card.
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