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Subject: Cornering/Speed Question (3M rules ONLY) rss

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JP Trostle
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This came up last night in a race where I introduced the 3M version of the game to a bunch of 20-somethings (including two programmers and a writer).

A heated discussion broke out over whether a player in a corner, beginning a new game turn with his car in the last marked square in a corner (100mph in this case), could accelerate to 160. Note: the car had been following the arrow, going 120mph, so had not incurred the penalty the previous game turn.

Their argument was the rules only state a penalty is applied when a car *enters* corner, and that if they were already *in* the corner, they could accelerate out of it at a higher speed without further penalty.

I said the way we had always played it is that you compared your speed marked on the dial for that turn to the safe speed printed in the corner space.

Which one is correct in the 3M version?
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T. Dauphin
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The language is chosen very carefully.
Your speed applies to the square that you enter.
The square you start in, you already dealt with, because you entered it last turn and had to abide by the limit then.

This is similar to wargames that tell you the cost of moving is paid for each hex you enter.

If you think about the number of squares that are identified with the given speed limit, you should only have the restriction applied to that many squares. These are counted as you enter them, but if you had to count any *again* as you left them, that would increase the number of squares that limit your speed. This would be unfair to any car which landed on such a square compared to any car that managed to pass over them all in one turn.



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Mike Hoyt
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You specified the 3M rules, which I have never seen, but the AH rules are clear

Quote:
6.5 If a car is unable to complete a corner during a move, it may continue at the same or slower speed during the next move with no additional penalty...


Italics in the rules

This is a great rule. It makes getting through a corner in one turn imperative so you can accelerate the next turn. Or, sometimes, it makes sense to just barely reach a corner, at excess speed, knowing you'll only pay the penalty once.

Now I want to go look up how it is done in Championship Formula Racing which is the soon to be published successor to Speed Circuit
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Fabio Pellegrino
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I fully agree ,
we in Italy play the same way.
Many player instead love to accelerate from last square corner (house rule), like exit from that......but this rule change all parametyers of the tracks.
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T. Dauphin
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I don't see the need for the house rule.
If you enter the last square of a corner you have completed the corner. The next square you enter will not be a corner square so you are legally entitled to accelerate without penalty.

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Fabio Pellegrino
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tanik wrote:

I don't see the need for the house rule.
If you enter the last square of a corner you have completed the corner. The next square you enter will not be a corner square so you are legally entitled to accelerate without penalty.



It is a wrong interpretation, rules says :

A corner is any space containing a posted speed
limit. A corner can be composed of any number of
adjacent corner spaces. (so last square still is a corner)

A car which has not completed a corner during a
move may not elect to increase its speed in the
following turn should that increase exceed posted
speed or arrow limits.



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JP Trostle
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blockhead wrote:
You specified the 3M rules, which I have never seen, but the AH rules are clear

Quote:
6.5 If a car is unable to complete a corner during a move, it may continue at the same or slower speed during the next move with no additional penalty...


Italics in the rules

This is a great rule. It makes getting through a corner in one turn imperative so you can accelerate the next turn. Or, sometimes, it makes sense to just barely reach a corner, at excess speed, knowing you'll only pay the penalty once.



Ah yes, I made this point too — and the player countered with "I haven't paid a penalty yet, so why would there be an additional penalty" [remember, he was following the arrow with its benefits.]

It's abundantly clear if you exceeded the speed in a way that cost you Wear, you only had to pay it once for that corner. But he hadn't done that for this particular corner.
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Mike Hoyt
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Right. But you still can't accelerate if you start in a corner space.

(again, this is the AH rule. Hope somebody posts the 3M rule)
 
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Jeff Stone
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T. Dauphin
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blockhead wrote:
Right. But you still can't accelerate if you start in a corner space.

(again, this is the AH rule. Hope somebody posts the 3M rule)


So has this just become general consensus or can somebody identify an authority (Q&A or something) that clarifies this?

AH's All-Star Replay (Vol.II#3) printed the following,

Driving to Win in Speed Circuit wrote:

Now for a short word on the rules. One of the main points of confusion concerning Speed Circuit is the speed change in a corner. As a simulation of real driving techniques, a car is allowed to increase its speed on the last corner space...


Contrary to a previous post this is not a variant.
This is Avalon Hill publishing an article with a rule clarification.
It's the most definitive explanation of the issue I have ever seen and coupled with the logic of paying penalties and costs for the square *entered* is quite a decisive clarification for my purposes.

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Douglas Schulz
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blockhead wrote:
Now I want to go look up how it is done in Championship Formula Racing which is the soon to be published successor to Speed Circuit


Championship Formula Racing allows acceleration from the last space of a corner.
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Mike Hoyt
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Thanks Tanik and Doug, that seems pretty definitive that a car starting a turn in the last square of a corner can accelerate.

The (at least my) confusion stems from the phrase "not yet completed". A car that finishes Turn 1 on the last square of a corner has "not yet completed" when it comes time to write speed for Turn 2.

All other references are to the next square the car will enter.

Here is the actual rule from Championship Formula Racing that Doug mentioned
Quote:
The Last Space of a Corner
As a point of clarification, because you deal with speeds in corners when you enter corner spaces, if you end a move on the last space of a corner you have effectively cleared the corner. You will not enter another space in that corner when you move next turn so your move is not restricted by the corner you are leaving.
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T. Dauphin
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And this seems to be what throws a lot of people off.
You're actually sitting in the corner when it's time to start your next turn. It does appear as though you should be counted as in the corner.
Too bad Speed Circuit's rules weren't as clear as Championship Formula Racing.

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Mike Hoyt
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tanik wrote:

And this seems to be what throws a lot of people off.
You're actually sitting in the corner when it's time to start your next turn. It does appear as though you should be counted as in the corner.
Too bad Speed Circuit's rules weren't as clear as Championship Formula Racing.



or, this just makes me look forward to CFR all the more!

(but I will have to rethink cornering, apparently I've been playing this wrong for decades)
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Douglas Schulz
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I think any system of rules that have been around as long as Speed Circuit's gets holes poked in it and accumulates miss-interpretations or confusions along the way.

I am hoping that I cleaned most of those up with CFR (or intentionally changed them) but I suspect I also created new ones. :)
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JP Trostle
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philottee wrote:


Ok, thanks — THIS was what I was looking for!

Again, only seeking clarification on the 3M version. Not going to muddy the waters with other rules sets. It's challenging enough to get eurofed 20-somethings to play a 45-year old title, especially considering not one of them has ever heard of Avalon Hill, or could care less about their ruling.)
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Joseph Groerek
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I played the Avalon Hill version of Speed Circuit dozens of times with multiple players in the 1980s. We, too, never considered a car on the last spot of the corner (one with a posted speed) to have "completed a corner." We considered the car still in the corner.

The rules that came with my Avalon Hill game (printed March 1982) state: "If a car is unable to complete a corner during a move, it may continue at the same or slower speed during the next move with no additional penalty."

I suppose what was really needed was a definition of "complete a corner." Viewing a car on the gameboard in the last corner spot, one does not get the visual impression that corner has been completed by the car.

The posted 3M directions do not seem to address the situation of starting a turn on the last corner spot. I believe the number 5 rule is a follow-up to the number 4 rule. It is saying, for example, that if a car finishes its turn in the second of three adjacent corner spots posted at 60, but is going 80, the wear unit is paid on the first turn, but to continue going 80 on the second turn in a 60 corner, no additional wear is paid.

The cited All Star Replay article was written by J.L. Burnett. I don't know what role he or she played in creating Speed Circuit, so I don't know how definitive his or her statement is. This person is not listed as one of the designers of the game.
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T. Dauphin
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I get how the visual of a car still in a corner space appears not to have completed the corner, and anticipating this confusion and expressing this clearly would have been a clever insight, agreed.

The authority of the article lies not with its author but with its being printed in an AH published magazine. Avalon Hill was not in the habit of publishing articles that expressed ideas contrary to the rules of their games--at least not without comment. They did, of course, print fan-created variants and scenarios all the time, but it was clear what these articles were.

Remember costs and penalties are paid as you enter a new space, so if you are sitting on the last space of a corner you have already paid any costs or penalties for being there. The next space you move to will not be a corner, so no corner penalties will apply.

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Jim Stearns
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tanik wrote:

And this seems to be what throws a lot of people off.
You're actually sitting in the corner when it's time to start your next turn. It does appear as though you should be counted as in the corner.
Too bad Speed Circuit's rules weren't as clear as Championship Formula Racing.



Two examples of Speed Circuit rules concerning "cornering" as found online... I've added these examples as food for thought, usage is left to the individuals playing the game, and not as the definitive interpretation.

CORNERING (From Copyright C 1971 by 3M Company, St. Paul, MN 55101)

1. To enter a corner without penalty, the driver must comply with the posted speed limits.
2. When changing lanes in the corner, the driver must comply with the new speed or be penalized.
3. By following the entire path of an arrow when cornering, a driver may exceed the posted speed by 20 mph without incurring a penalty.
4. If a driver is unable to reduce his speed to the posted limit or if he intentionally exceeds the limit, he must pay a penalty, as follows:

MPH >> Over Without Arrow With Arrow
20 Use I Wear unit —
40 Use 2 Wear units Use I Wear unit
60 Use 2 Wear units and Spinout* Use 2 Wear units
80 CRASH! (Out of race) CRASH! (Out of race)
*See Spinouts!

5. If the driver is unable to complete the corner during the turn, no penalty is imposed at the start of the next move since he has already paid the penalty.

SPINOUTS
1. When a spinout is indicated, the driver stops on the first space with a posted speed.
2. On his next turn, he must begin at his Start Speed (as shown on Performance Chart).
3. On subsequent turns. he may accelerate according to his Acceleration limits.



Speed Circuit [9. Aug. 2010]

6 CORNERING

6.1 A corner is any space containing a posted speed limit. A corner can be composed of any number of adjacent corner spaces.
6.2 To enter each corner space without penalty, the driver must comply with the posted speed limits of that space.
6.3 If a car follows the entire path of a printed arrow through a corner, it may exceed the posted speed by 20 mph without incurring a penalty.
6.4 If a car prematurely leaves the path of an arrow in a following turn it must retroactively pay whatever penalties it had avoided by following the arrow. If this results in a spinout the car spins out in the last arrow space occupied before attempting to leave the path of the arrow.
6.5 If a car is unable to complete a corner during a move, it may continue at the same or slower speed during the next move with no additional penalty. However, if the move carries the car into a different corner it would be subject to any penalties incurred due to excessive speed in the new corner.
6.5.1 A car which has not completed a corner during a move and that is not in the final space of the corner, may not elect to increase its speed in the following turn should that increase exceed posted speed or arrow limits.
6.5.2 The final space of a corner is the corner exit. A car in a corner exit MAY accelerate without paying additional WEAR penalties for that corner. [ASR 2- 3]
6.6 If a driver is unable to reduce his speed to the posted limit or if he intentionally exceeds the limit, he must consult the Cornering Chart.

CORNERING CHART
MPH > LIMIT PENALTY
20 Use 1 WEAR OR Consult the Chance Table
40 Use 2 WEAR OR use 1 WEAR AND Consult the Chance Table
60 Use 2 WEAR AND Spinout OR use 2 WEAR AND Consult the Chance Table

CHANCE TABLE
Die Roll Result
2-7 OK
8-9 Spinout
10-12 Crash
Remember to apply the SKILL Dice Roll Modifier

6.7 WEAR units used while Cornering do not decrease speed as in Deceleration, but allow the car to traverse corners at a faster speed.
6.8 When all WEAR units are exhausted, the car may not enter a corner more than 20 mph faster than the posted speed.
6.8.1 When all WEAR units are exhausted, all chance rolls must be made twice, with the worst result being applied. [ASR 2-3]


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