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Subject: Quality of renders / minis rss

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Matti
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Are you guys happy with the quality of the sculpts? I'm a bit worried that the quality seems to vary quite a lot. For example Ornstein and Smough look ok to me, great even, but The Old Iron King is simply horrendous.
I have ten years of experience with 3d art and can recognise a bad Zbrush sculpt when I see it. The overlapping wrinkle/crack brush strokes makes it look amateurish and I can't fathom how they can accept such a bad quality.
If the renders look that bad, I don't even want to see the final miniatures. At least now they still have 6+ months to polish the mega bosses so there's a hope this was just rushed before the pledge manager closes.

Seriously, compare these and tell me what you think.



Phoenix from Kingdom Death: Monster


Old Iron King
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gary gee
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yeah one of the reasons I pulled out of it.. don't seem to be the quality we saw at the KS launch...but haven't they changed the company that's producing the minis..or am I getting mixed up?
 
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Matti
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tootz wrote:
yeah one of the reasons I pulled out of it.. don't seem to be the quality we saw at the KS launch...but haven't they changed the company that's producing the minis..or am I getting mixed up?


Too soon to say anything about the quality of the actual minis since everything they've shown of the mega bosses are just 3d renders. No company can produce great miniatures if the base sculpts/models are crap.

I don't know if someone at SFG is making the sculpts or if they've outsourced it but if it's the latter one, they should change the artist.
 
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The CGI renders indeed aren't appealing, especially compared to what I've seen from KD:M

I'm not experienced at all with miniatures. But I'm not found of what I've seen in the updates.
 
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I'm happy that I'm not alone thinking the Iron King model looks bad. Where are the details?
Maybe it's not fair comparing it to KDM but even comparing it to most other games currently on kickstarter it looks like done without much love to details.
And why is he having that weird smile in his face?
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Maybe I don't have the eye for detail as others do, but as a grey scale model he looks on point to me.

 
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Matti
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I highlighted some of the bad things on the 3d sculpt. The overlapping wrinkles especially on the wings are just unnatural and lazy sculpting and the whole sculpt is covered on them.
Also the horns just have two different brushes painted on top of each other instead of really making cracked horns. I guess it's more obvious to me as I know how the sculpting is done and this looks like it's been done by using the stock brushes and without actually doing a detailed modeling first.




It possibly is unfair to compare it to Kingdom Death but pretty much all of the other Kickstarted games have better sculpts.. I don't know about the quality of the final miniatures however.

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It does look similar. Doesn't mean it translates well into a 3D model. I personally understand where the OP is coming from. But at the same time Kindgom Death isn't a fair comparison as these will be preassembled and made of few pieces. They're not going for premium models but board game quality like Zombicide, Blood Rage and the like.
 
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masaiko wrote:
I highlighted some of the bad things on the 3d sculpt. The overlapping wrinkles especially on the wings are just unnatural and lazy sculpting and the whole sculpt is covered on them.
Also the horns just have two different brushes painted on top of each other instead of really making cracked horns. I guess it's more obvious to me as I know how the sculpting is done and this looks like it's been done by using the stock brushes and without actually doing a detailed modeling first.




It possibly is unfair to compare it to Kingdom Death but pretty much all of the other Kickstarted games have better sculpts.. I don't know about the quality of the final miniatures however.



Ah I see what you mean now. Thanks for highlighting it, it does look like it's folding over.

Logus Vile wrote:
It does look similar. Doesn't mean it translates well into a 3D model. I personally understand where the OP is coming from.


But it's already a 3D model. That's what Video games are, rendered 3D models with programmed behaviors. As was just pointed out to me perhaps the quality is lacking in the renders.

EDIT:

Btw what is Kingdom Death Monster? I have seen it get compared to DS just about everywhere on here so I assume it's something I might be interested in.
 
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Right, it is a 3d model but for a video game that has limitations due to graphics cards or whatever it is. A 3d render for sculpts usually have more definition and texture. For example his chest looks smooth instead of rugged. I probably can't explain it well but I know that render does not look up to par.

On another note, I do like the poses of the characters I saw in the video. I thought they were pretty dynamic.
 
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vincentdante wrote:
Btw what is Kingdom Death Monster? I have seen it get compared to DS just about everywhere on here so I assume it's something I might be interested in.


Looks like the perfect time to be interested in it Look at that! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-mon...

I hope you didn't plan on saving money next month!
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Razoupaf wrote:
vincentdante wrote:
Btw what is Kingdom Death Monster? I have seen it get compared to DS just about everywhere on here so I assume it's something I might be interested in.


Looks like the perfect time to be interested in it Look at that! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-mon...

I hope you didn't plan on saving money next month!


Damn that's expensive. But yeah the models look nice
 
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Geoff ...
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To further support OP's complaint about lazy modelling, check out the Gaping Dragon. I shit you not, they modelled one side, copy+flipX+pasted the other side and didn't even tweak it! So the body/legs/arms/even the teeth are IDENTICAL for the left and right sides.

/face palm
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Craig O'Connor
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masaiko wrote:
Are you guys happy with the quality of the sculpts? I'm a bit worried that the quality seems to vary quite a lot. For example Ornstein and Smough look ok to me, great even, but The Old Iron King is simply horrendous.
I have ten years of experience with 3d art and can recognise a bad Zbrush sculpt when I see it. The overlapping wrinkle/crack brush strokes makes it look amateurish and I can't fathom how they can accept such a bad quality.
If the renders look that bad, I don't even want to see the final miniatures. At least now they still have 6+ months to polish the mega bosses so there's a hope this was just rushed before the pledge manager closes.

Seriously, compare these and tell me what you think.



Phoenix from Kingdom Death: Monster


Old Iron King


Now I know this is going to sound overly defensive, but this is kinda skewed. You're showing an image of a physical resin sculpt of the phoenix from KDM to compare to a digital render of the Old Iron King. Of course the Phoenix is going to look better.

That being said, I do agree that the detailing in Dark Souls isn't great. At least the pre-release images. Personally, I think the images of Ornstein and Smough on the main page look kinda flat and uninspired.

The Images SFG released of the production model of the Titanite demon however did look awesome. And Sif could turn out to be a great mini.

I tend not to rely on digital renders for end product quality because my eyes register digital images really easily. I have backed Dark Souls, same as I've backed Kingdom Death. Another difference it Dark Souls is £80. Kingdom Death (with current exchange rates) is over £200 for the base game alone. Its a poor excuse I know, but the pricing is going to reflect the overall quality.
 
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gary gee
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The Waspman wrote:
masaiko wrote:
Are you guys happy with the quality of the sculpts? I'm a bit worried that the quality seems to vary quite a lot. For example Ornstein and Smough look ok to me, great even, but The Old Iron King is simply horrendous.
I have ten years of experience with 3d art and can recognise a bad Zbrush sculpt when I see it. The overlapping wrinkle/crack brush strokes makes it look amateurish and I can't fathom how they can accept such a bad quality.
If the renders look that bad, I don't even want to see the final miniatures. At least now they still have 6+ months to polish the mega bosses so there's a hope this was just rushed before the pledge manager closes.

Seriously, compare these and tell me what you think.



Phoenix from Kingdom Death: Monster


Old Iron King


Now I know this is going to sound overly defensive, but this is kinda skewed. You're showing an image of a physical resin sculpt of the phoenix from KDM to compare to a digital render of the Old Iron King. Of course the Phoenix is going to look better.

That being said, I do agree that the detailing in Dark Souls isn't great. At least the pre-release images. Personally, I think the images of Ornstein and Smough on the main page look kinda flat and uninspired.

The Images SFG released of the production model of the Titanite demon however did look awesome. And Sif could turn out to be a great mini.

I tend not to rely on digital renders for end product quality because my eyes register digital images really easily. I have backed Dark Souls, same as I've backed Kingdom Death. Another difference it Dark Souls is £80. Kingdom Death (with current exchange rates) is over £200 for the base game alone. Its a poor excuse I know, but the pricing is going to reflect the overall quality.
don't forget KDM is over £200 AND a 4 year wait at the very least [we are talking kickstarters here]
 
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Geoff ...
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tootz wrote:
don't forget KDM is ... a 4 year wait at the very least [we are talking kickstarters here]

No, the core KD game, including the 1.5 upgrades, will ship around July 2017. All 12 expansions from the first KS (assuming you buy them this time round) will ship Winter 2017. As will all promos/pinups/whatever that were in available back in KS1.

All the new expansions will ship in waves, the first being well before 2020. This is all clarified on the KS page FAQ, I don't recall exact dates.

So, you'd get more content than you Can shake a stick at just 7-8 months after the KS ends, not too shabby.
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Matti
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The Waspman wrote:

Now I know this is going to sound overly defensive, but this is kinda skewed. You're showing an image of a physical resin sculpt of the phoenix from KDM to compare to a digital render of the Old Iron King. Of course the Phoenix is going to look better.

That being said, I do agree that the detailing in Dark Souls isn't great. At least the pre-release images. Personally, I think the images of Ornstein and Smough on the main page look kinda flat and uninspired.

The Images SFG released of the production model of the Titanite demon however did look awesome. And Sif could turn out to be a great mini.

I tend not to rely on digital renders for end product quality because my eyes register digital images really easily. I have backed Dark Souls, same as I've backed Kingdom Death. Another difference it Dark Souls is £80. Kingdom Death (with current exchange rates) is over £200 for the base game alone. Its a poor excuse I know, but the pricing is going to reflect the overall quality.


Actually it's skewed other way around since there are no limitations with the fidelity and details in digital rendering and sculpting whereas there are plenty of limitations with real life miniatures and how much you can have details on them after the manufacturing. In fact, it doesn't even matter in this case since the base sculpting is rushed and hasn't been done properly so it would be as bad as a miniature.

It's not about the amount of details or the complexity of the shapes but the fact that the artist has created overlapping wrinkles and folds that wouldn't form naturally and shouldn't be there in the first place. He just took a wrinkle brush in the sculpting software and painted all over the model without actually thinking how the wrinkles and folds form naturally, where they should be and what direction they should point. It's a usual amateur mistake when doing digital sculpting and actually not that many people can see the mistake as they just concentrate on the nice details and don't mind that they're in wrong place, keep repeating the same pattern or are overlapping with other details. Maybe it's nitpicking for some people but I would expect more from a professional work.

Like I said before, comparing to KD:M might be a bit unfair since the quality and price is a lot higher with KD:M but there are plenty of other kickstarted games with similar price range as Dark Souls with better quality sculpts/renders and miniatures.

It's too early to say anything how the final miniatures will look and I do hope they will keep working on the models since they still have time before the add-ons need to be finished for shipping. You're right about the Titanite Demo. I think some of the models were rushed because of the pledge manager or SFG is using multiple artists which some of them simply don't do as good quality as others.
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Craig O'Connor
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masaiko wrote:
Actually it's skewed other way around since there are no limitations with the fidelity and details in digital rendering and sculpting whereas there are plenty of limitations with real life miniatures and how much you can have details on them after the manufacturing. In fact, it doesn't even matter in this case since the base sculpting is rushed and hasn't been done properly so it would be as bad as a miniature.

It's not about the amount of details or the complexity of the shapes but the fact that the artist has created overlapping wrinkles and folds that wouldn't form naturally and shouldn't be there in the first place. He just took a wrinkle brush in the sculpting software and painted all over the model without actually thinking how the wrinkles and folds form naturally, where they should be and what direction they should point. It's a usual amateur mistake when doing digital sculpting and actually not that many people can see the mistake as they just concentrate on the nice details and don't mind that they're in wrong place, keep repeating the same pattern or are overlapping with other details. Maybe it's nitpicking for some people but I would expect more from a professional work.

Like I said before, comparing to KD:M might be a bit unfair since the quality and price is a lot higher with KD:M but there are plenty of other kickstarted games with similar price range as Dark Souls with better quality sculpts/renders and miniatures.

It's too early to say anything how the final miniatures will look and I do hope they will keep working on the models since they still have time before the add-ons need to be finished for shipping. You're right about the Titanite Demo. I think some of the models were rushed because of the pledge manager or SFG is using multiple artists which some of them simply don't do as good quality as others.


I agree on this point. I do feel that SFG are probably in a little over their heads with how successful the campaign was, and considering the problems they've had with the pledge manager and their apparent refusal to push back the release date (which has resulted in this debacle regarding the shipping) it doesn't really instil a lot of confidence.

Personally, I didn't add on any of the mega bosses because I haven't been satisfied with the renders they've given us. Old Iron King - as you point out - looks bad. The Four Kings similarly look very poor because in game they're ethereal and that doesn't work in plastic.

Still, all we can do is wait, right? And hope that the plastic figures look good. I've also backed KDM, Mythic Battles and the Edge, so I'll be getting a lot of plastic next year! And 2018. And 2019...
 
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The Waspman wrote:
Still, all we can do is wait, right? And hope that the plastic figures look good. I've also backed KDM, Mythic Battles and the Edge, so I'll be getting a lot of plastic next year! And 2018. And 2019...


Yeah.. I guess we should just wait and see what happens.

I'm on the fence about the mega boss add-ons. I'd like to get one or two just to have them as the core game doesn't have any mega bosses, I think(?).

At this point I would actually be happy if SFG announced they've decided to delay the game for 6 months to polish everything. Dark Souls is such an important game series to me and I'd hate to see them delivering a rushed and unpolished game. I also backed Kingdom Death: Monster so delaying Dark Souls wouldn't matter that much.
 
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Thanks for the lesson in what to look for, Matti - at first I was like "what's he talking about?" then I scrolled down, saw your detailed callouts and was like "oh! yeah! That's some lazy modeling!"

I do hope that the final sculpts turn out better than the renders, but as others have said, this is targeting a mass board game market and the quality will reflect that. Comparing *anything* to KDM - which existed as a line of finely-sculpted resin model kits long before it became a ridiculously high-quality (and price) boutique board game - is unfair.

I got in on the post-KS "Late Backer" level of Dark Souls just because it was a decent price for a single big bundle of stuff, and I'm interested to see how the gameplay works in that it is similar to KDM, but not KDM. I've really enjoyed KDM and am getting the 1.5 upgrade stuff, but if DS is a little less fiddly and simpler to break out and play, I'll enjoy it even if the minis are less refined. I'm not playing wearing a loupe or anything.
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masaiko wrote:

At this point I would actually be happy if SFG announced they've decided to delay the game for 6 months to polish everything. Dark Souls is such an important game series to me and I'd hate to see them delivering a rushed and unpolished game. I also backed Kingdom Death: Monster so delaying Dark Souls wouldn't matter that much.


Sadly, this isn't going to be the case is it? I would have been happy with that too, expected it even, but they're adamant about shipping the core set in March, with everything else coming in a second wave in October. Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. The core set is only the very bare bones of a game, to a degree I would say its borderline unplayable (at least with very little variation) until you throw in the stretch goals.

I mean, the core set player characters are basically three of the same, and one slightly different. Also - and this didn't hit me until the most recent update - the scope of the bosses are wrong. Vordt is a megaboss, and is on that scale, but the Dancer is just a standard boss, on a much smaller scale? While it is true in the game that Vordt is a bit of a gateway boss, I would say that the Dancer is far more significant.

Still, can't really argue about scales can we, because if the bosses (and megabosses) were all on the right scale, we could hardly call them "miniatures", right?
 
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Re: Quality of renders / minis'
For those asking why SFG don't delay to fix their crappy sculpts, the Ip is owned by From and there's likely contractual obligations. Also, they will want to cash in on retail sales while the final DLC is still popular.
 
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reitoei wrote:
Thanks for the lesson in what to look for, Matti - at first I was like "what's he talking about?" then I scrolled down, saw your detailed callouts and was like "oh! yeah! That's some lazy modeling!"


Sorry for ruining it for you then.

I think targeting the game for mass board game marked shouldn't matter as they still got a lot of money from the kickstarter (and will get from the pledge manager) and the pricing of the megabosses isn't exactly cheap. I think they might have targeted the core game for masses but the megabosses are for hobbyists and collectors. Otherwise there is not point of making them so large.


Geoff wrote:
For those asking why SFG don't delay to fix their crappy sculpts, the Ip is owned by From and there's likely contractual obligations. Also, they will want to cash in on retail sales while the final DLC is still popular.


I think the IP is actually owned by Bandai Namco but yes, there might be some pressure from BN which is kinda odd since they don't seem to rush with giving SFG their consent to publish renders and the gameplay video.
 
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The Waspman wrote:
Also - and this didn't hit me until the most recent update - the scope of the bosses are wrong. Vordt is a megaboss, and is on that scale, but the Dancer is just a standard boss, on a much smaller scale? While it is true in the game that Vordt is a bit of a gateway boss, I would say that the Dancer is far more significant.


I found this from the KS comments.


According to that, megaboss has to be over 10cm tall even if it's just the tip of the wing or sword that goes over it. Sadly the Dancer was sculpted in a crouching pose so she didn't get to be a megaboss.
 
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You know, based on stills taken from the game, the Gaping Dragon actually seems to have been built the same way as the mini: in a symmetrical fashion, which the mini actually reflects.

Makes sense, although now you have time to notice it and see that's it not very beautiful, while in the game, you cared about not dying :/

from http://darksouls.wdfiles.com/local--files/bosses/gaping-drag...
 
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