$30.00
Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Arkham Horror: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Shrivelling - timing of horror (spoiler)? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Markococo
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
So, Skids is already defeated and Agnes is engaged in a fight in the parlour with the Ghoul Priest with Lita Chandler by her side.
The Ghoul Priest has 7 damage and Agnes has 7 horror.

Agnes casts her last Shrivelling spell with the Rosary round her neck and one will icon committed to the skill test. If successful she will do 3 damage and destroy the Ghoul Priest.

She pulls out a skull resulting in a -2 to the test but it's still a success.

However, Shrivelling says if you reveal a skull token during this attack, take 1 horror.

I assume I take it as soon as the token is revealed?

Is this right? If so then she too is defeated and the ending is very different to if the Ghoul Priest is killed.

Personally I like the idea of the Ghoul Priest being killed and Agnes taking the trauma anyway - makes for a good story...

But I'm thinking that she's probably toast before the damage is applied.

Can anyone give me the proper order that all of the damage and horror should be resolved?



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Burns
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
For shrivelling to do 3 damage, I guess she's using Lita Chantler as an ally - why not assign her the horror? Or the rosary? It isn't "direct" horror, which has to go to you. Or have I got something wrong there?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gordon Au
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
I'm pretty sure that if you look at the Skill Test Timing section of the Rules Reference (Page 26) that the damage Agnes suffers is part of Step 4, Resolve chaos symbol effect(s), which occurs before evaluating the skill test results. So I'd say, unfortunately, if you can't deflect the damage or assign it to someone else, you're defeated before you get a chance to kill the Ghoul Priest.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Markococo
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Lol I was using Lita Chandler as an ally and didn't even consider giving the horror to anyone else or the rosary.

Too caught up in the excitement is my excuse blush

Thanks for the replies, guys.

One rosary ro the rescue!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremie Miller
msg tools
There was a big discussion about this on the discord channel yesterday, here is the result:

In Step 4 you resolve chaos symbol effects that are on scenario cards. You do not apply any chaos symbol effects on player cards

Page 26 ST.4: "Each of the following symbols indicates that an ability on the scenario refernce card must initiate."

In Step 7 You apply skill test results, which includes the results of the chaos tokens.

Page 27 ST.7 "Resolve the appropriate consequences (based on the success or failure established during ST.6) at this time.

The horror is applied because of the result of the skill test determined in ST.6 but doesn't happen till ST.7

So, in this case the chaos token:
1. activates any scenario card consequences (St.4)
2. The shriveling attack hits (ST.6)
3. You apply the damage of 2 from the skill test.
4. You apply the horror.

So, Ghoul priest dies, then Agnes goes insane.

I believe this has been confirmed by the developer. Someone who emails the developer a lot said that this order was correct, but I don't have actual proof from the developer.

Edit: or you apply the horror to an asset and Agnes is fine.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dee
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
mb
That's interesting, I'm working through it myself.

One clarification though, and I think it's important, you say "In Step 4 you resolve chaos symbol effects that are on scenario cards. You do not apply any chaos symbol effects on player cards." That needs to be worded carefully. 'scenario cards' refers to all the cards in the game under the game's control (location, encounter, agenda, act, initial Lita etc.). Specifically, stage 4 is about looking at the single reference card for your scenario and chosen difficulty -- it's the part of the test where you determine "ok, what does cultist icon translate to right now".


I'm looking at the Rules Ref and I guess I'm interested to see the dev's response on this. Maybe I'm missing something but:

Quote:
Stage 7
Apply skill test results
The card ability or game rule that initiated a skill test usually
indicates the consequences of success and/or failure for that
test
. (Additionally, some other card abilities may contribute
additional consequences, or modify existing consequences, at
this time.) Resolve the appropriate consequences (based on the
success or failure established during step ST.6) at this time.
If there are multiple results to be applied during this
step, the investigator performing the test applies
those results in the order of his or her choice.

RR, p27

This stage seems to specifically and only refer to applying consequences of a success or fail, which is a binary good/bad state that you determine in Stage 6 (Stage 6, Determine success/failure of a skill test).

Surely we aren't looking at any consequences of the actual success/fail state of the skill check. Shrivelling doesn't care if you pass or fail. We're only concerned with the consequences of the token symbol that was pulled.


Shrivelling's text is a little unhelpful as it doesn't use 'when..' or 'after..', both being well-defined timing terms. The card ability just goes with an (as I understand) undefined 'if...'.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
GFWD wrote:
So, in this case the chaos token:
1. activates any scenario card consequences (St.4)
2. The shriveling attack hits (ST.6)
3. You apply the damage of 2 from the skill test.
4. You apply the horror.

So, Ghoul priest dies, then Agnes goes insane.

I believe this has been confirmed by the developer. Someone who emails the developer a lot said that this order was correct, but I don't have actual proof from the developer.

Edit: or you apply the horror to an asset and Agnes is fine.

Who emailed the developer?

Why would the damage to Ghoul Priest and the horror to Agnes apply sequentially? They're both parts of the resolution of the same effect, they should apply simultaneously. Both the Ghoul Priest and Agnes would be defeated at the same time, and the game would end before the Objective triggers (unless you have other investigators in play).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dee
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
mb
mplain wrote:
Why would the damage to Ghoul Priest and the horror to Agnes apply sequentially? They're both parts of the resolution of the same effect, they should apply simultaneously. Both the Ghoul Priest and Agnes would be defeated at the same time, and the game would end before the Objective triggers (unless you have other investigators in play).


If (if!) we consider Stage 7 to be the correct moment at which we apply the symbol-conditional damage from Shrivelling (it is a consequence of a pass/fail?), then Stage 7 does specify that multiple effects of tha consequence may be applied in the order of player choosing.


I''m still not feeling confident about an interpretation of this one though.

If Shrivelling had "when you draw a [whatever] token..." or "after you draw a..." etc, that's great. We know the timing there. If it Shrivelling had "Whether you pass or fail, if you drew a...", that would also be fine (-ish..?), since then the card is at least referencing the consequence that is determined in Stage 6 and applied in Stage 7.

Plus, note how baseball bat is a similar card but it has the extra "after the attack resolves" helpfully included.

As it stands, I can't shake the feeling that the Shrivelling ability text, "If a [Skull], [Cultist], [Tablet], [Elder Thing], or [Auto-fail] symbol is revealed during this attack, take 1 horror." doesn't fall under the purview of Stage 7, as defined in the rulebook. Stage 7 is solely about applying "pass" or "fail".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
Good points. So when do you think that effect applies then?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dee
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
mb
Until I see a designer's own interpretation of when to apply Shrivelling's symbol-draw consequence*, I see it as a stage (is it stage, or step?), um.. step 4 thing, no, wait, a step 3 thing.

Quote:
ST.3 Reveal chaos token.
Te investigator performing the skill test reveals one
chaos token at random from the chaos bag

Quote:
If a [Skull], [Cultist], [Tablet], [Elder Thing], or [Auto-fail] symbol is revealed during this attack, take 1 horror.


I agree with Zolzar's verdict, up top, in that Agnes takes the horror prior to applying to the consequences of her skill check.

*edit: or, obviously, some other applicable portion of the Rules Reference / LTP
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
Okay, I've emailed the question to Matt.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dee
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
mb
I suppose the skill test timing chart can be interpreted in brief form as

St.1 - Is this a willpower, intellect, combat, or agility test?

St.2 - Modify the relevant statistic to determine a value that you take to the test.

St.3 - Reveal your token.

St.4 - Look at reference card (if token is a symbol).

St.5 - Do the math and arrive at a number.

St.6 - Determine one: success or fail.

St.7 - Let success/fail do its business, in the order of your choosing

St.8 - Tidy everything up and don't refer back to this skill test with any abilities.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
If you look at it that way, then the "take horror" effect of Shrivelling doesn't belong here at all. In this case, it would resolve after the skill test, I guess.

The other two possibilities is that it could resolve during Step 3/4, or during Step 7 (as a skill test result, albeit not based on success or failure).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
Matt Newman answered my email:
Quote:
Shriveling says “ If a [skull], [cultist], [tablet], [elder_thing] or [auto-fail] symbol is revealed during this attack, take 1 horror.” This creates a delayed effect that will trigger as soon as one of those symbols is revealed during the attack. If one of those symbols is revealed, you should immediately take 1 horror, then continue resolving the attack. That means that it will technically trigger during ST. 3 of the skill test, “Reveal Chaos Token.”

That clause on Shriveling is not modifying the effect of those tokens, nor is it part of the result of the skill test itself; it’s just a separate effect based solely on whether or not you revealed one of those symbols.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dee
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
mb
Jättebra.

Thank you Matt and thank you mplain!

edit: nice also to have an applicable example of the Delayed Effect entry,

Quote:
Delayed Effects
Some abilities create delayed effects. Such abilities specify a
future timing point, or indicate a future condition that may
arise, and dictate an effect that will happen at that time.
* Each delayed effect initiates automatically and
immediately (as a forced ability) if its future
timing point or future condition occurs.
* A delayed effect affects all specifed entities
that are in the specifed game area and eligible
at the time the delayed effect resolves.

RR, p8
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Markococo
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks everyone for all the replies and extra effort to look at this situation in more detail.

As was pointed out earlier on in the thread, I was simply able to add the horror to the rosary and it became a moot point regarding the outcome of the scenario for my particular playthrough. That Ghoul Priest was a goner and my rosary was a thing of comfort.

However, I am glad that the question engendered some constructive debate and led to a precise answer for those times when this situation occurs.

So time for a shout out to the AH:LCG community on here. What a great bunch and thanks for going the extra mile.

And remember, don't go out alone and don't leave the house without your rosary!

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
And a quick follow-up:

mplain wrote:
Hi Matt!

A follow-up:

What happens if, in the middle of a skill test, the 'target', the card that defines the difficulty of that test, leaves play?

e.g. Agnes reveals a special token for Shrivelling, takes horror, and lethally damages the enemy that she's fighting? Or she uses Forbidden Knowledge to do the same during an Action Window? Or, heck, what if I investigate the Study, and mid-test I advance the Act as a fast action, causing the Study to leave play?

- Does the skill test fizzle immediately?
- Or do I go on with the test, reveal and resolve the chaos token, then in Step 6 i treat the test difficulty as 0, since the card that defines it has left play?
- Or does the test difficulty get locked at the start of the test, even though the rules don't clearly state so?

Thanks!

Matt Newman wrote:
Hello again,

In that case, the skill test should immediately end without resolution. If you’re attacking an enemy and the enemy leaves play before the skill test is completed, the process is aborted; return any revealed chaos tokens to the bag and the skill test ends without resolution (it is neither successful nor unsuccessful).

Matthew Newman


If the card that defines the difficulty of the skill test leaves play during that still test, immediately abort the test without further resolution.

Follow-up #2: What if the card doesn't leave play, but you move away from it mid-test via Elusive or Shortcut? Answer pending...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
mplain wrote:
And what if the investigator plays Shortcut mid-test and moves to a different location? Would any skill tests fizzle without further resolution?

I guess an engaged enemy would move with you, so a Fight or Evade test should proceed? But what if I'm attacking an enemy that I'm not engaged witg? What if I'm investigating? Resolving a treachery? Using Medical texts? Would any of these tests be aborted, and how to tell which ones?

Matt Newman wrote:
Moving to a different location wouldn’t cause the skill test to immediately cease, and neither would moving the enemy you’re attacking/evading. You should only abort the test if the target of the test no longer exists.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.