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The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: A few question rss

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Nico Muchacho
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Hi all,

I have a few questions of some cards that we don't understand..
English is not our main languish so maybe that also doen't help..

- What is the special ability of Dunhere do? He has 1 attack more against enemy's in the stagging area?! But how?

- The Treachery: Caught in a Web.
Is there a possibility to remove this condition? And if you pay the 2 resources does it stays attached to your hero?! Because that's a very hard card...

- If you defend a enemy, you need to deal a Shadow Card.. So far so good. But what if you don't defeat him, and the next round you need to fight him again, does it gets again a shadow card? Thematically that is kinda weak, because how can the same enemy has a different shadow effect?

Maybe there are more questions to come, but this is it for now...

This game is awesome, i just want to say that.. We love it!

Thanks for the help!
 
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Andrew Brown
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Gemaskerde Muchacho wrote:


- What is the special ability of Dunhere do? He has 1 attack more against enemy's in the stagging area?! But how?
if you read the rest of his card, he says that he can attack into the staging area. additionally, when he attacks into the staging area alone, he gets +1 attack (there is another card printed much later that allows mounted rohan heroes to attack the staging area; with this event, Dunhere would not get +1 attack if he attacked with someone else)

Quote:
- The Treachery: Caught in a Web.
Is there a possibility to remove this condition? And if you pay the 2 resources does it stays attached to your hero?! Because that's a very hard card...
Miner of the Iron Hills (and a few other cards) allow you to discard condition attachments. paying the 2 resources, it's still attached. conditions are very powerful for the quests that have them, which makes condition removal so good for these quests.

Quote:
- If you defend a enemy, you need to deal a Shadow Card.. So far so good. But what if you don't defeat him, and the next round you need to fight him again, does it gets again a shadow card? Thematically that is kinda weak, because how can the same enemy has a different shadow effect?
enemies get a new shadow card every time they attack, and all shadow cards are discarded at the end of the combat phase

Quote:
Maybe there are more questions to come, but this is it for now...

This game is awesome, i just want to say that.. We love it!

Thanks for the help!
welcome to the game! glad you're enjoying it
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Nico Muchacho
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Thanks a lot for the fast reply!

I still don't understand the attack on the stagging area.
You can engage by yourself one enemy every round, or it engages to you... But enemy's in the stagging area don't do anything until you summon them or they attack your.. So when does he get +1 attack? In what situation?

Thanks a lot for the help!
 
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Fred Buchholz
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Gemaskerde Muchacho wrote:
Thanks a lot for the fast reply!

I still don't understand the attack on the stagging area.
You can engage by yourself one enemy every round, or it engages to you... But enemy's in the stagging area don't do anything until you summon them or they attack your.. So when does he get +1 attack? In what situation?

Thanks a lot for the help!


His card "breaks the rules" so to speak, he is allowed to attack into the staging area even though the enemy there is not engaged with you.
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Dale Stephenson
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Here's an example:

Hummerhorns is revealed during staging, and your threat is less than its engagement cost of 40. It doesn't automatically engage you, and you choose not to optionally engage it. (A wise choice, given the 5 damage to a hero Hummerhorns does when it engages.) During the combat phase, you use Dunhere's special ability to attack alone into the staging area, which increases his attack from 2 to 3. As Hummerhorns have no defense and 3 hp, this eliminates them. Hurrah!
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Andrew Brown
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Gemaskerde Muchacho wrote:
Thanks a lot for the fast reply!

I still don't understand the attack on the stagging area.
You can engage by yourself one enemy every round, or it engages to you... But enemy's in the stagging area don't do anything until you summon them or they attack your.. So when does he get +1 attack? In what situation?

Thanks a lot for the help!
enemies are added to the staging area during questing, and the only relevant stat at that time is its threat


during the Encounter Phase, each player has the ability to optionally engage up to one enemy

after every player has engaged 1 enemy or passed, you then check engagement, by looking at the engagement value (top left number) against the current threat of each player, starting with the highest-threat enemy first and starting with the first player

any enemies that were not optionally engaged and did not engage a player because its engagement value was higher than the threat of all players, it remains in the staging area


during the combat phase, Dunhere allows you to declare him (and him alone) as an attacker against an enemy in the staging area. when he does so (if he's alone), he gets +1 attack

EDIT: also, some enemies return to the staging area after attacking, and Dunhere would allow you to attack it
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Nico Muchacho
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Very powerull!

And it does not attack back when it is at the stagging area?
 
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Jan Probst
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There is no "attacking back" ever, this is not Magic where fighting creatures "exchange" blows.

Normally, all enemies attack first, you defend or not. Then you attack.
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Nico Muchacho
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I know... but now you are entering the stagging area so you attack first.. are there no risks there?
 
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Andrew Brown
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Gemaskerde Muchacho wrote:
I know... but now you are entering the stagging area so you attack first.. are there no risks there?
you can only use Dunhere's ability to attack into the staging area during the combat phase.

if the enemy never engaged you, yes you are attacking it first, but that's what makes Dunhere special tbh
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Jan Probst
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You are not attacking first, you still attack in the stage where you declare attacks, so any enemies have already attacked beforehand (staging area ones just missed out on that because they were not engaged).

So yes, no risk. There is no Magic-style "exchange of blows".
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secoAce -
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Dunhere’s ability can only be played during the Combat Phase, so to review, the normal Combat Phase occurs in 2 Stages:
A. Engaged Enemies attack you
B. You Attack Enemies

These stages happen separately and since you have to exhaust a character with every action, that means the same character can’t both defend against an enemy’s attack and deal an attack to the enemy.

A. Engaged Enemies attack you
This first stage is when your engaged enemies attack you and you can choose 1 unexhausted character to defend the enemy’s attack. You or that defender does not return the attack. It’s all about you having to survive all the engaged enemies’ attacks at this stage.

B. You Attack Enemies
After each of your engaged enemies have attacked you, now you can declare any number of unexhausted characters to attack 1 engaged enemy at a time.

If you use Dunhere to attack by himself, he is also able to choose an enemy from the Staging Area instead.
Dunhere’s Attack Strength=2. But if he attacks an enemy in the Staging Area, then Dunhere deals an Attack Strength of 2+1=3.
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Nico Muchacho
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secoAce wrote:
Dunhere’s ability can only be played during the Combat Phase, so to review, the normal Combat Phase occurs in 2 Stages:
A. Engaged Enemies attack you
B. You Attack Enemies

These stages happen separately and since you have to exhaust a character with every action, that means the same character can’t both defend against an enemy’s attack and deal an attack to the enemy.

A. Engaged Enemies attack you
This first stage is when your engaged enemies attack you and you can choose 1 unexhausted character to defend the enemy’s attack. You or that defender does not return the attack. It’s all about you having to survive all the engaged enemies’ attacks at this stage.

B. You Attack Enemies
After each of your engaged enemies have attacked you, now you can declare any number of unexhausted characters to attack 1 engaged enemy at a time.

If you use Dunhere to attack by himself, he is also able to choose an enemy from the Staging Area instead.
Dunhere’s Attack Strength=2. But if he attacks an enemy in the Staging Area, then Dunhere deals an Attack Strength of 2+1=3.


Ah, i get it.. Thanks!
So it's also kinda hard because you have to attack alone to use the special ability... Good one!
 
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Dale Stephenson
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secoAce wrote:
Dunhere’s ability can only be played during the Combat Phase


While this is ordinarily the case, Dunhere's ability is actually a passive ability, not a combat action. If there were a card or quest/encounter effect that allowed Dunhere to attack outside the combat phase, he would be able to use his ability as long as he is attacking alone. For example, the card "Quick Strike" allows an immediate attack in any action window (it's an action, not a combat action), so if Hummerhorns came out during staging, you could play Quick Strike after staging and remove it (and its threat) before resolving the quest.
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Andrew Brown
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Gemaskerde Muchacho wrote:


Ah, i get it.. Thanks!
So it's also kinda hard because you have to attack alone to use the special ability... Good one!
it's not just that. you have to attack alone in nearly every case because his ability only allows Dunhere himself the ability to attack into the staging area.

to be honest, the 'if he attacks alone' is just adding an unnecessary layer of confusion for you. if all you have is the core, he can't attack with anyone else anyway, and the only other way i can think of (outside of specific quest scenarios that i won't spoil for you) is with a card called Forth Eorlingas, which came out at the very end of the third cycle

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Robin Munn

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dr00 wrote:
if all you have is the core, he can't attack with anyone else anyway ...


That's not really the best way to phrase it. Characters, including Dúnhere, can team up to attack an enemy. Let's say you have a Northern Tracker ally with you, and you didn't use him to quest because there aren't very many locations in the staging area. There's a King Spider engaged with you, with no damage on it -- because last turn when it showed up, it exhausted the character you were going to use to attack it.

During the attack phase, the King Spider attacks you first, and you exhaust Eleanor to defend against him. (Éowyn is already exhausted because she went questing). You get lucky with his shadow card and doesn't give him a boost to damage, so he has his normal 3 attack against Eleanor's 2 defense, and she takes 1 point of damage. Now it's your turn to attack. You have Dúnhere and the Northern Tracker still ready (unexhausted). You have four choices:

1. Don't attack the King Spider at all. This is probably a bad idea, as he'll stick around and get another attack next round.

2. Use Dúnhere alone to attack the King Spider. Because the King Spider is engaged with you, Dúnhere is NOT using his "attack into the staging area" ability, and therefore he does NOT get that +1 boost to his attack. He has 2 attack and the King Spider has 1 defense, so he would do 1 damage to it. The King Spider would survive with 2 HP, and would attack you next round, but after a couple rounds of doing this you'd eventually whittle it down to 0 HP. However, in those two rounds, more enemies might show up.

3. Use the Northern Tracker alone to attack the King Spider. Just like with Dúnhere, the Northern Tracker has 2 attack, so it would do a total of 1 damage to the King Spider, and the King Spider would stick around for at least one more round (and maybe even more than that) to attack you again, plus more enemies might show up to make things worse.

4. Declare an attack with both Dúnhere AND the Northern Tracker. Having characters team up to attack is not a special ability; it's in the normal attacking rules. So any character who isn't exhausted can join in the attack, if the enemy is engaged with you. (If the enemy is in the staging area, though, then you DO need special rules to be able to attack it, which is why dr00 said that. In the Core Set, Dúnhere is the only one who could ever attack into the staging area, so if he's attacking into the staging area, then the "if he attacks alone" phrase is irrelevant because nobody could join him in that specific attack. The "if he attacks alone" phrase only matters once you get some expansion packs, and get more cards, like Forth Eorlingas that dr00 showed you, that allow characters to attack into the staging area.) When characters team up like this, you add their attack values together, and you subtract the enemy's defense only ONCE. So Dúnhere and the Northern Tracker, with 2 attack each, have a total of 4 attack strength when they team up. The King Spider has 1 defense, so it will take a total of 3 damage from their combined attack, which is enough to kill it in just one round.

You may have understood all that already, but I thought it was worth laying out an example of how teaming up on attacks works. That's one of the rules that can be easy to miss or misunderstand.
 
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Andrew Brown
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i think you could have saved yourself the post by reading the context in which the statement was said, right?

obviously what you say is true, but when you take that part of what i said out of context where that entire post (and every post i have made in this thread) has been about Dunhere's ability to attack into the staging area.....
 
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Robin Munn

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dr00 wrote:
i think you could have saved yourself the post by reading the context in which the statement was said, right?

obviously what you say is true, but when you take that part of what i said out of context where that entire post (and every post i have made in this thread) has been about Dunhere's ability to attack into the staging area.....


I understood the context, but I was worried that a beginner might not -- hence the longish explanation. I didn't mean to imply that you had misunderstood any of the rules.
 
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Nico Muchacho
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rmunn wrote:
dr00 wrote:
i think you could have saved yourself the post by reading the context in which the statement was said, right?

obviously what you say is true, but when you take that part of what i said out of context where that entire post (and every post i have made in this thread) has been about Dunhere's ability to attack into the staging area.....


I understood the context, but I was worried that a beginner might not -- hence the longish explanation. I didn't mean to imply that you had misunderstood any of the rules.


Yes, i was reading it wrong... I thought that you had to attack alone in the combat face, also to the enemy’s that where engaged.... So your right about that...
So he can take part in a group attack on a engaged enemy and then still do his stagging attack?! Sorry but it is a bit confusing now because people are saying different things..but in your example i see that if he takes part in a attack he may do his special ability, even if it is a team attack... Thanks
 
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Tim Franklin
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Gemaskerde Muchacho wrote:
So he can take part in a group attack on a engaged enemy and then still do his stagging attack?! Sorry but it is a bit confusing now because people are saying different things..but in your example i see that if he takes part in a attack he may do his special ability, even if it is a team attack... Thanks


No, I'm afraid not. His special ability is that *when he attacks*, he can attack into the staging area. It doesn't give him an extra attack - it's either an attack by himself into the staging area, or a regular attack, possibly with other characters, on an engaged enemy.

In the same way, he has to be readied to attack into the staging area, and making that attack exhausts him. If he's already exhausted from defending or questing, he can't attack at all, even with his special ability.
 
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Robin Munn

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The way it works when you're making attacks is another one that new players often get slightly wrong. Let me see if I can try to explain it.

When you're done resolving the enemies that are attacking you, it's time for you to attack them. Here's where the common mistake happens: you probably think about characters declaring attacks, but it's actually you, the player, who declare an attack against enemies. Part of that process involves picking the character that will attack -- if you don't have any characters who are ready, you can't declare any attacks. But the way it works is that you get to declare one attack per enemy that's engaged with you, and when you declare that attack, you can use any character (or even several at once) who's eligible to attack them. (Which usually just means "is not exhausted", but sometimes there can be special rules on certain enemy cards, like "Only characters with at least 2 Willpower can attack the Witch-King"). When you pick characters to take part in the attack, you must exhaust them to do so. Now, because they're exhausted, they won't get to participate in a second attack. BUT if you had the ability to ready them, they could.

Let me illustrate with an example. You have Dúnhere and the Northern Tracker out on the table and ready, and you have two enemies engaged with you: a King Spider, and some Black Forest Bats. You have already resolved their attacks against you, and now it's time for you to declare attacks against them.

You look at the enemies, and decide that it's better to kill the King Spider outright, by having Dúnhere and the Northern Tracker team up. You know that if you do so, both of them will be exhausted and not able to attack the Black Forest Bats afterwards, so the bats will survive to the next round, but you figure you can deal with the bats next round. So you declare an attack against the King Spider, and exhaust both Dúnhere and the Northern Tracker to participate in the attack. As I mentioned before, that means they have 4 attack against its 1 defense, so they do 3 damage which is enough to kill it.

At this point, your friend who you're playing a two-player game with says, "Hey, I'm going to play Ever Vigilant and ready your Northern Tracker." This is a legal play, because Ever Vigilant is an Action event. And Actions can be played at any time when there's an "action window", even during someone else's turn. See pages 30-31 of the rules, but note that that one doesn't show every single action window because it would be too big. In particular, there is an action window in between attacking each enemy. So your friend plays Ever Vigilant to ready your Northern Tracker.

And now you do have a character who's ready, so you can declare an attack against the Black Forest Bats after all. And even though the Northern Tracker participated in an attack already, there is NO rule about how many attacks a character can participate in. The only rule is that they have to be ready (not exhausted). So if you have a way to ready a single character ten times, they could attack ten enemies if there are that many on the table.
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Robin Munn

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Gemaskerde Muchacho wrote:
So he can take part in a group attack on a engaged enemy and then still do his stagging attack?!


Yes, if you can ready him in between the two. If he takes part in a group attack, he must exhaust to do so. (ALL characters participating in a group attack must exhaust to take part.) Then if you have, say, put Unexpected Courage on him earlier (which lets you exhaust the Unexpected Courage card* to ready the hero it's attached to), you can use its ability to ready him, and then he can use his special ability on a second attack. (But if you do use his special ability, he MUST attack alone during the attack when you're using it, because that's a specific requirement of his ability).

* And here's ANOTHER rule that new players often get wrong. When you exhaust a hero, you're going to find it natural to take ALL the cards attached to him and turn them sideways at the same time. But that's not how it works. Characters and attachments exhaust separately: if you exhaust the character, it does not exhaust the attachment. And if you exhaust the attachment, it does not exhaust the character unless the ability says it does. Lots of attachments are like Unexpected Courage, and have an ability that reads "Exhaust this attachment to (do something)". That serves as a once-per-round limit on that ability, but you can still use that character after the attachment is exhausted. Or if you used that character to attack earlier, and the character is now exhausted, you can still use the attachment's ability. The only time an attachment will exhaust the character it's attached to is if its ability says so: some particularly powerful attachments have an ability that reads "Exhaust this attachment and attached hero to ..."
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Nico Muchacho
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rmunn wrote:
Gemaskerde Muchacho wrote:
So he can take part in a group attack on a engaged enemy and then still do his stagging attack?!


Yes, if you can ready him in between the two. If he takes part in a group attack, he must exhaust to do so. (ALL characters participating in a group attack must exhaust to take part.) Then if you have, say, put Unexpected Courage on him earlier (which lets you exhaust the Unexpected Courage card* to ready the hero it's attached to), you can use its ability to ready him, and then he can use his special ability on a second attack. (But if you do use his special ability, he MUST attack alone during the attack when you're using it, because that's a specific requirement of his ability).

* And here's ANOTHER rule that new players often get wrong. When you exhaust a hero, you're going toe find it natural to take ALL the cards attached to him and turn them sideways at the same time. But that's not how it works. Characters and attachments exhaust separately: if you exhaust the character, it does not exhaust the attachment. And if you exhaust the attachment, it does not exhaust the character unless the ability says it does. Lots of attachments are like Unexpected Courage, and have an ability that reads "Exhaust this attachment to (do something)". That serves as a once-per-round limit on that ability, but you can still use that character after the attachment is exhausted. Or if you used that character to attack earlier, and the character is now exhausted, you can still use the attachment's ability. The only time an attachment will exhaust the character it's attached to is if its ability says so: some particularly powerful attachments have an ability that reads "Exhaust this attachment and attached hero to ..."


Good one!
The other stuff you say is the way we play it already.. Iv seen reviews, i read the rulebook a lot of times so im prety sure we play it good now...
Thanks a lot!
 
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