Frank Wille
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I played S26 "Last Ally, Last Victory" this week, which generated some mostly AFV-related questions:

1. TCA is not aligned with VCA. I take a DFF shot with a DRM to turn the VCA. Do I have to apply an additional DRM for aligning the TCA with the VCA (provided I want them aligned)? Or does TCA turn in parallel to VCA?
(After reading Jay Richard's ASKSL tutorial again, I think I got the extra DRM.)

2. An AFV breaks an MMC during CC (e.g. with Nahkampfwaffe). Does the Melee state persist, as long as the AFV is in the same hex? Does the MMC get a DM-counter while still in Melee? Or does it not gain DM before the AFV leaves the hex, finally negating the Melee status?

3. Enemy unit spends 1 MF. May an AFV fire MA and MG at it, or only one of these weapons, as long as the unit didn't spend another MF?

4. A leader fails its MC by more than ELR and is quality reduced. Then it breaks. Now all the other units, which have a lower morale, take a LLTC. But is their morale compared to the leader's original morale, or the quality-reduced one?

5. I rallied a crew and moved them back to their Gun. Can they immediately operate that Gun, or do they have to recover it, during the RPh, like a SW?

6. A unit is attacked in CC while having CX- or Pin-state. Are CX/Pin counters removed after CCPh, or do they persist over several Melee rounds? (I guess they are removed.)

7. The enemy AFV spends 1 MP in LOS of my AFV. Can I first use the Smoke Dispenser and after that still make a Motion Status Attempt? And may I even fire directly after the Motion Status Attempt, with changed VCA/TCA?

8. The use of a Smoke-Dispenser, a MA which retains ROF, or vehicular-MG, all of them which do not place a First-Fire counter, does not prevent a subsequent Motion Status Attempt?
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I'll take a swing at this...

phxhf wrote:
1. TCA is not aligned with VCA. I take a DFF shot with a DRM to turn the VCA. Do I have to apply an additional DRM for aligning the TCA with the VCA (provided I want them aligned)? Or does TCA turn in parallel to VCA?
(After reading Jay Richard's ASKSL tutorial again, I think I got the extra DRM.)

Correct. Changing the TCA to align with the target is all that matters for this DFF (and DRM). You do not need to align the TCA and VCA to avoid a DRM. Second part... the TCA always rotates proportionately with a VCA change unless specified otherwise during movement (MPh and MSA).

phxhf wrote:
2. An AFV breaks an MMC during CC (e.g. with Nahkampfwaffe). Does the Melee state persist, as long as the AFV is in the same hex? Does the MMC get a DM-counter while still in Melee? Or does it not gain DM before the AFV leaves the hex, finally negating the Melee status?

Interesting question. Per Full ASL, yes. Per ASLSK, yes, as there is no chance for withdrawal from CC. Second part... yes, per normal broken Infantry effect (there should be a -1 drm for broken Units in ASLSK, or there's one for Full ASL). Per my understanding, the Melee will end only when the AFV leaves the hex (Location) as this AFV is "unbroken."

phxhf wrote:
3. Enemy unit spends 1 MF. May an AFV fire MA and MG at it, or only one of these weapons, as long as the unit didn't spend another MF?

Any enemy Units in LOS and range may fire on that defending Unit for each MF spent in that hex. Questionable LOS is checked for free.

phxhf wrote:
4. A leader fails its MC by more than ELR and is quality reduced. Then it breaks. Now all the other units, which have a lower morale, take a LLTC. But is their morale compared to the leader's original morale, or the quality-reduced one?

Re: LLTC, original morale (before IFT effect).

phxhf wrote:
5. I rallied a crew and moved them back to their Gun. Can they immediately operate that Gun, or do they have to recover it, during the RPh, like a SW?

Good question. I understand SW are recovered, not Guns. Input from other readers, please.

phxhf wrote:
6. A unit is attacked in CC while having CX- or Pin-state. Are CX/Pin counters removed after CCPh, or do they persist over several Melee rounds? (I guess they are removed.)

Correct on the second state; CX counters are removed at the beginning of the MPh (as the Unit will be either dead or pinned in Melee by that point), and Pin counters are removed at the end of the CCPh. Apply the appropriate DRM for those markers till then.

phxhf wrote:
7. The enemy AFV spends 1 MP in LOS of my AFV. Can I first use the Smoke Dispenser and after that still make a Motion Status Attempt? And may I even fire directly after the Motion Status Attempt, with changed VCA/TCA?

Jeez, will you knock it off with the good questions? :-) I don't think you can make a Smoke Dispenser (defensive) action then make a Motion Status Attempt action in reaction to that spent 1 MP (two for one). Someone can correct me if I've FUBAR'd on this point. Yes regarding firing after MSA if the AFV is not prohibited by FF marker or other.

phxhf wrote:
8. The use of a Smoke-Dispenser, a MA which retains ROF, or vehicular-MG, all of them which do not place a First-Fire counter, does not prevent a subsequent Motion Status Attempt?

No (SD). Yes (MA). Maybe (MG). As long as you haven't previously fired the MG, you can FG the MG with the MA at the same target (Mandatory Fire Group). The previously fired Dispenser does not prohibit SFF from other eligible weapons.

Sounds like you're having a wiz-bang time with ASLSK#3. Keep up the questions, and the BGG community will provide the assistance.
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phxhf wrote:
I played S26 "Last Ally, Last Victory" this week, which generated some mostly AFV-related questions:


I don't know the ASLSK rules. In full ASL the answers would be:

Quote:
1. TCA is not aligned with VCA. I take a DFF shot with a DRM to turn the VCA. Do I have to apply an additional DRM for aligning the TCA with the VCA (provided I want them aligned)? Or does TCA turn in parallel to VCA?
(After reading Jay Richard's ASKSL tutorial again, I think I got the extra DRM.)


Well, it depends what weapon(s) are firing. If you're only firing a bow-mounted weapon, then the TCA won't change with respect to the VCA at all (i.e., each change in VCA changes the TCA by the same amount). If no bow-mounted weapon is firing, then the VCA need not change at all; but if you choose to change it (or if you must change it, because you are firing a bow-mounted weapon) then all VCA and TCA change DRM are cumulative.

Quote:
2. An AFV breaks an MMC during CC (e.g. with Nahkampfwaffe). Does the Melee state persist, as long as the AFV is in the same hex? Does the MMC get a DM-counter while still in Melee? Or does it not gain DM before the AFV leaves the hex, finally negating the Melee status?


Melee persists while the AFV is stopped in the same Location. Yes. N/A (but note that Melee ends as soon as the vehicle is non-stopped, not when it leaves the hex). (Generally speaking, a unit gains DM immediately when it breaks, regardless of where it is or why it broke.)

The primary distinction is that a broken unit may only exit a Melee by Withdrawing (I don't know if that's a rule in ASLSK). If it's not a Melee, then the broken unit may (indeed must) rout away normally (in the RtPh) and Withdrawal is not an option.

Quote:
3. Enemy unit spends 1 MF. May an AFV fire MA and MG at it, or only one of these weapons, as long as the unit didn't spend another MF?


For that 1 MF expenditure, every unit/weapon at your disposal may fire at that moving unit. No individual unit/weapon may fire more than once, though.

Quote:
4. A leader fails its MC by more than ELR and is quality reduced. Then it breaks. Now all the other units, which have a lower morale, take a LLTC. But is their morale compared to the leader's original morale, or the quality-reduced one?


The reduced morale.

Quote:
5. I rallied a crew and moved them back to their Gun. Can they immediately operate that Gun, or do they have to recover it, during the RPh, like a SW?


It must first be Recovered.

Quote:
6. A unit is attacked in CC while having CX- or Pin-state. Are CX/Pin counters removed after CCPh, or do they persist over several Melee rounds? (I guess they are removed.)


They are removed at the normal time for the removal of those markers. For a Pin, that means at the end of that turn's CCPh. For a CX, at the start of the affected unit's next MPh.

Quote:
7. The enemy AFV spends 1 MP in LOS of my AFV. Can I first use the Smoke Dispenser and after that still make a Motion Status Attempt? And may I even fire directly after the Motion Status Attempt, with changed VCA/TCA?


Yes. Yes.

Quote:
8. The use of a Smoke-Dispenser, a MA which retains ROF, or vehicular-MG, all of them which do not place a First-Fire counter, does not prevent a subsequent Motion Status Attempt?


No. You cannot make a sD/Motion attempt if the vehicle has fired any weapon in that Phase, regardless of ROF. (And why do you believe that firing a vehicular MG does not place a First Fire counter? It certainly does! Placing a FF counter for a vehicular weapon that has fired does not preclude other weapons from firing; you need to remember, or make a note, of which weapons have fired and which have not.)
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A number of your answers were incorrect, see my post for details. I am puzzled in particular by this response:

Largo68 wrote:
Questionable LOS is checked for free.


There are several circumstances where you can claim "free" LOS checks, but the act of firing at an enemy unit is not one of them. If it's questionable and you want to fire, then the only way you'll know for sure is by firing (and then checking).
 
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BruceP wrote:
phxhf wrote:
I played S26 "Last Ally, Last Victory" this week, which generated some mostly AFV-related questions:

I don't know the ASLSK rules. In full ASL the answers would be:

Caveat emptor, but let's continue...

BruceP wrote:
phxhf wrote:
1. TCA is not aligned with VCA. I take a DFF shot with a DRM to turn the VCA. Do I have to apply an additional DRM for aligning the TCA with the VCA (provided I want them aligned)? Or does TCA turn in parallel to VCA?
(After reading Jay Richard's ASKSL tutorial again, I think I got the extra DRM.)

Well, it depends what weapon(s) are firing. If you're only firing a bow-mounted weapon, then the TCA won't change with respect to the VCA at all (i.e., each change in VCA changes the TCA by the same amount). If no bow-mounted weapon is firing, then the VCA need not change at all; but if you choose to change it (or if you must change it, because you are firing a bow-mounted weapon) then all VCA and TCA change DRM are cumulative.

More detail regarding the same info I already presented minus hull-mounted weapons. Thanks, Bruce.

BruceP wrote:
phxhf wrote:
2. An AFV breaks an MMC during CC (e.g. with Nahkampfwaffe). Does the Melee state persist, as long as the AFV is in the same hex? Does the MMC get a DM-counter while still in Melee? Or does it not gain DM before the AFV leaves the hex, finally negating the Melee status?

Melee persists while the AFV is stopped in the same Location. Yes. N/A (but note that Melee ends as soon as the vehicle is non-stopped, not when it leaves the hex). (Generally speaking, a unit gains DM immediately when it breaks, regardless of where it is or why it broke.)
The primary distinction is that a broken unit may only exit a Melee by Withdrawing (I don't know if that's a rule in ASLSK). If it's not a Melee, then the broken unit may (indeed must) rout away normally (in the RtPh) and Withdrawal is not an option.

Withdrawal deprecated via ASLSK as already noted. Location also. Stopped vs. Motion appreciated. Thanks, Bruce.

BruceP wrote:
phxhf wrote:
3. Enemy unit spends 1 MF. May an AFV fire MA and MG at it, or only one of these weapons, as long as the unit didn't spend another MF?

For that 1 MF expenditure, every unit/weapon at your disposal may fire at that moving unit. No individual unit/weapon may fire more than once, though.

Already stated. See reply above.

BruceP wrote:
phxhf wrote:
4. A leader fails its MC by more than ELR and is quality reduced. Then it breaks. Now all the other units, which have a lower morale, take a LLTC. But is their morale compared to the leader's original morale, or the quality-reduced one?

The reduced morale.

2.0 Definitions ASLSK (DaE)
"LLTC: Leader Loss Task Check; caused by the breaking of a leader with higher morale than the unit(s) he is stacked with (3.2.3)."

3.2.3 Effects ASLSK (DaE)
"If a leader breaks, all Good Order units with a lower current morale level stacked with him and not in CC must take a PTC after resolving the initial attack with any negative leadership DRM added to the DR rather than subtracted from it. This is a Leader Loss Task Check (LLTC)."

This I disagree with this comment as the ASLSK rules appear silent on timing. When would an ELR and break occur independently? Wouldn't an ELR necessitate a break at the same instant? In other words, how can a Unit ELR and not break? Scanning ASLSK rules seems to convey all instances lead to original morale for LLTC.

BruceP wrote:
phxhf wrote:
5. I rallied a crew and moved them back to their Gun. Can they immediately operate that Gun, or do they have to recover it, during the RPh, like a SW?

It must first be Recovered.

1.2.6 Guns (ASLSK DaE)
"Any ordnance-capable non-vehicular weapon depicted on a 5⁄8” counter is termed a Gun (6.0). A Gun must be manned by a crew counter to fire without the +2 Non-Qualified Use penalty. Guns are possessed, transferred, recovered and destroyed as if a SW (4.0)."

Seems odd you'd have to recover an huge Gun standing right there in front of the Crew, but that's the rule. Thanks, Bruce.

BruceP wrote:
phxhf wrote:
6. A unit is attacked in CC while having CX- or Pin-state. Are CX/Pin counters removed after CCPh, or do they persist over several Melee rounds? (I guess they are removed.)

They are removed at the normal time for the removal of those markers. For a Pin, that means at the end of that turn's CCPh. For a CX, at the start of the affected unit's next MPh.

Again, already stated. See above.

BruceP wrote:
phxhf wrote:
7. The enemy AFV spends 1 MP in LOS of my AFV. Can I first use the Smoke Dispenser and after that still make a Motion Status Attempt? And may I even fire directly after the Motion Status Attempt, with changed VCA/TCA?

Yes. Yes.

2.0 Definitions ASLSK (DaE)
"Motion Status: A vehicle that has started since the last time it stopped."
"Motion Status Attempt: An attempt by a vehicle during the opposing player’s MPh to gain Motion status or change VCA (3.3.2.1)."

3.3.2.1 Motion Status Attempt ASLSK (DaE)
"Motion Status attempt may be made during the MPh of an enemy ground unit by any defending mobile vehicle. The AFV must make a dr less than or equal to the number of MF/MP expended by the enemy unit while in the LOS of the AFV making the Motion Status attempt. The enemy unit must not have been in the LOS of the AFV making the attempt at the beginning of that Player Turn. An AFV may only make a Motion Status attempt once per enemy MPh, and may not make the attempt at all if marked with a First/Final/Intensive Fire counter. There is no penalty for failing the attempt, but, if successful, place a Motion counter on the AFV, and the AFV may freely change its VCA/TCA except that, if required to by terrain restrictions, it must first pass a Bog Check (7.6). Mechanical Reliability still applies, and, if the vehicle stalls, the attempt has failed. A vehicle already in Motion may also attempt to change VCA/TCA."

This is a tricky one. I still don't agree with the 2 actions vs the 1 MP expenditure Bruce is advocating regarding part 1, although I agree with the second part. I'm good with a coin flip on the ruling (1-3 yea; 4-6 nay).

BruceP wrote:
phxhf wrote:
8. The use of a Smoke-Dispenser, a MA which retains ROF, or vehicular-MG, all of them which do not place a First-Fire counter, does not prevent a subsequent Motion Status Attempt?

No. You cannot make a sD/Motion attempt if the vehicle has fired any weapon in that Phase, regardless of ROF. (And why do you believe that firing a vehicular MG does not place a First Fire counter? It certainly does! Placing a FF counter for a vehicular weapon that has fired does not preclude other weapons from firing; you need to remember, or make a note, of which weapons have fired and which have not.)

Again, another tricky one. By my understanding, at the instant before the MSA, there are no counters on the Vehicle -- nothing for the inherent sD being fired, nothing for the ROF MA, and nothing for the Vehicular MG (as they haven't been fired yet). Why wouldn't the MSA be permissible? Again, coin-flip ruling?

[...]

Bruce is not easily challenged in ASL rulings. I know this from following his posts on BGG and CSW. My intent is not to "out gun" Bruce on Full ASL/ASLSK rulings -- I'm only interested in helping folks enjoy 85% of the gaming experience that is ASL. GAME ON, EVERYONE!
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BruceP wrote:
A number of your answers were incorrect, see my post for details. I am puzzled in particular by this response:
Largo68 wrote:
Questionable LOS is checked for free.

There are several circumstances where you can claim "free" LOS checks, but the act of firing at an enemy unit is not one of them. If it's questionable and you want to fire, then the only way you'll know for sure is by firing (and then checking).

Correct, LOS, in Full ASL and ASLSK, can be actively challenged only after an attack is declared. Otherwise, there appears to be only one "free" LOS check in ASLSK...

6.10 Target Acquisition (ASLSK DaE)
... "If an Acquired Target appears to leave the LOS of the Gun/MA, a free LOS check may be made. If the LOS check reveals that there is no LOS to that hex, the 1⁄2” Acquired Target counter is returned to the last hex to which the Gun/MA had LOS."

I don't think the check is "questionable"; only reasonable. ASLSK is a bit more "relaxed" than what you might be accustomed to, Bruce -- as least from my gaming group's perspective.

GAME ON!
 
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Thank you very much for your extensive comments!

BruceP wrote:
Melee persists while the AFV is stopped in the same Location. Yes. N/A (but note that Melee ends as soon as the vehicle is non-stopped, not when it leaves the hex).

So, disregarding whether the Infantry is broken or not, there will be no Melee anymore, when the AFV is non-stopped? But does this mean both, the AFV and the Infantry, may shoot at targets outside of their hex after CCPh?

Will there even be a CC, when the AFV is non-stopped? I'm a bit confused now...

Largo68 wrote:
BruceP wrote:
The reduced morale.

2.0 Definitions ASLSK (DaE)
"LLTC: Leader Loss Task Check; caused by the breaking of a leader with higher morale than the unit(s) he is stacked with (3.2.3)."

3.2.3 Effects ASLSK (DaE)
"If a leader breaks, all Good Order units with a lower current morale level stacked with him and not in CC must take a PTC after resolving the initial attack with any negative leadership DRM added to the DR rather than subtracted from it. This is a Leader Loss Task Check (LLTC)."

This I disagree with this comment as the ASLSK rules appear silent on timing. When would an ELR and break occur independently? Wouldn't an ELR necessitate a break at the same instant? In other words, how can a Unit ELR and not break? Scanning ASLSK rules seems to convey all instances lead to original morale for LLTC.

This still seems undefined to me. The 3.2.3 rule mentions a "current" morale. But does it refer to the leader or the units stacked with him? Hmm. As you both agree on the original morale, I would play it like that now...

Largo68 wrote:

1.2.6 Guns (ASLSK DaE)
"Any ordnance-capable non-vehicular weapon depicted on a 5⁄8” counter is termed a Gun (6.0). A Gun must be manned by a crew counter to fire without the +2 Non-Qualified Use penalty. Guns are possessed, transferred, recovered and destroyed as if a SW (4.0)."

Right. I didn't notice 1.2.6 while I was reading 3.1 b) in the ASLSK3 Rule Book, which only mentions SW. This error was fixed by "SW/Gun" in the DaE Rule Book.

(Yes, I should better use the DaE Rule Book during play, but the ASLSK3 one has lots of my corrections and annotations, and the DaE Rule Book can stay in good shape for some more time. )

phxhf wrote:
7. The enemy AFV spends 1 MP in LOS of my AFV. Can I first use the Smoke Dispenser and after that still make a Motion Status Attempt? And may I even fire directly after the Motion Status Attempt, with changed VCA/TCA?

This one still seems uncertain, and I share Paul's feeling that sD and MSA as reaction on a single MP seems a bit too much. But when Bruce is sure that it works in full ASL, I would play it like that in ASLSK too, in the absence of a rule there.

Any other opinions?

BruceP wrote:
No. You cannot make a sD/Motion attempt if the vehicle has fired any weapon in that Phase, regardless of ROF.

Hmm, that came into my mind because 3.3.2.1 (see Paul's posting) says: "and may not make the attempt at all if marked with a First/Final/Intensive Fire counter."
I understand that the use of a vehicular MG theoretically places a FF counter as well, although I'm only placing it for the MA and try to remember the MG (is there an official rule how to do that?).

But a MA, which retained ROF, definitely doesn't place a FF counter. And it still prevents a MSA? Then this rule should be corrected like: "and may not make the attempt at all if fired".
For sD it seems clear, as 7.5 says: "has not yet fired any weapon".

So the conclusion is: MSA is allowed after sD, but not after the use of any weapon?

Largo68 wrote:
Sounds like you're having a wiz-bang time with ASLSK#3.

My tanks didn't want to give up so easily, so they tried all possible options.
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phxhf wrote:
So, disregarding whether the Infantry is broken or not, there will be no Melee anymore, when the AFV is non-stopped? But does this mean both, the AFV and the Infantry, may shoot at targets outside of their hex after CCPh?


It's not the Melee status that stops you from shooting outside of your hex, it's the enemy unit that's in your Location that stops you from shooting out (in full ASL that's rule A7.212 TARGET SELECTION LIMITS). And again, I don't know if this is a rule in ASLSK, but in full ASL, a vehicle can never be in Melee status; it's always free to fire directly at the same-Location infantry in PFPh/DFPh, or just start up and move away in the MPh.

Quote:
Will there even be a CC, when the AFV is non-stopped? I'm a bit confused now...


I don't know what the ASLSK rules say (sorry, it's a constant refrain). In full ASL, yes CC can still occur (it's more difficult to get a result vs. a Motion vehicle, and the vehicle in turn has a reduced attack value).

Quote:
This still seems undefined to me. The 3.2.3 rule mentions a "current" morale. But does it refer to the leader or the units stacked with him? Hmm. As you both agree on the original morale, I would play it like that now...


But we don't agree. In full ASL, there is no question that it is based on the current morale, i.e., the value after the ELR takes place. ("Current" does not mean "original".) Since the ASLSK rule also uses the term "current", I believe the same applies there also.

Quote:
Hmm, that came into my mind because 3.3.2.1 (see Paul's posting) says: "and may not make the attempt at all if marked with a First/Final/Intensive Fire counter." I understand that the use of a vehicular MG theoretically places a FF counter as well, although I'm only placing it for the MA and try to remember the MG (is there an official rule how to do that?).

But a MA, which retained ROF, definitely doesn't place a FF counter. And it still prevents a MSA? Then this rule should be corrected like: "and may not make the attempt at all if fired". For sD it seems clear, as 7.5 says: "has not yet fired any weapon".


Well, to be fair, the ASL rules use (essentially) the same wording for Motion attempts and sD usage. So, you are correct that if a vehicle has fired only its MA and maintained ROF, it may later make a Motion attempt in that same MPh. Not at all unusually, something many people (including myself) have played incorrectly -- no-one, no matter their experience, knows all the ASL rules, all the time! (I'll have to try and remember that one and surprise my friends in a future game ....) There's no question, though, that a Motion attempt and a sD attempt may be made in response to the same MF/MP expenditure -- D2.401: "... There is no penalty (including "?" loss) for failing a Motion attempt dr other than the inability to gain Motion status during that Player Turn. ..." and D13.2, which describes the conditions required before making an sD attempt. Neither rule cancels the other, therefore, both are permitted (and, indeed, "drop smoke and attempt to flee" is one of the many standard ASL AFV tactics).

As for the placement of Fire counters for non-MA weapons, the only ASL rules that discuss it at all that I could find are A3.3: "MOVEMENT PHASE (MPh): ... The DEFENDER places a First Fire counter on any of his units which fire unless it retains a Multiple ROF (9.2)." and also A8.1 "FIRST FIRE: ... The DEFENDER must place "First Fire" counters above all units/weapons that have fired and exhausted their ROF ...". I'd be a little surprised if that wording doesn't exist in ASLSK as well, in some form? And no, there's no rule that discusses the mechanics of the placement of fire counters for AFVs. Players tend to use "house conventions" if memory is insufficient, e.g., place the fire counter in front or to the side if the MGs have fired but the MA has not, etc. At least one third-party company produced a bunch of optional fire counters to cover various vehicular weapon options ("MA fired", "BMG fired", "BMG+CMG fired", etc.) and VASL uses a neat little "multiple choice" counter for the same purpose.
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BruceP wrote:
It's not the Melee status that stops you from shooting outside of your hex, it's the enemy unit that's in your Location that stops you from shooting out

Ok. I have to remember that. Wasn't completely clear.

BruceP wrote:
I don't know if this is a rule in ASLSK, but in full ASL, a vehicle can never be in Melee status;

Not even when stopped or immobilized?

BruceP wrote:
it's always free to fire directly at the same-Location infantry in PFPh/DFPh, or just start up and move away in the MPh.

Yes, the ASLSK rules say that an AFV is never held in Melee. But I wasn't aware of the possibility to attack its own location in PFPh/DFPh. Have to check that.

BruceP wrote:
But we don't agree.

Indeed. Sorry.

BruceP wrote:
In full ASL, there is no question that it is based on the current morale, i.e., the value after the ELR takes place. ("Current" does not mean "original".) Since the ASLSK rule also uses the term "current", I believe the same applies there also.

You are right. So I will apply the current, probably reduced, leader-morale.

BruceP wrote:
Well, to be fair, the ASL rules use (essentially) the same wording for Motion attempts and sD usage. So, you are correct that if a vehicle has fired only its MA and maintained ROF, it may later make a Motion attempt in that same MPh.

Ok. Although you would rarely take the risk to fire your MA first, in the hope to keep ROF, when you want to do a Motion Status Attempt.


BruceP wrote:
Neither rule cancels the other, therefore, both are permitted (and, indeed, "drop smoke and attempt to flee" is one of the many standard ASL AFV tactics).

Great!
 
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phxhf wrote:
Not even when stopped or immobilized?


Never ever.

Quote:
Ok. Although you would rarely take the risk to fire your MA first, in the hope to keep ROF, when you want to do a Motion Status Attempt.


Indeed.

 
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Largo68 wrote:
Bruce is not easily challenged in ASL rulings. I know this from following his posts on BGG and CSW. My intent is not to "out gun" Bruce on Full ASL/ASLSK rulings -- I'm only interested in helping folks enjoy 85% of the gaming experience that is ASL. GAME ON, EVERYONE!


I meant to respond to this yesterday ... thanks for the rep , but you should always "challenge" whenever you are uncertain -- it's an excellent way to learn, and the veteran may end up being the person who learns (as indeed this thread has already demonstrated, in the case of Motion attempts). There are so many myriad options and curious interactions between rules in ASL that it is really impossible for any single individual to know all the rules all the time -- and I know from personal experience that it is very easy to make assumptions that are simply wrong. I always have my rulebook handy when playing because I know that at some point I will feel the need to look something up, even if it's just to confirm something that I should already know.

This is one of the reasons why I, personally, am incapable of playing ASLSK. I don't know the ASLSK rules, and any claim that ASLSK is just ASL with bits missing is simply wrong -- there are many options and interactions that don't exist in ASLSK, which in turn will change the way you play the game. I can't play ASLSK because I don't know what I am not allowed to do, and I don't know where to look to find out if I'm allowed to do it or not!

(A common problem that afflicted SL veterans when they first made the switch to ASL was not just learning the new ASL rules, but forgetting the old SL rules that no longer applied! It took me about 10 years to shake all of them off.)
 
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