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Subject: Recommendation: Yom Kippur War or Six Day War rss

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Hunga Dunga
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Hi All!

Can you recommend a good game on either of these conflicts?

Size or complexity don't matter. Strategic, Operational, or Tactical ok.

Doesn't need to be currently in print.

Thanks, H.
 
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pɹɐɥɔᴉɹ
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My favourite is Chinese Farm, from Modern Battles Quad. Others: Golan and The Battle for Jerusalem from the Modern Battles Quad I and II, and S&T 61 October War.

Have got but not yet played Elusive Victory, FAB: Golan '73, and Modern War 25 October War
 
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Mike Szarka
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SCS Yom Kippur is a good game, although it was a long time ago I played it.
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Carl Fung
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Hungadunga wrote:
Hi All!

Can you recommend a good game on either of these conflicts?

Size or complexity don't matter. Strategic, Operational, or Tactical ok.

Doesn't need to be currently in print.

Thanks, H.


<cough> wait for my game on the Yom Kippur War </cough>

If you can't wait, then here are games that are or were in print. Note that I don't have a recommendation for a dedicated Six Day War game as I don't believe there's one that portrays the situation well yet is still challenging for the Arabs. That said:

- Bar-Lev: The Yom-Kippur War of 1973/Bar-Lev: The 1973 Arab-Israeli War - a classic but very dated. I have concerns with the different scales for both fronts and the OOB is extremely outdated.

- Crisis: Sinai 1973 - the best dedicated Sinai Front of the Yom Kippur War game yet has errata and clarification warts. Still very meaty for a one map game.

- Suez '73 - Chadwick's complex grand tactical (battalion scale) covering the fight around Chinese Farm.

- Elusive Victory: The Air War over the Suez Canal, 1967-1973 - Perhaps not in your realm as this is an air game on the Sinai Front, but its a very detailed game based on the Downtown system.

- Heights of Courage - Straight-forward game using the SCS (the first S is for Standard, not Simple or Straight-forward). A good representation of the fight for the Golan. I purposely exclude its distant kin Yom Kippur because although its a fun game, its not a good representation of the actual fight.

- Days of Battle: Golan Heights - I haven't played this but I heard its good. Another Chadwick design in a small format. This is on the Golan fighting only.

No recommendations for small tactical (like IDF (Israeli Defense Force) because those are just generic tanks being moved on generic maps. Most of the SPI stuff (Sinai, Chinese Farm, and Across Suez are dated but fun. I haven't tried the recent October War or No Middle Ground: The Golan Heights 1973 but reading about them didn't tickle my fancy.
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Jared Wilson
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And there's Flashpoint: Golan as well. Looks heavy, and been meaning to try it, but haven't yet. So I can't tell you how it plays.
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Carl Fung
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tacman88 wrote:
And there's Flashpoint: Golan as well. Looks heavy, and been meaning to try it, but haven't yet. So I can't tell you how it plays.


Flashpoint: Golan covers a hypothetical situation in the Golan although there is a historical Yom Kippur War scenario where you have to print your own counters in a game magazine.

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.ee7001a/81
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Bruce Jurin
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I'm also putting in a plug for Bar-Lev: The Yom-Kippur war of 1973. I know that there is criticism about some unit capabilities and the order of battle, but it is a really great game if you want to go for a long game. It really gives the feeling of the struggle and long road back.

It does a really great job of meshing the fronts and integrating the air and ground game, and the slow Israeli attempt to regain air superiority and then deal with the surface to air missiles.
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Andrew N
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FAB: Golan '73 is really good. The only draw back is the relatively limited scope, since the game just focuses on the Syrian offensive into the Golan Heights.

Elusive Victory: The Air War over the Suez Canal, 1967-1973 is great for covering the air war (but only Egypt vs Israel).

IIRC, Flashpoint: Golan also had historical scenarios besides the hypothetical ones.
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M St
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mcszarka wrote:
SCS Yom Kippur is a good game, although it was a long time ago I played it.

We found it had almost no resemblance to the actual war. Historically, the war had a strong frontal nature to it and the first full breakthrough (the Israelis getting into the Egyptian rear) ended it. In the game, overmobility (a common failing of SCS games) led to a situation where the front was almost irrelevant; one circled the wagons before the enemy turn to avoid any being cut off individually, and in one's own turn attacked the enemy's laagers and then exploited back into one's own. The N-S road was more important than the front (because it helped concentration for the attack). Best of all were the Israeli hover artillery units which would race out of their hedgehogs, blast the enemy, and then exploit back into safety.

Likewise, the Egyptian reserves would scramble against an Israeli canal crossing like a bat out of hell, quite unlike the historical situation.

Very colourful, but bizarre.
 
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Jeb
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Breunor wrote:
I'm also putting in a plug for Bar-Lev: The Yom-Kippur war of 1973. I know that there is criticism about some unit capabilities and the order of battle, but it is a really great game if you want to go for a long game. It really gives the feeling of the struggle and long road back.

It does a really great job of meshing the fronts and integrating the air and ground game, and the slow Israeli attempt to regain air superiority and then deal with the surface to air missiles.


I agree. An excellent if dated game of the war. One of the few games that I have literally played to death.
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Cliff Churgin
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calvinboy24 wrote:
Hungadunga wrote:
Hi All!

Can you recommend a good game on either of these conflicts?

Size or complexity don't matter. Strategic, Operational, or Tactical ok.

Doesn't need to be currently in print.

Thanks, H.


<cough> wait for my game on the Yom Kippur War </cough>

If you can't wait, then here are games that are or were in print. Note that I don't have a recommendation for a dedicated Six Day War game as I don't believe there's one that portrays the situation well yet is still challenging for the Arabs. That said:

- Bar-Lev: The Yom-Kippur War of 1973/Bar-Lev: The 1973 Arab-Israeli War - a classic but very dated. I have concerns with the different scales for both fronts and the OOB is extremely outdated.

- Crisis: Sinai 1973 - the best dedicated Sinai Front of the Yom Kippur War game yet has errata and clarification warts. Still very meaty for a one map game.

- Suez '73 - Chadwick's complex grand tactical (battalion scale) covering the fight around Chinese Farm.

- Elusive Victory: The Air War over the Suez Canal, 1967-1973 - Perhaps not in your realm as this is an air game on the Sinai Front, but its a very detailed game based on the Downtown system.

- Heights of Courage - Straight-forward game using the SCS (the first S is for Standard, not Simple or Straight-forward). A good representation of the fight for the Golan. I purposely exclude its distant kin Yom Kippur because although its a fun game, its not a good representation of the actual fight.

- Days of Battle: Golan Heights - I haven't played this but I heard its good. Another Chadwick design in a small format. This is on the Golan fighting only.

No recommendations for small tactical (like IDF (Israeli Defense Force) because those are just generic tanks being moved on generic maps. Most of the SPI stuff (Sinai, Chinese Farm, and Across Suez are dated but fun. I haven't tried the recent October War or No Middle Ground: The Golan Heights 1973 but reading about them didn't tickle my fancy.


<cough> Yes, still waiting for that game <cough>

I mean how much time can one baby cut into design time?
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Hunga Dunga
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Thanks for all the input!

Do any of you know the differences between the two versions of Bar-Lev?
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Bruce Jurin
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Hungadunga wrote:
Thanks for all the input!

Do any of you know the differences between the two versions of Bar-Lev?


Unfortunately I played them almost 20 years apart, so I'm not positive on the details. However, I do know that the key was that the original (Yom Kippur War) came out very soon after the war occurred, and it just turned out that they got a lot of it wrong. I think they redid the order of battle and some part of the air war and the impact of the SAM's. I remember there were changes to the relative ability of tanks and infantry.

But I do remember that the general flow of the game is pretty much the same; I loved both games. I actually think I liked the original more.
 
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Mike Szarka
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M St wrote:
mcszarka wrote:
SCS Yom Kippur is a good game, although it was a long time ago I played it.

We found it had almost no resemblance to the actual war. Historically, the war had a strong frontal nature to it and the first full breakthrough (the Israelis getting into the Egyptian rear) ended it. In the game, overmobility (a common failing of SCS games) led to a situation where the front was almost irrelevant; one circled the wagons before the enemy turn to avoid any being cut off individually, and in one's own turn attacked the enemy's laagers and then exploited back into one's own. The N-S road was more important than the front (because it helped concentration for the attack). Best of all were the Israeli hover artillery units which would race out of their hedgehogs, blast the enemy, and then exploit back into safety.

Likewise, the Egyptian reserves would scramble against an Israeli canal crossing like a bat out of hell, quite unlike the historical situation.

Very colourful, but bizarre.


Not how I remember it...it was a real slugfest. Maybe we missed something.
 
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M St
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It may be in that insidious category of games that look reasonable as long as one restricts oneself to reasonable actions. But when one works out what one can do to get an advantage, they go off the rails.

As another example, a special rule in Yom Kippur was that the Israelis would initially suffer extra losses, to represent the effects of ATRs and ATGMs (or, RPG's and Saggers) which made the traditional quick armored counterattack very costly for the Israelis, until they adapted their doctrine on the fly. Now, in Crisis: Sinai (admittedly a much more complex game, but we're not talking significant extra detail in this case), this effect was keyed to the number of losses the Israelis would take (possibly in attacks only - it's been a long time). So you fight and bleed and after some time the effect wears off as your troops adjust.

In Yom Kippur, the application of the effect is fixed: it only applies on the first four turns. So if you play historically and counterattack early and often, you will take the historical losses. What Israeli players tended to do instead was to counterattack as little as possible in those four turns. They would not hold as much ground but take fewer losses and with the extra strength would find it easier to roll back the Egyptians from turn 5 onwards. Of course in historical terms this is absurd, as without counterattacks, they would not have suffered the losses that triggered the urgent rethink.
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Fernando Robert Yu
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IDF (Israeli Defense Force) is a great tactical level game with the same system of the original AH version of MBT, and it has scenarios for both the 6 day war and the 1973 war.
 
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Magister Ludi
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Why not both campaigns....and 56 thrown in as well?

Sinai

Its old, but it was a low complexity way to fight out the whole thing.
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Roi espino
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mcszarka wrote:
M St wrote:
mcszarka wrote:
SCS Yom Kippur is a good game, although it was a long time ago I played it.

We found it had almost no resemblance to the actual war. Historically, the war had a strong frontal nature to it and the first full breakthrough (the Israelis getting into the Egyptian rear) ended it. In the game, overmobility (a common failing of SCS games) led to a situation where the front was almost irrelevant; one circled the wagons before the enemy turn to avoid any being cut off individually, and in one's own turn attacked the enemy's laagers and then exploited back into one's own. The N-S road was more important than the front (because it helped concentration for the attack). Best of all were the Israeli hover artillery units which would race out of their hedgehogs, blast the enemy, and then exploit back into safety.

Likewise, the Egyptian reserves would scramble against an Israeli canal crossing like a bat out of hell, quite unlike the historical situation.

Very colourful, but bizarre.


Not how I remember it...it was a real slugfest. Maybe we missed something.


Can't say much abut historicity, but Yom kippur is a greatly fun game to play. One of this games that with simples rules you have a great gameplay.
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