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Subject: Coming back from a 5-1 deficit. rss

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Ryan McGuire
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Spymaster: me
The one other person with me on the Blue team is the 13 yo son of one of the Red team members.

Blue: 9 to go. Clue: Tennis 2, cluing Racket and Net. Teammate guesses Dog, because dogs play with tennis balls. That's Red.

Red: 7 to go. Some clue for 2. They get them.

Blue: Still 9 to go. Clue: Mammal 2, hoping for Horse and Bear. Mammoth was also available as an innocent bystander. Also Leprechaun was available as one of ours. I'm just hoping my teammate will pick at least of our words before picking Mammoth. Nope. Mammoth - innocent bystander. I took a chance and lost.

Red: 5 to go. A clue for 2 they get them.

Blue: 9 to go. Some clue for 2. Teammate guesses the two correct words plus Racket (from Tennis).

Red: 3 to go: They see that we still have 6, so they start playing it a little safe. Some clue for 1. They get it.

Blue: 6 to go. Clue: Archeology 2, cluing Hole and Aztecs. Teammate gets Hole plus a random innocent bystander.

Red: 2 to go: The other Spymaster sees that we still 5 to go and figures they'll get one more turn and so cruises along with some clue for 1. They get it.

Blue: 5 to go and the Red team has only 1. I still have to get my teammate to guess Stock, Leprechaun, Microscope, Net (from Tennis) and Aztec (from Archeology). BUT... I don't know whether he thinks the last Archeology word is Microscope or Aztecs. The only clue I can come up with that ties together Stock, Leprechaun and either Aztec or Microscope is "Money". Stocks are worth money, Leprechauns have a pot of gold. Aztecs had a lot of gold. My only hope is that he decides that Microscope goes with Archeology from a general sciency standpoint, and therefore Aztecs go with money. So... Money - 5. As you might guess from the title of this post, it worked out perfectly: Net, Microscope, Stocks, Leprechaun, Aztecs. Boom... mic drop. Oh yes... that just happened.

(On a side note, Death was the Assassin word.)
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Christian Kløve
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Cool! Well done.

Now, I hate to be 'that guy', but that last play was actually illegal, since money only referred to 3 of the items. You could have done 'Money - infinity', but if you give a number, it has to relate to that number of cards.

... but you on you that you synched up at the last moment.
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Tilou
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Kløve wrote:


Now, I hate to be 'that guy', but that last play was actually illegal, since money only referred to 3 of the items. You could have done 'Money - infinity', but if you give a number, it has to relate to that number of cards.


Doesn't say so in the rules. It says you may use "unlimited" if you wish so.
 
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Christian Kløve
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tilouboy wrote:
Kløve wrote:


Now, I hate to be 'that guy', but that last play was actually illegal, since money only referred to 3 of the items. You could have done 'Money - infinity', but if you give a number, it has to relate to that number of cards.


Doesn't say so in the rules. It says you may use "unlimited" if you wish so.


If you use a number, the clue has to relate to that number of cards.
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Tilou
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Well, I disagree.
 
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Paul Grogan
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Christian is correct. You cannot say "MONEY 5" unless you can actually link 5 words to money.

This is what the Unlimited rule is for. To allow a team to catch up and go back on old clues that they missed.
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Ryan McGuire
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If I understand correctly, that rule is in place so that the number doesn't become part of the clue. Bush 43, Motel 6, Oceans 11, Fahrenheit 451.

There was enough table talk from the non-Spymasters that everyone knew that any clue I gave was going to be for three new words plus one for Tennis and one for Archeology, so the number I said on that turn made no difference. Everyone knew I meant, "Money - whatever number I have to say to give my teammate five guesses." Besides, if push comes to shove, I could make the argument that in some twisted way Microscope and Net both relate to Money as well.

If the other team wants to retroactively take our victory now two days later on that technicality, that's fine -- we'll still know we were better than them. ...that game.
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Paul Grogan
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You could also say "Money 4" - that would allow your team 5 guesses

And yeah, as long as you can link the word IN ANY WAY, its ok, no matter how tenuous.

The rule is there to stop people falsely inflating the number to allow their team more guesses - which is why the unlimited rule was introduced.

Microscopes - you buy them with money
Net - is a film with Sandra Bullock. Films cost a lot of money to make.
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Kevin Johnson
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Net Profit, Net Loss, Net Worth, there's plenty of Money links for Net. Microscope is more of a stretch.
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Georg Bauer
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Kirk Monsen
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tilouboy wrote:
Kløve wrote:


Now, I hate to be 'that guy', but that last play was actually illegal, since money only referred to 3 of the items. You could have done 'Money - infinity', but if you give a number, it has to relate to that number of cards.


Doesn't say so in the rules. It says you may use "unlimited" if you wish so.


From the rules under Giving a Clue:
Quote:
You also say one number, which tells your teammates how many codenames are related to your clue.


In your example you said Money 5. If I was playing, since there were 5 left, I would disregard any clues I could not relate to money even if I could relate them to a previous clue.
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Tilou
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MunchWolf wrote:
tilouboy wrote:
Kløve wrote:


Now, I hate to be 'that guy', but that last play was actually illegal, since money only referred to 3 of the items. You could have done 'Money - infinity', but if you give a number, it has to relate to that number of cards.


Doesn't say so in the rules. It says you may use "unlimited" if you wish so.


From the rules under Giving a Clue:
Quote:
You also say one number, which tells your teammates how many codenames are related to your clue.


In your example you said Money 5. If I was playing, since there were 5 left, I would disregard any clues I could not relate to money even if I could relate them to a previous clue.


It is the last turn. There are 5 words left to guess. So he should have said unlimited instead of 5. That's your point?
 
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Kirk Monsen
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tilouboy wrote:
It is the last turn. There are 5 words left to guess. So he should have said unlimited instead of 5. That's your point?


My point:
Kløve wrote:
if you give a number, it has to relate to that number of cards.

tilouboy wrote:
Doesn't say so in the rules.

MunchWolf wrote:

From the rules under Giving a Clue:
Quote:
You also say one number, which tells your teammates how many codenames are related to your clue.

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Yit Ng
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Cmon, who's gonna go back and check when the game is over?
 
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Christian Kløve
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yitjuan wrote:
Cmon, who's gonna go back and check when the game is over?


Go back and check what?
 
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R. O. Schaefer
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Don't want to nitpick - just want to give hints that there is still something to discover in this game:

ryanker wrote:
Spymaster: me
The one other person with me on the Blue team is the 13 yo son of one of the Red team members.

Blue: 9 to go. Clue: Tennis 2, cluing Racket and Net. Teammate guesses Dog, because dogs play with tennis balls. That's Red.


Obviously I don't know all the words available, but while this made "mammals" possible later as a side effect, it's still an unexpected guess, maybe induced by the age of your team member ;-)


ryanker wrote:

Blue: Still 9 to go. Clue: Mammal 2, hoping for Horse and Bear. Mammoth was also available as an innocent bystander. Also Leprechaun was available as one of ours. I'm just hoping my teammate will pick at least of our words before picking Mammoth. Nope. Mammoth - innocent bystander. I took a chance and lost.


If your team mate is more experienced, he would start with Racket or Net at this point, when the mammals weren't all that clear. Btw what happened to Horse and Bear? You never mention them later, only this:

ryanker wrote:

Blue: 9 to go. Some clue for 2. Teammate guesses the two correct words plus Racket (from Tennis).


So you gave a clue for the mammals again?
I've counted:
Stock, Leprechaun, Microscope, Net, Aztec, Hole, Racket, Horse, Bear

That shouldn't have been required. Maybe your memory tricked you and there was one round less. On the other hand you probably would have remembered a 7-1 deficit last round ...

ryanker wrote:

Blue: 6 to go. Clue: Archeology 2, cluing Hole and Aztecs. Teammate gets Hole plus a random innocent bystander.


Giving your later arguments: Maybe "Archelogy 3" including Microscope? Than again I don't know the other words. Archeology might be already tricky in general, given that "death" is the assassin.

ryanker wrote:

Red: 2 to go: The other Spymaster sees that we still 5 to go and figures they'll get one more turn and so cruises along with some clue for 1. They get it.


I don't know the age of the other spy master, but giving clues for 1 is no fun in general and "still 5 to go" is simply the wrong way to count. It was very obvious that your teammate should name Aztec/Microscope and Net next round - so at the very most you had 3 to go in reality, maybe less (you didn't name your one inbetween clue).

Just to say my opinion. Everyone is of course entitled to have fun with the game and play it as he/she likes it.
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R. O. Schaefer
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PaulGrogan wrote:
You could also say "Money 4" - that would allow your team 5 guesses

And yeah, as long as you can link the word IN ANY WAY, its ok, no matter how tenuous.

The rule is there to stop people falsely inflating the number to allow their team more guesses - which is why the unlimited rule was introduced.


Falsly inflating the number would be a very risky strategy anyway, as your team doesn't know you inflated the number - except situations when it is clear they should try to finish.

I wouldn't mind using an inflated number to say to your team "please try to finish". You could prohibit this and then everyone would use a zero clue at this point instead. The difference is just technical, because there is no other good use for a zero clue imho anyway or it should be very, very rare. You want to give hints for your words, not hints against the assassin only for instance.

The are subtler ways to hint at the assassin, usually by hinting at your words in a non-obvious way, declining obvious relations to the assassin, you would probably have used instead, if the assassin word would be yours. I don't know, if this sentence makes any sence to you - I'm just not a native speaker ;-)

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Max DuBoff
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I've found that 0s are either situational, when the team is about to tap the assassin, or when there's a whole bunch of a category (e.g. animals) and only one that's not a certain color.
 
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R. O. Schaefer
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Kløve wrote:
tilouboy wrote:
Kløve wrote:


Now, I hate to be 'that guy', but that last play was actually illegal, since money only referred to 3 of the items. You could have done 'Money - infinity', but if you give a number, it has to relate to that number of cards.


Doesn't say so in the rules. It says you may use "unlimited" if you wish so.


If you use a number, the clue has to relate to that number of cards.


As we very very rarely use zero tipps and unlimited tipps, I've mixed them up a bit in my previous post. Both have no limit for the number of guesses, but are technically different clues.

Still I think, inflating number for the last round is a non-issue. There is a part in the german rules that says "the number shall indicate the number of words the clue is given for". Although I see from a quote there is no "shall" in the english rules, I regard this more as an explanation of how the game works than a strict rule. It's not mentioned in the section that tells you what is against the spirit of the game. Here it's important that the number does not perform as the main clue itself and you don't refer to rhymes, position in the grid etc.

From a strategical point of view you should use unlimited tipps as a finishing attempt only. Otherwise you will give your team less information than possible. The fact that there exist unlimited tipps as an option, indicates you should use them in the case mentioned. But inflating for last round instead is just a way to say it more implicit - thus no cheating (it will be clear what is mentioned in context anyway). In every other case I'm pretty sure "inflating" would backfire. This already happens quite often, when the spy master increases the number with some very loose connections - sort of "soft inflating" so to speak.

MunchWolf wrote:

From the rules under Giving a Clue:
Quote:
You also say one number, which tells your teammates how many codenames are related to your clue.


In your example you said Money 5. If I was playing, since there were 5 left, I would disregard any clues I could not relate to money even if I could relate them to a previous clue.


Not having in mind previous clues is a strange way to play. In fact, the guessers could always start with a left over from previous rounds as they have one more guess anyway. They might just not get the money connection or are unsure about it. Often enough this is the best strategy as well.
By your standards one of the clues was illegal anyway - so how you decide which one?

MD1616 wrote:
I've found that 0s are either situational, when the team is about to tap the assassin, or when there's a whole bunch of a category (e.g. animals) and only one that's not a certain color.


Using a zero clue to warn against assassin usually means you cannot give any constructive information about your words, except the zero clue is so perfect, that he describes not only the assassin, but any other remaining bystander and opponent's word, which is barely possible. So you should lose anyway - at least it's very likely.

The animal example: If the fourth animal is a bystander, just go with your animal 3 clue. It's a much safer way. Even if your team starts with the bystander, not much harm is done as you've given the information and they will catch up later. It's of course up to the spymaster to give such ambigious, but still safe clues more in the beginning and not the end of the game.
Even if one of the words is opponent's team it's sometimes worth to just go straight for the clue if it's a large number, although you will wait a bit.
I had once Bach, Maler, Strauss, Tempo (pace) while Note (which is also school grade in german) was opponent's word. So there, are three composers, which all have other meanings in german as well. You could argue this, because Gustav Mahler has an "h", but I didn't knew this at the time and allowing consonance is an option by the rules anyway. I waited a bit, but as they had teacher and other relating stuff anyway, making "Note" easy to explain, I went for "allegro 4" after some waiting. My team eventually picked up "note" at some point, but it wasn't a big deal.

If the fourth animal is the assassin, it gets tricky. But ruling this out with some sort of zero tipps might not neccessarily lead your team to the other animals and/or gets tricky/dangerous anyway.
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Kirk Monsen
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Califax wrote:

MunchWolf wrote:

From the rules under Giving a Clue:
Quote:
You also say one number, which tells your teammates how many codenames are related to your clue.


In your example you said Money 5. If I was playing, since there were 5 left, I would disregard any clues I could not relate to money even if I could relate them to a previous clue.


Not having in mind previous clues is a strange way to play. In fact, the guessers could always start with a left over from previous rounds as they have one more guess anyway. They might just not get the money connection or are unsure about it. Often enough this is the best strategy as well.
By your standards one of the clues was illegal anyway - so how you decide which one?


I did not say disregard all previous clues. I said I would disregard anything I could not relate to money.

By saying Money 5, and there are 5 answers left, that means all five relate to money. I would be looking for any word that related to money focusing on anything related to money and a previous clue. Anything that related to a previous clue that DID NO relate to money I would disregard.

Califax wrote:
It's not mentioned in the section that tells you what is against the spirit of the game.


It's mentioned in the how to play rules, as I have previously cited. Why would they need to repeat a rule? What rule books spend time repeating straightforward rules?
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R. O. Schaefer
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I understand what you were trying to say and think we won't agree on the mindset, we are playing this game with - at least not regarding this specific point.

My point is just this: Is inflating the number against the spirit of the game - even in the strict, cheating-free sense (which I very much prefer)? I was trying to make clear why for me it's not. As opposed to using rhymes etc.

You are right from a technical point of view. Although btw the unlimited rule is not an integral part of the rules, but is called "for experts" or something like this.
I usually skip explaining zero clues and unlimited clues to new players for first round, because it might just irritate. I may forget to mention it later and so inflating as a finishing attempt might evolve naturally. I see absolutely no problem with this.

So let's agree to disagree.

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Christian Kløve
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Califax wrote:
My point is just this: Is inflating the number against the spirit of the game

Yes.
Califax wrote:
So let's agree to disagree.

Yes.
 
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R. O. Schaefer
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Kløve wrote:
Califax wrote:
My point is just this: Is inflating the number against the spirit of the game

Yes.


Would you mind to explain why? It should give you some unfair advantage for this being true.
 
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Christian Kløve
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Califax wrote:
Kløve wrote:
Califax wrote:
My point is just this: Is inflating the number against the spirit of the game

Yes.


Would you mind to explain why? It should give you some unfair advantage for this being true.


For me, the word clue given should relate to the number of cards given as the number part of the clue. My objection to the chain of events was, that this was not the case, and in the reference game it allowed the guessers to get more guesses, than they would have, if the correct number was given.

This is why there is an option to give the number 'Unlimited'. This allows for all the guesses you could want, and doesn't go against the rule that the number must relate to the cards.

Consider the situation where they correctly guessed 4 of the items. The number 5 was given, so the opposing team would have an expectation that one of the remaining cards is related to the word clue given - this influences their decision. This would be against the spirit of the game, in my opinion.
 
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Tilou
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Kløve wrote:
Califax wrote:
Kløve wrote:
Califax wrote:
My point is just this: Is inflating the number against the spirit of the game

Yes.


Would you mind to explain why? It should give you some unfair advantage for this being true.


For me, the word clue given should relate to the number of cards given as the number part of the clue. My objection to the chain of events was, that this was not the case, and in the reference game it allowed the guessers to get more guesses, than they would have, if the correct number was given.

This is why there is an option to give the number 'Unlimited'. This allows for all the guesses you could want, and doesn't go against the rule that the number must relate to the cards.

Consider the situation where they correctly guessed 4 of the items. The number 5 was given, so the opposing team would have an expectation that one of the remaining cards is related to the word clue given - this influences their decision. This would be against the spirit of the game, in my opinion.


The problem with this view is that you can always establish a connection between two words, so much so that often the guessers don't see or even understand the connections made by the clue-giver.

I too interpret the rule as only explaining the main gist of the game and not restricting the number of clues to the connection.
 
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