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Subject: Are Militia (etc.) discards silmutaneous? rss

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Chris Howlett
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Militia and friends tell affected players to "Discard down to 3 cards in hand". Supposing you start with a hand of 5, do you discard the cards simultaneously, or one at a time?

This matters if you hold, for instance: Tunnel, Watchtower, Gold, Gold, Platinum. Can you discard Tunnel, gain a Gold putting it on deck with Watchtower, then discard Watchtower; or must you discard both at once?

Bonus question: given a hypothetical card which read "Discard 2 cards", would your answer change?
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ackmondual
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Chowlett wrote:
Militia and friends tell affected players to "Discard down to 3 cards in hand". Supposing you start with a hand of 5, do you discard the cards simultaneously, or one at a time?

This matters if you hold, for instance: Tunnel, Watchtower, Gold, Gold, Platinum. Can you discard Tunnel, gain a Gold putting it on deck with Watchtower, then discard Watchtower; or must you discard both at once?

Bonus question: given a hypothetical card which read "Discard 2 cards", would your answer change?


For discards from A player, follow whatever the rules are laid forth by the game. Here, IIRC, you discard both cards at the same time, but you are allowed to only show the top card as you're discarding them as you put them into your discard pile.

For your Tunnel and Watchtower example, when getting hit with Militia, discard 1 Tunnel, reveal it, then reveal a Watchtower to top deck it. Ditto with the other Tunnel. Even if we were to take discards as simultaneous, you still resolve the reactions and other "interrupts" one at a time.

No change with discard 2 cards vs. discard down to 3.
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Clive Jones

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Chowlett wrote:
Bonus question: given a hypothetical card which read "Discard 2 cards", would your answer change?

No need to hypothesise. Inn is a real card which reads "Discard 2 cards". Cellar is the archetype for sifters, of course.

In my mind I'm very clear that if you discard N cards, you discard them simultaneously, if for no other reason than that we already know the other players only get to see the number of cards you discard and the face of the topmost one, not the faces of any of the others.

Militia is a far trickier case.
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Clive Jones

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ackmondual wrote:
Even if we were to take discards as simultaneous, you still resolve the reactions and other "interrupts" one at a time.

The issue is not whether you resolve triggers one at a time, but when you resolve them.

One option is that Militia has you discard cards one at a time until you have only three left in hand (so on-discard effects for each trigger before you discard the next).

The other optioin is that Militia has you discard several cards simultaneously, and then resolve the on-discard effects for all of them (in an order of your choosing).
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Donald X.
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Chowlett wrote:
Militia and friends tell affected players to "Discard down to 3 cards in hand". Supposing you start with a hand of 5, do you discard the cards simultaneously, or one at a time?

This matters if you hold, for instance: Tunnel, Watchtower, Gold, Gold, Platinum. Can you discard Tunnel, gain a Gold putting it on deck with Watchtower, then discard Watchtower; or must you discard both at once?

Bonus question: given a hypothetical card which read "Discard 2 cards", would your answer change?

You discard the cards all at once, with only the ends-up-on-top card revealed (and then can reveal Tunnel if it was one of the cards, whether or not you put it on top).
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Chris Howlett
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donaldx wrote:
Chowlett wrote:
Militia and friends tell affected players to "Discard down to 3 cards in hand". Supposing you start with a hand of 5, do you discard the cards simultaneously, or one at a time?

This matters if you hold, for instance: Tunnel, Watchtower, Gold, Gold, Platinum. Can you discard Tunnel, gain a Gold putting it on deck with Watchtower, then discard Watchtower; or must you discard both at once?

Bonus question: given a hypothetical card which read "Discard 2 cards", would your answer change?

You discard the cards all at once, with only the ends-up-on-top card revealed (and then can reveal Tunnel if it was one of the cards, whether or not you put it on top).


And that settles that . Thank you!

clivej wrote:
No need to hypothesise. Inn is a real card which reads "Discard 2 cards".

Oh yeah - d'oh!
 
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ackmondual
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And oh... As far as between players goes, THAT's done in turn order from the player who played the Militia.
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David Goldfarb
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clivej wrote:
Chowlett wrote:
Bonus question: given a hypothetical card which read "Discard 2 cards", would your answer change?

No need to hypothesise. Inn is a real card which reads "Discard 2 cards".

There's also Torturer.
 
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ackmondual
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David Goldfarb wrote:
clivej wrote:
Chowlett wrote:
Bonus question: given a hypothetical card which read "Discard 2 cards", would your answer change?

No need to hypothesise. Inn is a real card which reads "Discard 2 cards".

There's also Torturer.
You can always take a Curse
 
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David Goldfarb
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ackmondual wrote:
David Goldfarb wrote:
There's also Torturer.
You can always take a Curse

If you have a Tunnel in hand you might prefer not to.
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Clive Jones

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Surely taking the Curse instead of discarding is the default for most experienced players? (Unless your hand is green and purple, of course.)
 
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ackmondual
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David Goldfarb wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
David Goldfarb wrote:
There's also Torturer.
You can always take a Curse

If you have a Tunnel in hand you might prefer not to.
but then there might be a Mountebank around the corner
 
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Clive Jones

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Gosh. Given the choice to receive all of a Gold, a Copper and a Curse or none of them, I guess you'd normally decline. But it could depend a lot on both circumstances and kingdom!

Edit: on second thoughts, I'm not so sure. Cache demonstrates people will sometimes pay $5 for a Gold and two Coppers, so...
 
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Chad Weaver
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clivej wrote:
Surely taking the Curse instead of discarding is the default for most experienced players? (Unless your hand is green and purple, of course.)


I've played 5,000 games of Dominion. While everything is situational, my default is discarding when Tortured, unless of course the Curse pile is empty.
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Confusing Manifestation
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chadw09 wrote:
clivej wrote:
Surely taking the Curse instead of discarding is the default for most experienced players? (Unless your hand is green and purple, of course.)


I've played 5,000 games of Dominion. While everything is situational, my default is discarding when Tortured, unless of course the Curse pile is empty.

Whereas I'd take the Curse in a lot of situations, especially if I'm going to be hit with multiple Torturers (King's Court-Torturer? Probably Curse-Curse-Discard the curses.)
 
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Robert Crawford
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chadw09 wrote:
clivej wrote:
Surely taking the Curse instead of discarding is the default for most experienced players? (Unless your hand is green and purple, of course.)


I've played 5,000 games of Dominion. While everything is situational, my default is discarding when Tortured, unless of course the Curse pile is empty.


In the simplest of scenarios; "opponent plays torturer", I agree with you. Militia attack is way less painful than Witch attack in general.

However, I find that if we're just looking at all the times my opponent has played a torturer, then probably at close to half of those are situations in which I expect another Torturer to be played the same turn. If I expect that, then I'll take a curse and discard rather than discard down to 1!
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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I'll discard down to 1, now that we have a Diplomat!
 
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Nick Knutsen
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donaldx wrote:
Chowlett wrote:
Militia and friends tell affected players to "Discard down to 3 cards in hand". Supposing you start with a hand of 5, do you discard the cards simultaneously, or one at a time?

This matters if you hold, for instance: Tunnel, Watchtower, Gold, Gold, Platinum. Can you discard Tunnel, gain a Gold putting it on deck with Watchtower, then discard Watchtower; or must you discard both at once?

Bonus question: given a hypothetical card which read "Discard 2 cards", would your answer change?

You discard the cards all at once, with only the ends-up-on-top card revealed (and then can reveal Tunnel if it was one of the cards, whether or not you put it on top).


Are you referring to both Militia and Inn? Because you've previously ruled that you discard one at a time for Militia: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10683.msg4...
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Donald X.
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PunchBall wrote:
Are you referring to both Militia and Inn? Because you've previously ruled that you discard one at a time for Militia: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10683.msg4...

Yes, sorry; Inn is "discard 2 cards at once" while Militia is "repeatedly discard 1 card until at 3."
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Robert Crawford
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donaldx wrote:
PunchBall wrote:
Are you referring to both Militia and Inn? Because you've previously ruled that you discard one at a time for Militia: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10683.msg4...

Yes, sorry; Inn is "discard 2 cards at once" while Militia is "repeatedly discard 1 card until at 3."


Hmm, so does this mean that your opponent is allowed to see all the cards that were discarded to Militia? I believe ShuffleIT only tells you the last one.
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Chris Schumann
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donaldx wrote:
Inn is "discard 2 cards at once" while Militia is "repeatedly discard 1 card until at 3."

Another unfortunate instance where the same words on the card mean different things. Sorry to complain, especially since I can't think of a good way to fix it, but these examples stand out so sharply against the exceptionally smooth way nearly every other card plays. Your language is usually impeccable, and yeah. It's unfortunate.

(The other example is one about visiting with one card, and not visiting with another card, even though both have the same words.)

Actually, the other example has the exact same words, and this one does not, but it's pretty close.
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Robert Crawford
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Whizkid wrote:
donaldx wrote:
Inn is "discard 2 cards at once" while Militia is "repeatedly discard 1 card until at 3."

Another unfortunate instance where the same words on the card mean different things. Sorry to complain, especially since I can't think of a good way to fix it, but these examples stand out so sharply against the exceptionally smooth way nearly every other card plays. Your language is usually impeccable, and yeah. It's unfortunate.

(The other example is one about visiting with one card, and not visiting with another card, even though both have the same words.)

Actually, the other example has the exact same words, and this one does not, but it's pretty close.


Are you referring to Nomad Camp in regard to the visiting rule? Because the second edition printings have fixed the Nomad Camp wording.

And I think in the Inn/Militia wordings; the difference between "discard down to 3 cards" and "discard 2 cards" is different enough that the ruling is consistent/logical. To discard down to 3 to me implies that you would keep discarding until you are at 3.
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Chris Schumann
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GendoIkari_82 wrote:
Whizkid wrote:
donaldx wrote:
Inn is "discard 2 cards at once" while Militia is "repeatedly discard 1 card until at 3."

Another unfortunate instance where the same words on the card mean different things. Sorry to complain, especially since I can't think of a good way to fix it, but these examples stand out so sharply against the exceptionally smooth way nearly every other card plays. Your language is usually impeccable, and yeah. It's unfortunate.

(The other example is one about visiting with one card, and not visiting with another card, even though both have the same words.)

Actually, the other example has the exact same words, and this one does not, but it's pretty close.


Are you referring to Nomad Camp in regard to the visiting rule? Because the second edition printings have fixed the Nomad Camp wording.

And I think in the Inn/Militia wordings; the difference between "discard down to 3 cards" and "discard 2 cards" is different enough that the ruling is consistent/logical. To discard down to 3 to me implies that you would keep discarding until you are at 3.
Excellent news, all around.
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Gregory Swarthout
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GendoIkari_82 wrote:
Whizkid wrote:
donaldx wrote:
Inn is "discard 2 cards at once" while Militia is "repeatedly discard 1 card until at 3."

Another unfortunate instance where the same words on the card mean different things. Sorry to complain, especially since I can't think of a good way to fix it, but these examples stand out so sharply against the exceptionally smooth way nearly every other card plays. Your language is usually impeccable, and yeah. It's unfortunate.

(The other example is one about visiting with one card, and not visiting with another card, even though both have the same words.)

Actually, the other example has the exact same words, and this one does not, but it's pretty close.


Are you referring to Nomad Camp in regard to the visiting rule? Because the second edition printings have fixed the Nomad Camp wording.

And I think in the Inn/Militia wordings; the difference between "discard down to 3 cards" and "discard 2 cards" is different enough that the ruling is consistent/logical. To discard down to 3 to me implies that you would keep discarding until you are at 3.


Keep discarding until you have discarded 2 cards would be equivalent. Without any further context they both sound like all cards that make the effect true would be discarded at once.

Greg
 
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