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Subject: Looking for a Heavier Euro rss

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Ian Kissell
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I'm on a quest to find a few of my "grail games," and by that I mean games that meet certain criteria but I haven't found a good fit for yet.

I'm still looking for my heavy Euro of choice. I like the idea of heavy euros, but I prefer games that have complexity due to trying to determine what the best choice is, and not ones that have complexity due to a lot of rule exceptions for different situations. I don't mind games with a fair number of rules, but am not enthused by lots of little rules. I'm also not a huge fan of when designers throw the kitchen sink of mechanics at a game.

Here are a few commonly recommended Heavy Euros that I am not a fan of, just to save you the time:
The Gallerist (Or Kanbahn for that matter)
Terra Mystica
Mombasa
Trickerion: Legends of Illusion
Caverna
Food Chain Magnate
Mage Knight
Through the Ages

Right now, I'm leaning towards Le Havre as my heavy Euro of choice, although I don't love that there seems to be only a few main strategies to employ. I'd love a game where you are either racing to a goal or trying to make money instead of points, as I don't love games where you get points for every action.

I also like Terraforming Mars, but the components drive me crazy. Feel free to ask why I don't like any of the ones above, but I am trying to keep this short.
 
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'Bernard Wingrave'
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Antike II (for 3-6 players) or Antike Duellum (for 2 players) may be worth checking out.
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Will
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Antiquity
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Patiently waiting for the zombie apocalypse...
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Check out Dominant Species
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Richard Pomeroy
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You sound like you might enjoy something more old school:
Tigris & Euphrates
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Brett McLay
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KissellMissile wrote:
I'd love a game where you are either racing to a goal or trying to make money instead of points, as I don't love games where you get points for every action.


You did not specify your player count. The "not-for-me-list" accommodates 3-4 players, so let's assume that number.

Anyway, no sandbox for you. ~ I heartily agree with you there. Also, you seem to like a set choice of probabilities -- without layers of engine-building rules?


I'm not sure you're going to crack a complexity of 3.50 / 5 ... but I will suggest Power Grid ... (3.29) -- there's your race at the end.

Troyes is reprinting at 3.46 rating. This features those modest probabilities, far less than those of Madeira.

Have you considered Yunnan? It rates 3.22. Not too fiddly and has a recovery mechanism.

Otherwise I'd turn you on to hybrid wargames -- the COIN series -- starting with Cuba Libre.
It rates 3.45 ... and, yes, the rules are specific. But a bunch of videos explain the strategy, faction by faction. Each has goals to reach thresholds.
Good luck!
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Sarah
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+1 for yunnan

Also At the Gates of Loyang
 
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Ian Kissell
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Thanks for the suggestions. Here are a few comments.

I wouldn't mind playing Antiquity, but I know I would never get to play it. I like Roads and Boats and Indonesia okay, but Antiquity looks SO fiddly with the million chits. I'll get to it some con.

Dominant Species is not bad, but I don't love worker placement, and calculating dominance gets wearisome. I found it fun for the first three hours.

I abhor Tigris and Euphrates. It is too abstract, and I don't like how the conflicts work.

I have played more games of Power Grid then I can count (a friend of mine loves it). I love the resource market, but am so-so on standard auctions. Troyes is okay, I think it is a bit too bland.

I want to play the COIN series, but I've been moving more towards hybrid conflict for a while, and I'm looking for my one true heavy Euro that I enjoy (there are plenty of medium weight ones like El Grande and Nippon I enjoy).



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Ian Kissell
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bgmclay wrote:
KissellMissile wrote:
I'd love a game where you are either racing to a goal or trying to make money instead of points, as I don't love games where you get points for every action.


You did not specify your player count. The "not-for-me-list" accommodates 3-4 players, so let's assume that number.

Anyway, no sandbox for you. ~ I heartily agree with you there. Also, you seem to like a set choice of probabilities -- without layers of engine-building rules?



Not super picky on player count, but 2-3 is my most common player count.

I like games where you can't do the same strategy every game. I prefer where you have to adapt to the unique game situation. Terra Mystica goes too far the other direction, where I feel that the round bonuses and my race put me on rails for how I have to play. Food Chain Magnate does a little better job, but I hate how advertising works.
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Michal B
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give a try to
Kraftwagen
Colonia
Age of Empires III: The Age of Discovery
Full of the next-best-move decissions & clear rules
 
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Jake Blomquist
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KissellMissile wrote:
Here are a few commonly recommended Heavy Euros that I am not a fan of, just to save you the time:
Caverna

KissellMissile wrote:
Right now, I'm leaning towards Le Havre as my heavy Euro of choice

KissellMissile wrote:
there are plenty of medium weight ones like El Grande and Nippon I enjoy


So, I've become confused about what you're asking for. When Le Havre and Caverna ended up on your heavy games list, I figured that you just had a bit broader an idea of heavy than me, and that's fine, plenty of people use these words slightly differently on the site.

But then you said Nippon is medium? In my mind Nippon and Caverna are about the same weight, and if one is the heavier of the two it's probably Nippon.

But I'll just ignore that and take a shot. Arkwright is an excellent game (and definitely heavy). Your goal is money rather than points and there's a lot of brinkmanship in the pricing so you're always reacting to what everyone else is doing. I don't know what
KissellMissile wrote:
I don't mind games with a fair number of rules, but am not enthused by lots of little rules.
means, but I think the rules are pretty reasonable. And just so you know, you really need to be playing the full waterframe version, the introductory version of the game isn't nearly as good.

But also, maybe heavy euros as a genre just aren't for you. That's fine, you don't need to like at least one game of every 'type' for any arbitrary classification of games into types. Just play what you like. I basically only like one or two kinds of games, and this makes buying new games so much easier. And frankly it sounds like you don't even really want a heavy euro, so you shouldn't feel the need to find one that you like.

Oh and incidentally

KissellMissile wrote:
Terra Mystica goes too far the other direction, where I feel that the round bonuses and my race put me on rails for how I have to play.


I'd advise you to stay away from Marco Polo, it's much worse in this regard. I really like Terra Mystica as I see enough opportunity for interesting tactical plays while executing your strategy and to me Marco Polo felt like it was on rails. Though it's also quite a bit lighter so not really relevant to this thread, just figured I'd warn you.
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Ian Kissell
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In response to Jake:

I would not consider myself a true heavy gamer. I probably would like those games if I had more time and a consistent group, but I don't, so when I say "heavier," I'm talking about the 3.5-4.0 range (for whatever that's worth). Not true "heavy" games, but heavier for the Euro end of the hobby, as most true heavy games are economic games, 18xx, or wargames. So basically, I like the puzzle that heavy Euros can present, but would would love to find one without a million little rules to remember (Vital Lacerda's games). The reason I don't like the games in the OP is not that they are "too heavy."

I don't consider Caverna that heavy, but I listed it just to save myself the inevitable recommendation. I don't like almost any of Uwe's games, which the exception of Le Havre, because they feel too much like "turn this into this into that into points," and tend to be too wide open.

Nippon doesn't really feel that complex to me, so I would put it somewhere above medium but not heavy. Again, these terms of very relative, so I didn't bother defining them precisely, because I was interested in any recommendations.

Finally, I happen to love (Voyages of) Marco Polo, because I presents a unique setup each game, and I have to decide which strategy I think will work best for that setup.

 
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Jake Blomquist
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KissellMissile wrote:
I would not consider myself a true heavy gamer. I probably would like those games if I had more time and a consistent group, but I don't, so when I say "heavier," I'm talking about the 3.5-4.0 range (for whatever that's worth). Not true "heavy" games, but heavier for the Euro end of the hobby, as most true heavy games are economic games, 18xx, or wargames. So basically, I like the puzzle that heavy Euros can present, but would would love to find one without a million little rules to remember (Vital Lacerda's games). The reason I don't like the games in the OP is not that they are "too heavy."


Hmm, ok, well then maybe disregard my recommendation of Arkwright, that leans more economic and less puzzly. Well, maybe somewhere in the middle. But in that case I'm out of ideas, and I'm at least a little convinced that if you want a 'heavy euro' in the sense of getting an interesting puzzly feeling you're going to have to accept some rules overhead. As far as I'm concerned the best of these games are the Vital Lacerda titles, the What's Your Game? catalog (or whatever of it crosses the threshold into 'heavy'), Mombasa, and maybe Terra Mystica and Feld's heaviest games (he seems to mostly make (in my opinion mediocre) light-medium to medium stuff, but he has a couple good ones). But all of these seem to be excluded from your list for one reason or another. Though maybe I just have too narrow a view of the genre.

I guess my last attempts would be Three Kingdoms Redux and Lignum, though I'll again warn you in the latter case to just start by playing with everything and also look into the variant for choosing regions in which to cut wood. The former may have more rules than you care for, I have a hard time telling, and the latter the weight all comes from having to be very precise in your planning. They both are hard to come by now, but it appears they're being brought to the US some time in 2017, both by the same company who brought Arkwright over.

KissellMissile wrote:
I don't consider Caverna that heavy, but I listed it just to save myself the inevitable recommendation. I don't like almost any of Uwe's games, which the exception of Le Havre, because they feel too much like "turn this into this into that into points," and tend to be too wide open.

Nippon doesn't really feel that complex to me, so I would put it somewhere above medium but not heavy. Again, these terms of very relative, so I didn't bother defining them precisely, because I was interested in any recommendations.


Ok, then I guess I misunderstood you, sorry. It sounds like we pretty much agree about these terms then. And I'm also not generally a huge fan of Uwe Rosenberg games, though I am occasionally in the mood to just mindlessly turn stuff into other stuff and watch what happens, and for that he's great.

KissellMissile wrote:
Finally, I happen to love (Voyages of) Marco Polo, because I presents a unique setup each game, and I have to decide which strategy I think will work best for that setup.


Ok, well, this just further confuses me because all of that is true of Terra Mystica, and all of your criticisms of Terra Mystica are true of Marco Polo. To be clear I'm not trying to change your mind or prove you wrong or anything, just figure out what you're getting at.
 
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dark angel
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Kanban : its so heavy it has its own gravity!Our group love it.
 
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Garrett X
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Rated by weight neither of these look as heavy as you would like, but do either of them spark an interest?
King Chocolate
First Train to Nuremberg
 
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Ess Why
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Vinhos Deluxe Edition has a lot of choice although not sure you would like it if you didn't like gallerist or kanban.

What in particular about those 2 did you not like?
 
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Kevin Shillinglaw
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Maybe 18xx is the way to go...
 
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Stephan Wießler
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Maybe take a look at A Feast for Odin. It is different enough to his other games and fits totally your conditions.
 
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Ian Kissell
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esswhy wrote:
Vinhos Deluxe Edition has a lot of choice although not sure you would like it if you didn't like gallerist or kanban.

What in particular about those 2 did you not like?


The Gallerist I really wanted to like, as I think theme is interesting, but I felt the kickout actions disrupted the flow of the game. Its player 1's turn, now it's player 3's, then back to Player 2's, then back to Player 1.

Kanbahn just felt like a needlessly opaque system. It doesn't feel intuitive at all.

I want to try Vinhos at some point, but I'm a little skeptical. I'm not a big fan of the Vital bonus action system.


 
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T C
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Have you tried Scythe?

Some of the other high rated ones you haven't ruled out:

Puerto Rico
Keyflower
Caylus
Brass: Lancashire
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Ian Kissell
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jblomquist wrote:
[q="KissellMissile"]
Ok, well, this just further confuses me because all of that is true of Terra Mystica, and all of your criticisms of Terra Mystica are true of Marco Polo. To be clear I'm not trying to change your mind or prove you wrong or anything, just figure out what you're getting at.


That is very weird to me. I've always sat down at Marco Polo and felt like I didn't have choices. I like getting to look at the routes available, the bonus cities that I have, and the available characters, and try to guess which route and character is the best for this game.

To be fair, I don't dislike TM, I just don't want to own it. Once a year I'll feel like playing it, and that is enough.

 
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Ian Kissell
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morpheus133 wrote:
Have you tried Scythe?

Some of the other high rated ones you haven't ruled out:

Puerto Rico
Keyflower
Caylus
Brass: Lancashire


I really like Scythe, but there is no way I would call it Heavy.

Puerto Rico is super boring to me. I have Brass on my tablet, and that is about enough for me. I'll play it on occasion, but don't love it in person. Keyflower is not bad.

I maybe should have mentioned I've played almost all of the Top 200, so the most common titles I've tried already.
 
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Brett McLay
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Good feedback from folks. Well, we can anticipate future semi-heavies in '17.

Lacerda's Lisboa might be another action-booster. Despite one's preference the art & history is sublime.
Maybe you can look forward to Brasil -- by the designers of Nippon & Madeira.
 
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Ian Kissell
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bgmclay wrote:
Good feedback from folks. Well, we can anticipate future semi-heavies in '17.

Lacerda's Lisboa might be another action-booster. Despite one's preference the art & history is sublime.
Maybe you can look forward to Brasil -- by the designers of Nippon & Madeira.


Yeah, hopefully I don't sound ungrateful. I appreciate all the feedback. These sorts of conversations don't always work well on forums.

I don't really like Eagle Gryphon's new pricing policy, so I that is a bit of a barrier to new Lacerda games. I'm just not that interested in dropping 80+ bucks on them. Brasil I am a bit skeptical about, but I like the designers, so I'll definitely be giving it a shot.

Any recommendations from the new Essen crop?
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Erik G
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Maybe have a look at the games of What's my game: ZhanGuo, Nippon or Madeira.

Other options: La Granja and a favorite of mine: Lewis & Clark
 
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