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The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Grievous Wound + Athelas rss

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Ira Fay
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New Haven
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If a hero with Grievous Wound uses Athelas on itself while 1 HP away from death, does it:
a) die
B) end with 0 damage
C) end with 1 damage

Grievous wound:
Condition
Forced: after attached hero exhausts, deal one damage to it.

Athelas:
Action: discard Athelas and exhaust attached character to heal all damage on a character. You may discard a condition attachment from that character.
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Ira Fay
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I think you fully resolve Athelas before the forced effect can trigger, and by then it's out of play. So my pick is B, but I'm not sure.
 
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Andrew Brown
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going by previous rulings, discarding Athelas and exhausting the attached character is part of the cost of using Athelas, so as soon as you discard & exhaust (ie: pay the cost for the effect), they're dead before that effect can resolve
 
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Fred Buchholz
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If I remember right it goes, passive, forced, response, action effect, so the forced (dealing one damage) would come out before the heal, I think.
 
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Jonas Devos
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when in doubt, take the option that would F* you over the most... it's how this game works
 
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Andrew Brown
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Voske4000 wrote:
when in doubt, take the option that would F* you over the most... it's how this game works
i suppose that's one way of looking at it, but the same ruling is what makes ally Imrahil work with Caldara
 
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Jonas Devos
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dr00 wrote:
Voske4000 wrote:
when in doubt, take the option that would F* you over the most... it's how this game works
i suppose that's one way of looking at it, but the same ruling is what makes ally Imrahil work with Caldara


ok, so the game does throw you a bone from time to time.
I had to google that card, I didn't even know there was an ally Imrahil lol.
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Robin Munn

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I couldn't figure out what the right answer should be, so I submitted this question to FFG, and got the following response from Caleb Grace:

Caleb wrote:
In The Lord of the Rings LCG we resolve effects sentence by sentence. We don’t interrupt a sentence to resolve a different effect, but effects can interrupt at the end of the sentence. So what would happen is: you exhaust and heal all damage at once, then you resolve the Forced effect on Grievous Wound for 1 damage. After that, you could discard a condition attachment from play.
Cheers,
Caleb


So it turns out that the right answer is C: the hero survives with 1 damage, and then has the option of discarding Grievous Wound.
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Andrew Brown
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rmunn wrote:
I couldn't figure out what the right answer should be, so I submitted this question to FFG, and got the following response from Caleb Grace:

Caleb wrote:
In The Lord of the Rings LCG we resolve effects sentence by sentence. We don’t interrupt a sentence to resolve a different effect, but effects can interrupt at the end of the sentence. So what would happen is: you exhaust and heal all damage at once, then you resolve the Forced effect on Grievous Wound for 1 damage. After that, you could discard a condition attachment from play.
Cheers,
Caleb


So it turns out that the right answer is C: the hero survives with 1 damage, and then has the option of discarding Grievous Wound.
thanks for the follow up.

i'm guessing this means that discarding Athelas and exhausting the attached character are not a cost but part of the effect
 
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Robin Munn

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dr00 wrote:
i'm guessing this means that discarding Athelas and exhausting the attached character are not a cost but part of the effect


How are you coming to that conclusion? (Not making fun; serious question). They are definitely the cost: in any sentence with the structure "do A to do B", A is the cost and B is the effect. If other cards make you unable to do A, then you can't do B.

It's just that Caleb's ruling here says that other effects don't interrupt between A and B. But if there was a second sentence following B, then another effect could interrupt before that second sentence resolves.
 
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Andrew Brown
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rmunn wrote:
dr00 wrote:
i'm guessing this means that discarding Athelas and exhausting the attached character are not a cost but part of the effect


How are you coming to that conclusion? (Not making fun; serious question). They are definitely the cost: in any sentence with the structure "do A to do B", A is the cost and B is the effect. If other cards make you unable to do A, then you can't do B.
this is probably really complicated to explain, but i'll try my best.

i don't mean cost in a general sense. i mean cost in a technical sense (as in, technical language for LCGs: cost has a very specific meaning outside of its normal dictionary meaning)

anyway, in Netrunner, the forced effect of Grievous Wound would definitely interrupt this sequence, but only because cost + effect are usually templated as:
Quote:
cost listed in bold: effect
for paid abilities. there aren't many paid abilities in LotR, but Athelas is one of them. another use of cost is as in the actual cost of the card (in resources) and anything listed under 'as an additional cost to [play this card] (though the latter is much more common in Netrunner)

and the sequence is: cost must be paid; resolve ability, and constant abilities and conditional triggers may interrupt this. in LotR, only constant can (per my post on the FFG forums)

the templating for paid abilities in LotR are
Quote:
Action, Forced, etc.: list of effect

the ruling suggests to me that the cost (in the technical sense) is simply stating your desire to use the ability (due to the templating). originally, i thought that it was simply a templating issue, since the bolded text simply describes what kind of effect it is. the ruling is consistent with everything else i've read and have come to understand, just my assumption based on the templating differences was the problem.

consider

the cost (in a technical sense) is simply 1 Lore resource
the exhaustion of a Dunedain or Scout character can be seen as a cost in a general sense, but it's just a list of cause and effect as one ability



Quote:
It's just that Caleb's ruling here says that other effects don't interrupt between A and B. But if there was a second sentence following B, then another effect could interrupt before that second sentence resolves.
well, i mean yes, but that was never anything to do with what i was basing my interpretation on
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Tim Franklin
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dr00 wrote:
i don't mean cost in a general sense. i mean cost in a technical sense (as in, technical language for LCGs: cost has a very specific meaning outside of its normal dictionary meaning)

anyway, in Netrunner, the forced effect of Grievous Wound would definitely interrupt this sequence, but only because cost + effect are usually templated as:
Quote:
cost listed in bold: effect
for paid abilities. there aren't many paid abilities in LotR, but Athelas is one of them. another use of cost is as in the actual cost of the card (in resources) and anything listed under 'as an additional cost to [play this card] (though the latter is much more common in Netrunner)

and the sequence is: cost must be paid; resolve ability, and constant abilities and conditional triggers may interrupt this. in LotR, only constant can (per my post on the FFG forums)

the templating for paid abilities in LotR are
Quote:
Action, Forced, etc.: list of effect

the ruling suggests to me that the cost (in the technical sense) is simply stating your desire to use the ability (due to the templating). originally, i thought that it was simply a templating issue, since the bolded text simply describes what kind of effect it is. the ruling is consistent with everything else i've read and have come to understand, just my assumption based on the templating differences was the problem.


I'm coming from a similar place, and I'm surprised by the ruling. I too would have expected a sequence of pay all costs, resolve all effects of paying costs, trigger results, resolve all effects of triggering results.

Still, we have an unambiguous ruling now at least.
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