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Subject: TYT: Police now dismembering people at the water protest. rss

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Mac Mcleod
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Police are shooting rubber bullets directly at people's heads and inappropriately shot concussion grenades directly at a young women and ripped her arm off.

Yes it's TYT, but facts are facts and these are pretty horrific. The police are attacking civilian protesters in ways that are going to kill someone. This really needs to be stopped.

This reflects badly on President Obama.

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R. Frazier
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I have a really hard time understanding why the cops are using this level of force against what sounds like a peaceful protest. What am I missing?
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casey r lowe
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was it a concussion grenade or a stun grenade~
 
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Andrew Bartosh

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Are they facts yet? Looking it up, it looks like police are contending the explosive came from the protesters. (Honestly don't know, just saw it in the other link I found, so curious if there is more info).

@R. Frazier: Looks like the contention is that the protesters were throwing rocks and flaming logs at them.
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rylfrazier wrote:
I have a really hard time understanding why the cops are using this level of force against what sounds like a peaceful protest. What am I missing?

Systematic racism in dealings with native peoples.
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AndrewRogue wrote:
Are they facts yet? Looking it up, it looks like police are contending the explosive came from the protesters. (Honestly don't know, just saw it in the other link I found, so curious if there is more info).


Is there a time where police won't contend that?

There was a high profile case of police here in my city shooting rubber bullets straight to people's heads a few years ago. One rubber bullet hit a passer-by (not actually a protester) in the face a bust her eyeball. Bear in mind that police forces in this country enjoy a "presumption of truth" in court, that is, police reports are assumed to be true unless it can be shown that they are contradictory or there is enough external evidence to prove them wrong.

After a large number of lies and misdirections by the Police, it was eventually settled in court that yes, the injury was caused by a rubber bullet, and yes, shooting a rubber bullet at that height and without bouncing off the ground was an absolute break of all laws and regulations regarding their use, but because it couldn't be proved exactly what policeman had done that (of course, the police corps in question refused to identify the officers that were directly involved), then it couldn't be proven that it was actually a policeman and not anyone else who shot the rubber bullet from the police positions into the crowd, so that was it. (Note that no means to shoot rubber bullets was found in the protest; the only ones with that capability were the police officers. It simply came down to the defence not being able to identify which exact officer did it, an info the police withheld). The victim was awarded some compensation money from the State (who bears some responsibility when it can't be pinned down to a specific person) and no one was found guilty.
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casey r lowe
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militarization of the police has really ramped up in recent years so i wouldnt attend even a peaceful protest without protective gear
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R. Frazier
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My understanding is that part of the complaint is that the pipeline was redirected specifically because a local city complained, but it was redirected to an area that impacted the Native American population and the state and the pipeline manufacturers have been unresponsive to complaints.
 
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jeremy cobert
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maxo-texas wrote:
This really needs to be stopped.

This reflects badly on President Obama.



I agree, we need to round up these semi-professional protesters and remove them.

The oil must flow.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Perhaps it would be getting more attention if it was being reported by some outlet with more credibility than "Young Turks". But then, given the "quality" of recent reporting, I'm not sure what media outlet would have much more credibility left. shake

That's one of the consequences of crying wolf, tilting at windmills et al. People simply stop believing it and stop paying attention. I'm sure my opinion will be dismissed / insulted by those on the left, as usual. However, I sincerely agree that IF the police are in fact doing this, they need to be stopped and disciplined. I just don't believe it is actually happening based on a report from a source demonstrated to be unreliable and not credible.
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Shawn Fox
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Well there is another side to the story. The truth is that the protestors are not native americans, they are outsiders. Most of the actual people that this pipeline affects don't even care about it. Yes there are a few very vocal people in the community that do, but most don't give a shit, and there are a lot of people in the indian tribes in the area that just wish all the protesters would go home.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/30/some-standin...

This is just a simple pipeline, it has an extraordinarily low chance of polluting the river, and the oil is going to be moved one way or the other, so it might as well be moved in a less dangerous and more energy efficient way (via a pipeline) than via trains or trucks.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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deadkenny wrote:
That's one of the consequences of crying wolf, tilting at windmills et al. People simply stop believing it and stop paying attention. I'm sure my opinion will be dismissed / insulted by those on the left, as usual. However, I sincerely agree that IF the police are in fact doing this, they need to be stopped and disciplined. I just don't believe it is actually happening based on a report from a source demonstrated to be unreliable and not credible.
You do realize this supports the contention that 8 years of crying wolf about Obama has insulated people from his real mistakes?
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sfox wrote:
This is just a simple pipeline, it has an extraordinarily low chance of polluting the river, and the oil is going to be moved one way or the other, so it might as well be moved in a less dangerous and more energy efficient way (via a pipeline) than via trains or trucks.
Train transport is statistically safer. Though I haven't seen energy cost comparisons.

EDIT: Also, if it were safer and more energy efficient then it can be redirected back by the other community as originally planned.
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TheChin! wrote:
sfox wrote:
This is just a simple pipeline, it has an extraordinarily low chance of polluting the river, and the oil is going to be moved one way or the other, so it might as well be moved in a less dangerous and more energy efficient way (via a pipeline) than via trains or trucks.
Train transport is statistically safer. Though I haven't seen energy cost comparisons.

Safer? Source please.
 
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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sfox wrote:
Well there is another side to the story. The truth is that the protestors are not native americans, they are outsiders. Most of the actual people that this pipeline affects don't even care about it. Yes there are a few very vocal people in the community that do, but most don't give a shit, and there are a lot of people in the indian tribes in the area that just wish all the protesters would go home.
Upon further review I don't think your article actually supports this. It has one guy making anecdotal claims, but I see that the Tribe involved has initiated legal actions and made formal complaints. It sounds like many of the indigenous people do care about it.
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Desiderata wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
sfox wrote:
This is just a simple pipeline, it has an extraordinarily low chance of polluting the river, and the oil is going to be moved one way or the other, so it might as well be moved in a less dangerous and more energy efficient way (via a pipeline) than via trains or trucks.
Train transport is statistically safer. Though I haven't seen energy cost comparisons.

Safer? Source please.

You are welcome to provide your own source, as far as I am aware, pipelines are the safest way to move oil. I'm certainly open, however, to learning that they are not, should anyone provide evidence.
 
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TheChin! wrote:
deadkenny wrote:
That's one of the consequences of crying wolf, tilting at windmills et al. People simply stop believing it and stop paying attention. I'm sure my opinion will be dismissed / insulted by those on the left, as usual. However, I sincerely agree that IF the police are in fact doing this, they need to be stopped and disciplined. I just don't believe it is actually happening based on a report from a source demonstrated to be unreliable and not credible.
You do realize this supports the contention that 8 years of crying wolf about Obama has insulated people from his real mistakes?


That is completely irrelevant to the point I was making. But do feel free to argue that. I think another thread would be appropriate though.
 
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Desiderata wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
Train transport is statistically safer. Though I haven't seen energy cost comparisons.

Safer? Source please.
It's a context thing, in the context of water safety, train spills happen more often but spill less oil than pipelines. I'm going by a graphic that someone posted here in RSP to show that Trucks spilled more than Pipelines, but it also showed that Trains spill less than Pipelines.

Derailments and resulting explosions are a different risk that are relatively low damage compared to large scale watershed damage.

EDIT: Here is a quote from the following link. You might not like the reporting source, but the data is from the Government.
Quote:
According to the same PHMSA dataset, compiled and analysed by the International Energy Agency, U.S. pipelines spilled three times as much crude oil as trains over that eight-year period, even though incidents happened much less frequently. And that eight-year period was dominated by large pipeline spill events, including one that saw 800,000 gallons of Canadian tar sands crude spill in and around the Kalamazoo River, and another 63,000 gallon pipeline spill into the Yellowstone River.
https://thinkprogress.org/data-oil-trains-spill-more-often-b...
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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deadkenny wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
deadkenny wrote:
That's one of the consequences of crying wolf, tilting at windmills et al. People simply stop believing it and stop paying attention. I'm sure my opinion will be dismissed / insulted by those on the left, as usual. However, I sincerely agree that IF the police are in fact doing this, they need to be stopped and disciplined. I just don't believe it is actually happening based on a report from a source demonstrated to be unreliable and not credible.
You do realize this supports the contention that 8 years of crying wolf about Obama has insulated people from his real mistakes?
That is completely irrelevant to the point I was making. But do feel free to argue that. I think another thread would be appropriate though.
Obama's inaction on this was brought up in the OP, so I think this thread is ok to talk about it.
 
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I was originally sympathetic to this protesting...until I dug deeper. I discovered that there was poor journalism on the side of the native americans and protesters. Certainly one-sided journalism.

It turns out, as stated above, that most of the protesters are not the tribespeople at all. They are being funded and supported by environmental groups. This particular tribe denied the many opportunities they were invited to participate in the route planning, although many other tribes did and have no problem with it.
Pipelines run all through our country already. But we somehow have a problem with this one? Thanks to the media who are making it out to be a racial thing when it is not. It is NOT on reservation land. The protesters march over a mile outside the native's land in order to hinder operations. The oil companies have done due diligence in obtaining permission for the pipeline and working with local residents. The protesters are not all peaceful. It's all bullshit designed to appeal to emotions of the uninformed who get their news from FB memes.
I'll agree that we should move away from fossil fuels towards more renewable energy. But, this pipeline has nothing to do with that discussion. The oil is traveling regardless, even some of it by train through the reservation now. Preventing this pipeline will not push us away from fossil fuel. That will take policy changes. See map of all the pipelines in use today.

http://standingrockfactchecker.org/fact-checking-srst-claims...

http://www.pipeline101.com/Where-Are-Pipelines-Located

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/energy-environment/29...

http://mwalliancenow.org/news/stevens-politics-trumping-fact...

http://bismarcktribune.com/bakken/arson-suspected-at-three-d...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/29/us/dakota-pipeline-standing-ro...

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Humulus Lupulus
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sfox wrote:
Desiderata wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
sfox wrote:
This is just a simple pipeline, it has an extraordinarily low chance of polluting the river, and the oil is going to be moved one way or the other, so it might as well be moved in a less dangerous and more energy efficient way (via a pipeline) than via trains or trucks.
Train transport is statistically safer. Though I haven't seen energy cost comparisons.

Safer? Source please.

You are welcome to provide your own source, as far as I am aware, pipelines are the safest way to move oil. I'm certainly open, however, to learning that they are not, should anyone provide evidence.

I was requesting TheChin! to provide a source to his claim that train transport is safer. I agree with you that pipelines are safer.
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Desiderata wrote:
Pipelines run all through our country already. But we somehow have a problem with this one? Thanks to the media who are making it out to be a racial thing when it is not. It is NOT on reservation land. The protesters march over a mile outside the native's land in order to hinder operations. The oil companies have done due diligence in obtaining permission for the pipeline and working with local residents. The protesters are not all peaceful. It's all bullshit designed to appeal to emotions of the uninformed who get their news from FB memes.
Have you seen the actual route maps that show the alternate route north of Bismark? Having it go South of Bismark where any potential spills only affect the reservation is part of the outrage.

I think it's pretty clever of the Tribe to make an eminent domain claim since the involved land is actually contested lands under a treaty that the U.S. government broke. I imagine though, since they aren't a multi-(b)(m)illion dollar corporation they won't get the same consideration when claiming other people's allegedly legally owned lands.
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Here is the original graph that someone posted:

Now, that is a little dated because from what I understand oil transport by rail has increased exponentially because it is so much more flexible than pipeline for getting to where various oil sources pop up. For instance, this graph shows that something happened in 2013 that caused Rail to go off the chart. Not sure why it is an outlier:


As you can see, even though rail is increasing in usage, it's number of incidents go down and that is because advancements in rail transport are actually making it safer than it already is.
 
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Josiah Fiscus
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Some more balanced looks perhaps:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/11/23/503120449/...

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/11/22/stateme...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/22/dakota-acces...

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TheChin! wrote:
As you can see, even though rail is increasing in usage, it's number of incidents go down and that is because advancements in rail transport are actually making it safer than it already is.

Well there are numbers, but hard to say what they mean. If you are going to make a claim about rail transport advancements then you also have to take into account new oil pipelines vs. old ones. I'll bet you that a newly built oil pipeline is going to lose much less oil than one built 20, 30, or more years ago, as most of the oil pipelines were. Technology has improved a lot, and even more importantly, regulations have changed a lot, requiring newer pipelines to be built with better specifications.
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