Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Twilight Struggle» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about Defectors rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
John Clemente
United States
Seabrook
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Rule 4C. Headline Phase clearly says the ops value of the HL card determines which card goes first, with the USA going first in a tie.

Nothing in the text of Defectors negates this rule. "Play in headline phase to cancel USSR headline event including scoring card."

Therefore, by the rules it seems that Defectors only negates Soviet Headline cards of 2 ops or less. So, for example, if I (Soviet) headline Purge (4 ops), it takes effect before Defectors is considered.

I know Defectors is not played this way, I'm just saying a straight-forward reading of the rules and the card text leads to this conclusion.

What am I missing?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James
United States
flag msg tools
There are many exceptions and rules clarifications for this game. You simply have to look them up. One source of info is the official faq which addresses how defectors works:

http://www.gmtgames.com/nnts/FAQv5.pdf
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Gallo
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Honestly, I don't think it would have been that hard to add a clause to the card to say "If played during the Headline Phase, this card takes effect before any other headline card" or a clause to the rulebook that says "If a headline card modifies other headline cards, that card is resolved first"

FAQs should be clarifications that can be derived from the rules & card text, not rules in of themselves.

I saw a similar issue recently, technically no where in the rulebook does it say that you score the best of presence/domination/control instead of all that you qualify for.

Sure, common sense and the traditional way the game is played tells us what to do, but when the rulebook contradicts these, the rulebook should win, not vice-versa.

I guess with a game that is so popular as TS and a rulebook that is otherwise so polished and organized, I would have expected these issues to be resolved there.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tankboy
United States
Haslet
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
I know. It's an Awesome Avatar.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I believe this sums it up nicely. There should be no confusion here.

5.5 Except as noted in rule 10.1.5, card text that contradicts the
written rules supersedes the written rules.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Gallo
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Fly by Night wrote:
I believe this sums it up nicely. There should be no confusion here.

5.5 Except as noted in rule 10.1.5, card text that contradicts the
written rules supersedes the written rules.


Since Defectors doesn't actually say that its effect comes before it normally would in headline order there isn't a contradiction. Rule 5.5 doesn't apply with the way Defectors is worded.

If defectors actually said that it came first then 5.5 would suffice, but since it doesn't the way the FAQ describes the card isn't supported by the rulebook or the card.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bitchy Little Boy
Romania
Bucharest
Sector 3
flag msg tools
... so I can bear with you, please!
badge
Phil Eklund's games are like a bar of gold from a complete stranger.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb


The card states it replaces cancels USSR Headline events, including Scoring Cards i.e. it clearly indicates it replaces cancels any USSR down to the those considered as having 0 ops for the purposes of the Headline Phase.

Edit: dumb slip.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Gallo
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gmilitaru wrote:
The card states it replaces USSR Headline events, including Scoring Cards


Defectors doesn't say that. It uses the word "cancel", and it doesn't use the word "replace".

gmilitaru wrote:
i.e. it clearly indicates it replaces any USSR down to the those considered as having 0 ops for the purposes of the Headline Phase.


Defectors definitely does not "indicate it replaces any USSR down to the those considered as having 0 ops for the purposes of the Headline Phase." The card simply doesn't have any of those words on it and my point is that they should have added those words to the card.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the card doesn't work that the way the FAQ describes it or the way that everyone is playing it. I'm saying that it isn't supported by either the rulebook or the card itself.

People are reading into the rule book and the card and putting words there that aren't really there.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Clemente
United States
Seabrook
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you for confirming my point. I have no desire to see Defector's effectiveness cut in half. I'm just saying that if you read the rules and card text as currently written, it should not cancel cards with ops counts of 3 or 4.

We all know the intent is to cancel all Soviet HLs. So, the card text should simply say that.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Conor Hickey
Ireland
Dublin
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Necr0mancer wrote:


People are reading into the rule book and the card and putting words there that aren't really there.


The way it's worded ('cancel') is read as 'if the USSR Headline already happened, undo it, that card goes back into the discard pile if already there - if it hasn't happened yet, it does not occur, and the card is discarded.

We all know how the card works, I think you just have to read 'cancel' as pre-emptive or reactive, depending on the ops value of the USSR headline.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Snooze Fest
United States
Hillsborough
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
We love our pups!! Misu, RIP 28 Nov 2010. Tikka, RIP 11 Aug 2011.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TwoShedsJackson wrote:
Necr0mancer wrote:


People are reading into the rule book and the card and putting words there that aren't really there.


The way it's worded ('cancel') is read as 'if the USSR Headline already happened, undo it, that card goes back into the discard pile if already there - if it hasn't happened yet, it does not occur, and the card is discarded.

We all know how the card works, I think you just have to read 'cancel' as pre-emptive or reactive, depending on the ops value of the USSR headline.

I don't think that reading works well. After all, what if the USSR Headline triggered first and ended the game. Then, Defectors would never fire retroactively since the game would be over! Similar to how one can win (and end the game) before the held scoring card is revealed at the end of a round.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Clemente
United States
Seabrook
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Imagine you were playing a newbie ftf, who has played 2 or 3 games and understands the basic rules. If you Defectored his OPEC card and he said, "wait a minute, show me in the rules why my card is canceled", you would be hard pressed to make the case.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexey Memelau
Belarus
flag msg tools
mb
snoozefest wrote:
TwoShedsJackson wrote:
Necr0mancer wrote:


People are reading into the rule book and the card and putting words there that aren't really there.


The way it's worded ('cancel') is read as 'if the USSR Headline already happened, undo it, that card goes back into the discard pile if already there - if it hasn't happened yet, it does not occur, and the card is discarded.

We all know how the card works, I think you just have to read 'cancel' as pre-emptive or reactive, depending on the ops value of the USSR headline.

I don't think that reading works well. After all, what if the USSR Headline triggered first and ended the game. Then, Defectors would never fire retroactively since the game would be over! Similar to how one can win (and end the game) before the held scoring card is revealed at the end of a round.


The problem of unseeing what Ames had shown you would be even bigger.
Will need to call Men in Black, I guess.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Clemente
United States
Seabrook
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The easiest fix, I believe, would be to add text to Defectors card: "Always play first during Headline phase." Then rule 5.5 applies.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Conor Hickey
Ireland
Dublin
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Johneboy2 wrote:
The easiest fix, I believe, would be to add text to Defectors card: "Always play first during Headline phase." Then rule 5.5 applies.


This or make it a 4 ops card (guaranteeing it goes first in Headline) with a line of text 'if this card is played during an Action Round it is worth 2 fewer ops'
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Clemente
United States
Seabrook
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This simple edit of the card text solves the problem and abides by all game rules. Add two words to the current text:

Always play first in the Headline Phase to cancel USSR headline event including scoring card.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark J
United States
St. Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I kinda like the idea that a 3 or 4 ops wouldn't be canceled by Defectors. If you know USA has it on Turn 3 what would you do as USSR?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Gallo
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DiploGuy wrote:
If you know USA has it on Turn 3 what would you do as USSR?


Headline a US event devil
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Cabral
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DiploGuy wrote:
I kinda like the idea that a 3 or 4 ops wouldn't be canceled by Defectors. If you know USA has it on Turn 3 what would you do as USSR?


USSR has six 3-Op cards in the Early War.

You could use Socialist Governments, Warsaw Pact, Comecon, De Gaulle, Suez Crisis or De-stalinization without any fear of being blocked by Defectors. USSR already has the advantage in the Early War and Defectors not working for 3 or higher Ops would make the game a little more difficult than it already is for the US.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.