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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » General

Subject: I'm trying to *get* it but really I don't rss

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Brad Kim
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I have backed the original game mainly due to the setting and theme of the game.
The grim dark world it was based in was very alluring to me.
My justification for the price is probably because I've spent more on games that I have not yet to play such as Descent 2 with every single expansion/minis, hoping to play them with my gaming group someday.
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Michael McFall
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I have to agree. The grim fantasy theme is what brought me in. I makes for a totally challenging game.

Survival is the challenge and that makes for a good game.
 
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Lonny x
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There's no magic. It's just fun.
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Adam Clausing
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I think a many people are thinking about the resale market in the future.
 
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Daniel Reed
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I have a buddy who spent $2500 on watch. Another who has nearly $5k in golf clubs and yet another who just spent $1k on a new compound bow.

What I have realized is that you can never rationalize why someone else will spend x on y. My buddy thinks I am crazy dropping $1666 on this game, I think its pretty dumb to spend $2500 on a watch.
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Ess Why
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Some people have no problem spending $300,000 for a car. Is that "worth" it?
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Oda
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I don't think you're going to get the answer you're looking for here. Value is subjective. Fun is subjective. You can only answer for yourself is ANY purchase is "worth it" no matter how large or small.
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Ess Why
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I disagree. It's about the completely subjective self-defined definition of worth.

If you make a million dollars a year, spending 1666 on a game is a lot different than if you make 30,000 a year.




The Eternal Champion wrote:
ravenblade23x wrote:
I have a buddy who spent $2500 on watch. Another who has nearly $5k in golf clubs and yet another who just spent $1k on a new compound bow.
.


esswhy wrote:
Some people have no problem spending $300,000 for a car


Expensive watches, cars and such are all about prestige, bragging and social status.

We're talking board games here. Not the same.
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Daniel Reed
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The Eternal Champion wrote:
ravenblade23x wrote:
I have a buddy who spent $2500 on watch. Another who has nearly $5k in golf clubs and yet another who just spent $1k on a new compound bow.
.


esswhy wrote:
Some people have no problem spending $300,000 for a car


Expensive watches, cars and such are all about prestige, bragging and social status.

We're talking board games here. Not the same.


Agree to disagree....people spend money on stuff were they find value. I like to play golf with my friends but I am super happy with my $400 set of golf clubs...many of my friends spend hundreds of dollars on a single club because they think it will make them better.

Some of those same friends will play Kingdom Death with me and enjoy it but would never spend money on it.

We all value things differently and as I said before its nearly impossible to make someone see the value in something. You clearly don't see the value in Kingdom Death but I am sure you have made many purchases in your life were I would similarly question the value.
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Dan Ridge
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The Eternal Champion wrote:
ravenblade23x wrote:
I have a buddy who spent $2500 on watch. Another who has nearly $5k in golf clubs and yet another who just spent $1k on a new compound bow.
.


esswhy wrote:
Some people have no problem spending $300,000 for a car


Expensive watches, cars and such are all about prestige, bragging and social status.

We're talking board games here. Not the same.


Well I think you've partially answered your own question, some people regard bard games as highly as an expensive watch, car, and such. People see something they want to own for themselves and so they purchase it, nothing more nothing less. Perhaps some of those people want to share the rich experience they can have with their friends and feel completely justified spending that much to share the experience.
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Paul Chamberland
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The Eternal Champion wrote:
But I need to understand: What makes people dropping $ 300+ on a single game, vanilla version? And I'm not even talking about the pledges that start at $ 700. What? Oh, and let's not forget the $ 1.666 pledge level with currently more than 700 backers. Come again?

That's a lot of money, folks.

With all due respect, but I think that's madness. It's beyond my current level of comprehension how one could spend such an amount of cash for a single game. Clearly you'll get an insane amount of stuff for your money but how is ANY game worth such high a price?

Please explain. What magic is at work here?


KDM is a miniatures game not a board game. Compare it to Warhammer 40k where one can easily spend $2000+ building an army.
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Nerds call me
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The Eternal Champion wrote:
ravenblade23x wrote:
I have a buddy who spent $2500 on watch. Another who has nearly $5k in golf clubs and yet another who just spent $1k on a new compound bow.
.


esswhy wrote:
Some people have no problem spending $300,000 for a car


Expensive watches, cars and such are all about prestige, bragging and social status.

We're talking board games here. Not the same.


And you completely missed the point.
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Brian C
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The Eternal Champion wrote:
(I'm hoping for serious elaborate answers here so please refrain from posting anything along the lines of "there's so much stuff, so much content" or "it has more than 100 hours of gameplay!".)

I'm not sure why there shouldn't be a strong correlation between the amount of gameplay in a game's box and how much it costs.

That would be the only kind of answer I'd want to hear, if I were trying to understand what it was all about.

But whether or not you want to hear it, that's the answer OP. Because the game is deep enough to warrant that kind of investment. If it were about anything but the gameplay, I for one wouldn't be here.

Edit: Unless you meant not to post one-line responses? If so, nevermind my post.. zombie
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Nerds call me
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The Eternal Champion wrote:
dorktron2000 wrote:
The Eternal Champion wrote:
ravenblade23x wrote:
I have a buddy who spent $2500 on watch. Another who has nearly $5k in golf clubs and yet another who just spent $1k on a new compound bow.
.


esswhy wrote:
Some people have no problem spending $300,000 for a car


Expensive watches, cars and such are all about prestige, bragging and social status.

We're talking board games here. Not the same.


And you completely missed the point.


Ok. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


No, thank you.
 
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Bryan
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The Eternal Champion wrote:
ravenblade23x wrote:
I have a buddy who spent $2500 on watch. Another who has nearly $5k in golf clubs and yet another who just spent $1k on a new compound bow.
.


esswhy wrote:
Some people have no problem spending $300,000 for a car


Expensive watches, cars and such are all about prestige, bragging and social status.

We're talking board games here. Not the same.


...... but ..... never mind.
 
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TechRaptor Travis
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The Eternal Champion wrote:
Mandor wrote:

KDM is a miniatures game not a board game. Compare it to Warhammer 40k where one can easily spend $2000+ building an army.


So what you're suggesting here is that Kingdom Death is basically a hobby in it's own right?

My original perception has been that it shares more similarities with games like Descent or Shadows of Brimstone albeit with a much grander scope in terms of content.


Kingdom Death: Monster IS a hobby in its own right.

Here's what makes it worthwhile for me: The experience.

I've never come across any other form of entertainment media that has so engrossed not only myself, but every. single. person. who I have shown it to, from my wife, to my friends, even my 74 year old mother. Everyone loves this game.

The gameplay is engaging, fun and remains interesting across hundreds of sessions.

The miniatures are absolutely superb.

The emergent narrative that evolves as you play is unmatched.

I play a LOT of games, many of which are really good to amazing, and yet I'd rather be playing Kingdom Death: Monster almost every time.

If you want more, let me know, because I've written close to 50k words on the game, including a review and a narrative diary of an entire campaign and I'd be happy to point you to that content.
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Paul Chamberland
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The Eternal Champion wrote:
Mandor wrote:

KDM is a miniatures game not a board game. Compare it to Warhammer 40k where one can easily spend $2000+ building an army.


So what you're suggesting here is that Kingdom Death is basically a hobby in it's own right?

My original perception has been that it shares more similarities with games like Descent or Shadows of Brimstone albeit with a much grander scope in terms of content.

Yes, it's a hobby. Adam could drop the miniatures down to Descent quality and maybe cut the retail price in half, but he won't do that as it runs counter to his vision and how he's run his boutique miniatures company. He's still putting out miniatures with no game content because they are in high demand.

Not that Descent is cheap. All of second edition is close to $1000.

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Hugh Jorgan
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The Eternal Champion wrote:
(I'm hoping for serious elaborate answers here so please refrain from posting anything along the lines of "there's so much stuff, so much content" or "it has more than 100 hours of gameplay!".)

It's hard to ignore the buzz that Kingdom Death has received throughout the (board-)gaming world. I had spent quite some time researching and reading about it when the first edition shipped to backers. I remember absolutely raving reviews about how unique and revolutionary the whole thing is, and to make one thing perfectly clear: I think that the whole concept is fascinating and full of ambition. Beautiful miniatures too, no doubt.

But I need to understand: What makes people dropping $ 300+ on a single game, vanilla version? And I'm not even talking about the pledges that start at $ 700. What? Oh, and let's not forget the $ 1.666 pledge level with currently more than 700 backers. Come again?

That's a lot of money, folks.

With all due respect, but I think that's madness. It's beyond my current level of comprehension how one could spend such an amount of cash for a single game. Clearly you'll get an insane amount of stuff for your money but how is ANY game worth such high a price?

Please explain. What magic is at work here?



How I justified this to my wife is simple, hours of entertainment yielded from the money spent. It's not a game for everyone, but for people like myself it's worth it, and here's why:

Money spent, prior to KS, on Base Game (retail February, this year) and all expansions (May sale this year) Aprox. $1200

Approximate hours of playtime - 400 (absolutely no sign of slowing down)
Approximate hours of miniature assembly (about 60%) - 6
Approximate hours of painting 15% of miniatures - 30

436hrs of enjoyment from a $1200 purchase = $2.75 per hour.
At this rate, in about 18 months time, the amount of money I've spent on KD
and the hours of enjoyment I've received would be in the black (playing KD would officially be a money saver)

Then, you'll need to consider that 5 of my expansions are still untouched and I've barely explored what's in most of my other expansions (only one or two showdowns with each). I still have the vast majority of miniatures to paint and many more to assemble.
The replayability is in a class of it's own.

Think of KD as a hobby, not a boardgame. If you want to think of it as a boardgame, think of it as every boardgame you own rolled into one.





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Ryan
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So let's start with the fact that $1000, $2000, $20,000, or whatever, does not mean the same thing to every person. A person living from paycheck to paycheck is more likely to scoff at the idea of dropping KD:M levels of money into a game than someone who leaves $2000 in one of their jacket pockets and doesn't care enough to even look for it.

Beyond that, everyone drops whatever money they can into things they enjoy. It doesn't have to, and usually won't, make any sense to those who can't spend that kind of money, or who don't spend their money in that area.

For example, nobody could ever give me a "good explanation" for why someone might spend $30,000 on a painting that looks like paint covered cats and dogs got into a fight on top of the canvas. I will never get it. However, the one answer that I can understand and accept is, "I just like it, I have the money, and it's worth it to me." More power to them - I don't have to understand!

This is the same situation. You will never get it and you don't have to get it. That's perfectly fine and it's actually the way of society.
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Matt
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As some have already written there isna subjective element to each person valuation of this game, so no explanation will ever be truly satisfying if you are not already inclined to enjoy a certain kind of product or activity. That being said, I'll take a crack at justifying my own motivations for purchasing this game. First off, my wife and I jointly purchased this game after the initial kickstarter and play it only with the other person present. We've been playing BGs together for a number of years and have dropped $50 or more on a single game which we might get 30-40 hours of play out of before it gets repetitive or predictable. When I first started looking into KDM what really caught my attention was the extremely compelling artistic and practical design of the game. What got me really excited about it was the extensive campaign format and the replayability factor. Each year of the campaign builds on the previous while simultaneously providing new oppurtunities, challenges, and capabilities. Beyond Legacy games, I haven't really come across a game with the kind of continuity KDM has, and those are one-offs with a fairly hefty price tag on their own.
Now we are not rolling in disposable income. Between the two of us we make just under $100k a year, with a mortgage and two kids. $400 is a significant investment for a non-essential and we didn't make it lightly (hence the joint decision). However, neither of us has regretted the decision in the slightest. For a product that we can use together, that has really inspired both of us imaginatively and strategically, and that we haven't even come close to exhausting the value of yet after well over 50 hours of play, the price seems reasonable. That doesn't include the time we've spent assembling our miniatures, which I had no experience with before but have discovered I really enjoy, to the point that I'm exploring miniature painting as a new hobby.
So, I would say that if you are having trouble understanding the appeal of the game in regards to the price, you might find better value elsewhere. For me, there simply wasn't another product on the market that could deliver on so many of my interests in such a profound way, and so I am happy to keep supporting it. I've bought four of the expansions now, and will in all likelihood support the kickstarter at the 195 level, because I am by no means done with this world.
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Orion Free
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Here's the thing. The highest tier update pack is sold out. That is the players who paid for the original game, and think this is worth continuing to buy and support. Some of those people got the super cheap deal in the original KS, but certainly not everyone. This kickstarter is good evidence that most of us who paid a lot for the original game do not just say that it is awesome because it is expensive - if that was the case, we just wouldn't buy any more. All of us who have the game and want to back and get the update and new expansions find value in the game and the world of the game.

It's totally worth it to me. You think I'm crazy because of how much I spend on this, and you can judge us if you want, but it has been totally worth it for me. It's a unique and fun experience, and fills a niche that I didn't know I ever had.
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I would peg it more on the aesthetics of the game: the art, the theme, miniatures, and the Idea of the game. It's mysterious, it's epic, it's dark, it's mature, it's life, it's history... it's alot of different things to alot of people.

Mechanically speaking though, I would say there's not *that* much to the game. This is the ultimate in Ameritrash boardgaming and the game is filled to the brim with random dice rolls and card draws. You have some ability to mitigate and control probabilities while you play based on some decisions that you make. It's alot of randomization, which some people like and some people don't care for.

There's also not *that* much story to it either, not in the traditional sense. There's actually very little written for each "Story Event", maybe a few sentences for each encounter, but nothing that really gives you a sense that you were there. Oftentimes it's more cryptic than anything. Sure there's hundreds of different events that can happen and when taken as a whole it seems like alot, but most of the time it's just a short description and an effect that happens to a random survivor. You're just so disconnected from the outcome because it only came about because of a dice roll. Stories happen in the game, but it's whatever organic narratives crop up during gameplay, however that's not especially unique to Kingdom Death either.

Ultimately though, I think most people go for the visuals and the dark, mature nature of the game. Very few games are so unabashedly un-family friendly and treat the players like adults. This is a rated R boardgame in an ocean of Rated G and PG13.
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Greg
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paddirn wrote:
I would peg it more on the aesthetics of the game: the art, the theme, miniatures, and the Idea of the game. It's mysterious, it's epic, it's dark, it's mature, it's life, it's history... it's alot of different things to alot of people.

Mechanically speaking though, I would say there's not *that* much to the game. This is the ultimate in Ameritrash boardgaming and the game is filled to the brim with random dice rolls and card draws. You have some ability to mitigate and control probabilities while you play based on some decisions that you make. It's alot of randomization, which some people like and some people don't care for.

There's also not *that* much story to it either, not in the traditional sense. There's actually very little written for each "Story Event", maybe a few sentences for each encounter, but nothing that really gives you a sense that you were there. Oftentimes it's more cryptic than anything. Sure there's hundreds of different events that can happen and when taken as a whole it seems like alot, but most of the time it's just a short description and an effect that happens to a random survivor. You're just so disconnected from the outcome because it only came about because of a dice roll. Stories happen in the game, but it's whatever organic narratives crop up during gameplay, however that's not especially unique to Kingdom Death either.

Ultimately though, I think most people go for the visuals and the dark, mature nature of the game. Very few games are so unabashedly un-family friendly and treat the players like adults. This is a rated R boardgame in an ocean of Rated G and PG13.


Yep, that's pretty much how I felt about it. I went into it expecting some sort of revolutionary gaming experience and was honestly surprised it was the same 'ol "move your mini and roll to hit and wound" I'd played in a dozen other games. That, followed by the 'ol random event tables, straight out of an RPG from 30 years ago. I was underwhelmed, to say the least. I started to wonder if the people who loved it had just never played an RPG, or a miniatures game before.

But one thing I have come to respect about KDM: it does have a weird kind of mystique to it, for lack of a better word. The weird, vague setting, the creepy miniatures, the artwork... there is something unique and special about that stuff, and I think that's a big part of what draws people in and keeps them. In other words, the actual game mechanics are pretty rote, but the overall style of it is compelling.

It really makes me wonder what would have happened if GW had published this exact game. Would it have been the same huge success, or is part of its cachet due to it being the product of the "lone, indie, mad scientist/genius guy?"
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Blaine French

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Glic2003 wrote:
paddirn wrote:
I would peg it more on the aesthetics of the game: the art, the theme, miniatures, and the Idea of the game. It's mysterious, it's epic, it's dark, it's mature, it's life, it's history... it's alot of different things to alot of people.

Mechanically speaking though, I would say there's not *that* much to the game. This is the ultimate in Ameritrash boardgaming and the game is filled to the brim with random dice rolls and card draws. You have some ability to mitigate and control probabilities while you play based on some decisions that you make. It's alot of randomization, which some people like and some people don't care for.

There's also not *that* much story to it either, not in the traditional sense. There's actually very little written for each "Story Event", maybe a few sentences for each encounter, but nothing that really gives you a sense that you were there. Oftentimes it's more cryptic than anything. Sure there's hundreds of different events that can happen and when taken as a whole it seems like alot, but most of the time it's just a short description and an effect that happens to a random survivor. You're just so disconnected from the outcome because it only came about because of a dice roll. Stories happen in the game, but it's whatever organic narratives crop up during gameplay, however that's not especially unique to Kingdom Death either.

Ultimately though, I think most people go for the visuals and the dark, mature nature of the game. Very few games are so unabashedly un-family friendly and treat the players like adults. This is a rated R boardgame in an ocean of Rated G and PG13.


Yep, that's pretty much how I felt about it. I went in to it expecting some sort of revolutionary gaming experience and was honestly surprised it was the same 'ol "move your mini and roll to hit and wound" I'd played in a dozen other games. That, followed by the 'ol random event tables, straight out of an RPG from 30 years ago. I was underwhelmed, to say the least. I started to wonder if the people who loved it had just never played an RPG, or a miniatures game before.

But one thing I have come to respect about KDM: it does have a weird kind of mystique to it, for lack of a better word. The weird, vague setting, the creepy miniatures, the artwork... there is something unique and special about that stuff, and I think that's a big part of what draws people in and keeps them. In other words, the actual game mechanics are pretty rote, but the overall style of it is compelling.

It really makes me wonder what would have happened if GW had published this exact game. Would it have been the same huge success, or is part of its cachet due to it being the product of the "lone, indie, mad scientist/genius guy?"


I think you make a valid point regarding the old school RPGs. I'm in my early 30's and have very fond memories of playing Warhammer quest (dungeon delve then roll on a random chart for terrible things to happen to you in town). I have also played some second edition D&D, Warhammer, Warhammer 40k, Warmachine, Hordes, Infinity, X-Wing, and Malifaux over the years.

I think what makes this stand out is the co-operative setting with AI controlled monsters. Our experience with it has shown some excellent design mechanics, and I think this is where KDM stands head and shoulders above some of the older games. Also, the difficulty curve is exponential and myself and my friends find something satisfying about conquering a new challenge.

I purchased at early retail for just under $300 and I can't even begin to keep track of the number of hours played. My best friend from Portland flew in for a guys weekend and we easily logged 15+ hours in 3 days and only made it half way through a People of the Sun campaign. I've easily dropped over $700 prior to this kickstarter and not regretted a penny.




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Elliott Harding
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How is this game different then say Shadows of Brimstone? It seems that both have monsters controlled by AI, both allow you to build your characters, KD has a settlement phase, Brimstone has a town phase, both are co-op. Brimstone does not have a hunt phase, but does have a dungeon crawl.

Are they pretty similar?

Thanks!
 
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