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Has anyone else seen this this morning on Kickstarter and just felt sickened by it?

I KNOW people can spend their money on what they want etc., I'm not saying anyone is WRONG to back it... but I am... but I'm not.

I don't really know what to make of it all, but it just feels disgusting at some level, that people are buying a card game with mini's for literally more than a thousand pounds (the highest level pledge that is, the Satan one. I know the core game is available for much less - but still an obscene amount for a game!).

Sure, I dislike mini's games in general. I find CMON's mountains of boxes of plastic vulgar and tacky. I don't play the games much so can't really comment on the game inside, but generally hear they're thinner than you'd really want. But all that... that's fine. A hundred quid here or there, fine whatever.

But this... Just so messed up. Something wrong. How anyone can ever justify backing this I honestly don't understand.

Money means different things to different people of course. 1%ers all over the world tonight will be spending WAY more than that for a bottle of wine with their meals. But that's someone else's world. That's not "real". This is real, and very much in my world on a daily basis, and I can't, and don't want to understand it for a second. I could afford it comfortably, I wouldn't miss the money really. But that single card game costs as much as a decent enough family car, a summer holiday, laser eye surgery... And it's ONE game. One that'll go on your shelf next to the other 10, 100, 1000 you already have.

That's just obscene.

Please don't tell me I'm wrong, there's just no need. As above, it's a free world, capitalism rules and all, I get it. Obviously it's "fine", whatever that means. It's just how I, and I hope, many many other people *feel*.
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I can understand what you're saying but these are all luxury items and are worth what people are willing to pay for them. You could spend £100 on a car or £100,000. They both essentially do the same thing. Why spend £2k on a TV when you could get one for much less that you can still watch stuff on. We all have different lines that mark the boundary between what we are willing to pay and what we aren't based on how we value things.

I've backed at one of the lower levels (have the core game already). Would I like all the extra expansions and stuff? Sure, it would be nice to have those options. Do I need them? Probably not, I doubt I'd ever get to play half of them and let's just ignore the problem of storing them all!). I'm just glad I've reached a point in my life where I no longer feel like I need to collect everything. These Kickstarters certainly feed into and exploit that compulsive nature in some of us.
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TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
It's just how I, and I hope, many many other people *feel*.


Your feelings don't really matter.
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On a personal level, I agree with OP, which is why I'm not backing it. It is a little obscene.

However, people will spend more than that on a holiday lasting 1 week. This game is likely to last longer than a week. You pay for an experience. You might spend £1500 on a holiday to fly to somewhere hot and read a book for a week. In contrast, spending £1500 on the best-produced board game there is, with enough content to last for months and months, doesn't seem that crazy. Some people spend £1500 upgrading their car's glovebox lining to leather. Is this game better value by contrast? Some people spend £1500 on a diamond ring because it looks pretty. Is this game better value by contrast (answer: absolutely). You are a Food Chain Magnate Fan- I would say that, objectively, KDM is better value than FCM, just on components. Some might say it's obscene to spend £70 on a box of poorly designed and produced cardboard!
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Whereas I agree with much of your core sentiment - "wow - expensive game is expensive. Look at the things people would rather have than money." your use of such emotive language as obscene / disgusting / wrong is judgmental and potentially inflammatory despite your claims to the contrary.

Maybe that is your aim? If you would like an echo-chamber to agree with you, I'm sure many will.

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So would you care to give a reason for your dislike other than "yuk"? Why it matters in the least? What precisely is obscene about it?

And why you hope others feel like yourself?

Oh, by the way, just because: you're wrong.
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It's greed that's sickening not the things that people are greedy for. I'm not saying that the people who buy this game are greedy because paying for it is the only way they can play it. Whether or not the people who produce it are guilty of greed is another matter and could only be established if we knew just how much profit they make out of selling the game.

As far as greed in general is concerned, well in my view it is a bad thing to be greedy and not only for those who lose out to the greed of others but also for the greedy themselves. Because in many cases their own greed ends up hurting them too, even though many of them would not realise it or ever admit to it. Greed however, has always been part of human nature and always will be. There's no getting away from it, some people will always want more than their fair share.
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Tzer wrote:
TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
It's just how I, and I hope, many many other people *feel*.


Your feelings don't really matter.


They do within the context of this thread. As far as the KS goes, of course not.
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Bigshowfan wrote:
Whereas I agree with much of your core sentiment - "wow - expensive game is expensive. Look at the things people would rather have than money." your use of such emotive language as obscene / disgusting / wrong is judgmental and potentially inflammatory despite your claims to the contrary.

Maybe that is your aim? If you would like an echo-chamber to agree with you, I'm sure many will.



Yes, I'm happy to agree with that. For whatever reason, it's just had a very directly emotional feeling inside me. Expensive game is expensive, but that applies at many levels of expense. This level of expense is just something else though. I'm sure it sounds sensational and OTT, but my feelings are similar to the reaction many of us had to Brexit, or Trump. Smaller scale, but closer to home. I guess it's that it's the frustration that much of my community seems to be endorsing this madness, not the game itself even. It's insane to me that people want to pay four figures for this, or other things I've slightly eluded to that'd get very RSP if I expanded on!
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It is for sure a huge amount of money. However, it has reached over $3,000,000 in funding.

While I respect it is not for you, I think it's easy to label things obscence and pass judgement on others, which I think you are doing a bit. Why rain on people's hopes and dreams?

This could be the single most thing these folks are excited about. In the big scheme of things, this might be what they most cherish to have.

There are so many hobbies where folks spend what you might spend on your car etc. Sometimes those folks spending car-esque money on their hobby buy a cheap car, or take cheap holidays, or don't eat out.

Why? Because of their pure, unadulterated love for their hobby. I am not going to critique those folks and I don't mean to suggest how much you love your hobby is linked to how much you spend on it - it clearly isn't. I think a hobby or passion can be what gives you that spark in your eye, makes you feel happy. And I am not sure who the judge is to be of what that price point should be.

I mean, you have over 200 titles in your collection. I imagine most of my friends and family would think that is obscene. I personally respect whatever their passions are - even doing sport can add up over the year - it is their money and they can do what they like with it. I personally think, if they spend it on whatever makes them happy, it's money pretty well spent.

I knew someone who lost over £1,000,000 gambling over the years. I used to think, what a crazy guy! That's what most folks will think. On the other hand, he made a lot of money in business, and now that he has passed away and I've spent more than a few pennies on my passions, I think: Who am I to judge him?

As much as I get excited about my hobbies (my other is astronomy, and I can tell you I would spend £20,000 in a heartbeat if I could afford it on my dream scope), gambling was his passion. It's what got him out of bed on a Saturday morning.

It might not meet everyone's approval, but I think in this life, if you find a little happiness, just cherish it and cherish the happiness of others. Try and be happy for them, even if you can't understand it.

I hope that when my son grows up, his memories of playing Memoir '44 or space combat models with me will be very special, and that is something I would find it hard to put a price of £50 or £75 as an upper limit on.

Of course, there are many folks who have to run on a tight budget and the cool thing is, there are some amazing games, some costing even less than £10. You do not have to spend a fortune. I hope my ramble is not a message of excess. It is more to support those who live their dream, whatever that may be.

I do think those minis have some incredible detail. Sure, they will not be to everyone's taste.

Cheers,

John

TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
Has anyone else seen this this morning on Kickstarter and just felt sickened by it?

I KNOW people can spend their money on what they want etc., I'm not saying anyone is WRONG to back it... but I am... but I'm not.

I don't really know what to make of it all, but it just feels disgusting at some level, that people are buying a card game with mini's for literally more than a thousand pounds (the highest level pledge that is, the Satan one. I know the core game is available for much less - but still an obscene amount for a game!).

Sure, I dislike mini's games in general. I find CMON's mountains of boxes of plastic vulgar and tacky. I don't play the games much so can't really comment on the game inside, but generally hear they're thinner than you'd really want. But all that... that's fine. A hundred quid here or there, fine whatever.

But this... Just so messed up. Something wrong. How anyone can ever justify backing this I honestly don't understand.

Money means different things to different people of course. 1%ers all over the world tonight will be spending WAY more than that for a bottle of wine with their meals. But that's someone else's world. That's not "real". This is real, and very much in my world on a daily basis, and I can't, and don't want to understand it for a second. I could afford it comfortably, I wouldn't miss the money really. But that single card game costs as much as a decent enough family car, a summer holiday, laser eye surgery... And it's ONE game. One that'll go on your shelf next to the other 10, 100, 1000 you already have.

That's just obscene.

Please don't tell me I'm wrong, there's just no need. As above, it's a free world, capitalism rules and all, I get it. Obviously it's "fine", whatever that means. It's just how I, and I hope, many many other people *feel*.
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hughwyeth wrote:
Some might say it's obscene to spend £70 on a box of poorly designed and produced cardboard!
Yes, but I think there's this division that maybe should be acknowledged more than it is. There's a manufacturing costs for a reasonable game vs the cost for pimping it out. And there are other notional types of costs as well, but when all of these costs are grouped under a single price tag, it's often hard to appreciate what the money is really for.

FCM IS expensive in its world, but I can explain why, and it makes sense. the costs ARE necessary within the way Splotters business works.

There's "sense" in KDM from the quality of the miniatures etc., however that's not a cost that relates to the gameplay etc. There's also, I feel, a lot of not-sense when it's down to the extra profit margins involved.
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In a world where some of us die because we can't get enough to eat or access to clean water. It is certainly obscene and a damming condemnation on our shared humanity.

I'm not sure what value there is in railing against this one, somewhat obscure example though.

We should all do better of looking after each other. If that's your call, I thoroughly agree.
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blackmeeple wrote:
It is for sure a huge amount of money. However, it has reached over $3,000,000 in funding.

While I respect it is not for you, I think it's easy to label things obscence and pass judgement on others, which I think you are doing a bit. Why rain on people's hopes and dreams?

This could be the single most thing these folks are excited about. In the big scheme of things, this might be what they most cherish to have.

There are so many hobbies where folks spend what you might spend on your car etc. Sometimes those folks spending car-esque money on their hobby buy a cheap car, or take cheap holidays, or don't eat out.

Why? Because of their pure, unadulterated love for their hobby. I am not going to critique those folks. I think a hobby or passion can be what gives you that spark in your eye, makes you feel happy. And I am not sure who the judge is to be of what that price point should be.

I mean, you have over 200 titles in your collection. I imagine most of my friends and family would think that is obscene. I personally respect whatever their passions are - even doing sport can add up over the year - it is their money and they can do what they like with it. I personally think, if they spend it on whatever makes them happy, it's money pretty well spent.

I knew someone who lost over £1,000,000 gambling over the years. I used to think, what a crazy guy! That's what most folks will think. On the other hand, he made a lot of money in business, and now that he has passed away and I've spent more than a few pennies on my passions, I think: Who am I to judge him?

As much as I get excited about my hobbies (my other is astronomy, and I can tell you I would spend £20,000 in a heartbeat if I could afford it on my dream scope), gambling was his passion. It's what got him out of bed on a Saturday morning.

It might not meet everyone's approval, but I think in this life, if you find a little happiness, just cherish it and cherish the happiness of others. Try and be happy for them, even if you can't understand it.

I hope that when my son grows up, his memories of playing Memoir '44 or space combat models with me will be very special, and that is something I would find it hard to put a price of £50 or £75 as an upper limit on.

Of course, there are many folks who have to run on a tight budget and the cool thing is, there are some amazing games, some costing even less than £10. You do not have to spend a fortune. I hope my ramble is not a message of excess. It is more to support those who live their dream, whatever that may be.

I do think those minis have some incredible detail. Sure, they will not be to everyone's taste.

Cheers,

John


Obviously value is impossible to define in so many ways. I think I agree with everything you say here, thanks.

Just because something has a value higher that the price tag, I don't think you can then say it's financially worth so much more. I guess really it's dangerous to force those things to connect. Maybe that's in favour of my position, maybe it's against it. Maybe both.

People make the "For the cost of you and your friends going to the cinema, you could buy this game twice!" kind of argument, which feels great and valid until you say "for the cost of this game, you could've paid for 10 home cooked meals with wonderful conversation". All three things could be equally good and price is really irrelevant when it all averages out.

The closest thing I've got in my head as a comparison are those designer phones, the ones that literally cost £20,000 and up. A crappy phone by any modern standard wrapped in gold and jewels. People queueing up for to buy the new iPhone I could equate to the CMON KS backers etc., but it's a very different situation when you slide that scale up, literally adding two 0's on the price, which is where these other phones come into he spectrum, and are generally laughed at by anyone would wouldn't buy one on a whim because they are so wealthy. Feels to me like something has changed in your values system by that point on the scale...
 
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Does it also sicken you the amount one could spend on X-wing or LCGs? What about magic?
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Registrau wrote:
Does it also sicken you the amount one could spend on X-wing or LCGs? What about magic?


I suppose that feels different as they, and the accompanying debts, get spread over time. Also though, they are often games that are played to the exclusion of others. I don't think that's where KDM is sitting. It's just another game, but happened to cost the earth because it's so ... something ...

MtG also never comes near me, so out of sight, out of mind. Which I think is very significant here. Also, Magic is surely a far far far "better" game as much as that can ever be judged, right?
 
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I wouldn't say I'm "sickened" by it in a general sense. More than I'm disgusted with myself knowing I'll never be able to throw $1,600 at a game (or anything else for that matter) just for pleasure. And that's my fault and my problem. I shouldn't be judging anyone else for being able to. It's the world we live in.

Hell, that's 50% more than what I have in my banking and savings accounts combined. It's just disheartening personally, really.

I have to admit I stared in horror when I first opened the KS page, though. Haha.
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TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
Registrau wrote:
Does it also sicken you the amount one could spend on X-wing or LCGs? What about magic?


I suppose that feels different as they, and the accompanying debts, get spread over time. Also though, they are often games that are played to the exclusion of others. I don't think that's where KDM is sitting. It's just another game, but happened to cost the earth because it's so ... something ...

MtG also never comes near me, so out of sight, out of mind. Which I think is very significant here. Also, Magic is surely a far far far "better" game as much as that can ever be judged, right?


Fair enough
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TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
it just feels disgusting at some level, that people are buying a card game with mini's for literally more than a thousand pounds


People buy patches of canvas with some paint on them and pieces of metal with synthetic gems for far larger piles of money. Besides, games with miniatures are a bit bigger hobby than usual board games. While you can unpack DOOM: The Board Game and play right away, in case of Kingdom Death: Monster you need to assemble and paint sculptures first. And this processes is kinda enjoyable on it's own.

However, while I agree with you about Big Boxes Bloated With Components, there is an important distinguish should be made. No matter how I love Japanese School of minimalistic board game design, a successful attempt to create something ingenious must be supported. And Kingdom Death is crafted of dreams and passion for sure. That's why this morning I was among others, helping this Kickstarter to reach 3 million dollars.

You know, when I open News, I don't want to read about a stupid card game or yet another dungeon crawler, which amount of safe design choices can compete with the amount of it's expansions. I want to see interesting and original projects, which offer something new to a genre, and I'm willing to pay for this opportunity. Because judging a game by the Minimum Viable Product Value is a bad way to shape our industry.
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Oh dear... said all that and then arrived at the supermarket and just bought a big TV because it was on offer, with no thought whatsoever. blush

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All aboard the judgement train eh? Seriously...

Kingdom Death: Monster is obviously a work of passion. It costs a fair amount to make the game, and its safe to say he decided to "max out" his passion in this instance. He could just as easily have done this without minis and make the game very reasonably priced. But he didn't. He decided to go all out. He basically followed (and accomplished) the "american dream". He put his heart and hard work into something he loves, and people who have the same passion as he does saw this and bought it. Thats really it. Throw in disposable income and there ya go.

Its super easy to be sickened by other peoples actions. Its more difficult to try and understand them.

In my opinion, stuff like KD:M gives me hope for the world. It tells me that anyone can go out there, and with hard work and effort, turn their dream into reality. And maybe make it big. How many of us would love to turn that idea we have into reality but just dont put in the effort???

I think thats what "sickens" me the most about this post: the fact that you just completely bypassed the fact that somebody CREATED this concept out of NOTHING and spent a significant amount of time, effort, and determination to see it come to life!!!! People want to support that. People are starving to support something genuine and I think this is that equivalent of 'genuine' and 'awesome' in the board game world.
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silencewalker wrote:
TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
it just feels disgusting at some level, that people are buying a card game with mini's for literally more than a thousand pounds


People buy patches of canvas with some paint on them and pieces of metal with synthetic gems for far larger piles of money.


Well paintings are typically individually hand made etc. there's nothing handmade here, it's mass produced. It's stuff falling out of a machine in a factory. Drifting into valuations of modern art is very dangerous territory though, esp for me!

Quote:
Besides, games with miniatures are a bit bigger hobby than usual board games. While you can unpack DOOM: The Board Game and play right away, in case of Kingdom Death: Monster you need to assemble and paint sculptures first. And this processes is kinda enjoyable on it's own.[q]

oh yeah, they aren't even painted... blimey...

[q]However, while I agree with you about Big Boxes Bloated With Components, there is an important distinguish should be made. No matter how I love Japanese School of minimalistic board game design, a successful attempt to create something ingenious must be supported. And Kingdom Death is crafted of dreams and passion for sure. That's why this morning I was among others, helping this Kickstarter to reach 3 million dollars.

What's ingenious about this game compared to any other? Honest question. The rules are just rules for another dungeony game, right? The minis are very high quality, but it's still just plastic being injected into moulds...? Seems the only new thing is arbitrarily making it all as expensive as possible, which has nothing to do with the game, and in any physical sense, nothing to do with game play. Would a cheaper mini not pain just fine? Obviously you *KNOW* it's higher quality, so psychology abounds there, which can't be ignored, but it's still just a dude on a map.

Quote:
You know, when I open News, I don't want to read about a stupid card game or yet another dungeon crawler, which amount of safe design choices can compete with the amount of it's expansions. I want to see interesting and original projects, which offer something new to a genre, and I'm willing to pay for this opportunity. Because judging a game by the Minimum Viable Product Value is a bad way to shape our industry.
Well go you I suppose. Just seems you're paying for the opportunity to pay a lot of money. I see nothing original in any meaningful way.
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rlong007 wrote:
I think thats what "sickens" me the most about this post: the fact that you just completely bypassed the fact that somebody CREATED this concept out of NOTHING and spent a significant amount of time, effort, and determination to see it come to life!!!! People want to support that. People are starving to support something genuine and I think this is that equivalent of 'genuine' and 'awesome' in the board game world.


But many many many people have done that, and will continue to do that with products that cost less than 10% of this. What's special about this guy compared to everyone else, besides the very very shiny sticker on it that says "I am special"? Why does he deserve extra credit just for making it as expensive as possible? It's not double the average cost, not triple... more than 10, 20 times for some pledge levels. and that's somehow implicitly good?
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Quote:
Well paintings are typically individually hand made etc. there's nothing handmade here, it's mass produced. It's stuff falling out of a machine in a factory. Drifting into valuations of modern art is very dangerous territory though, esp for me!


Dude seriously, this game didnt just create itself. Somebody had to do that. Whether its handmade or not its "creating".
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