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Subject: 3 Actions per commando, or 3 action points? rss

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Klaus Scharpf
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Love the game, but when playing training mission #2 I ran into an issue:
Can I use 3 actions per commando that cannot be more than 3 action points of cost?
Or can I use any combination of actions as long as I don't spend more than 3 action points?

This is important since some Commandos have 0 cost actions that could be combined nicely with other actions.
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Billy Bradford
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KlausScharpf wrote:
Love the game, but when playing training mission #2 I ran into an issue:
Can I use 3 actions per commando that cannot be more than 3 action points of cost?
Or can I use any combination of actions as long as I don't spend more than 3 action points?

This is important since some Commandos have 0 cost actions that could be combined nicely with other actions.


Now that you mentioned it, I am starting to view the commando actions in two ways based on this example:

First action: move (1A)
Second action: drop equipment (0A)
Third action: unblock a trap door (1A)

(1) We selected/used three actions and spent only 2 "Action Points" from the example above by choosing exactly three actions from the list of Coammando actions (page 6 of the rulebook).
(2) We used only two actions based on the cost within the parentheses. So we can still perform more actions until the remaining 1 "Action Point" is spent.

We could not find the term "Action Point" used in the rulebook, and the number of actions and the cost of #A is causing some confusion.

We played it the second way, thus when playing an action requiring 0 "Action Point", we played it as a free action, allowing us to do more than three actions actually, which I am think it is wrong based on "perform up to three actions" whereby the game would be easier that way.

Before this is being clear up, we will probably be playing the first way, by choosing three actions that will not exceed 3 "Action Points". However even if the total actions require less than 3 "Action Points", we only get to keep one action (+1 token) for future use if only one of the action is "Saving an action".
 
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Christian Langer
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KlausScharpf wrote:
Love the game, but when playing training mission #2 I ran into an issue:
Can I use 3 actions per commando that cannot be more than 3 action points of cost?
Or can I use any combination of actions as long as I don't spend more than 3 action points?

This is important since some Commandos have 0 cost actions that could be combined nicely with other actions.


That is an interesting observation - one could really read it in both ways!
My personal take is that it wouldn't make much sense if you only had three actions that may not exceed three action points in total. Because as you said it, what use would the 0A abilities of some characters have? Take the Medic who can use a first aid kit without spending an action, or the Sapper who can place TNT without using an action - there wouldn't be much of a benefit, if you say they still use one of three possible actions per turn. Sounds to me like a really hard way to play.
But once again, truly when reading the rules, you can understand it in both ways...
 
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Phil McDonald
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You are right, the wording is unclear. When I read the rules I just assummed it meant 3 action points and even after re-reading, that makes more sense to me.

There are a few places in the rules where the wording isn't as clear as it should be. I suspect it is due to translation. That seems to be common with KS games when rules are translated. The worst example I have come across is Time of Soccer
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Terry Simo
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I've been playing it as if I have 3 action points. So if I spend 2AP to stealthily enter a medium tile then I have only 1AP left.
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Phil McDonald
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T-Mo wrote:
I've been playing it as if I have 3 action points. So if I spend 2AP to stealthily enter a medium tile then I have only 1AP left.


The OP was referring to the rules saying each commando can perform 3 actions. It then goes on to detail the action 'points'. As the rules are written, if you did 3 zero points actions, your turn is over. Then again, these could also be thought of as FREE actions.

I don't think that's what the designer intended, I think it should be read as 3 action points rather than 3 actions, but it is unclear.
 
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Christian Langer
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2bpencil wrote:


We could not find the term "Action Point" used in the rulebook, and the number of actions and the cost of #A is causing some confusion.


I just came across the term "action points" in the chapter about "Escorting a character", p. 21. Here it says that the escorted character "does not have any action points".
That speaks in favour of 3 action points instead of 3 actions I'd say.
 
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Phil McDonald
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Cornicer wrote:
2bpencil wrote:


We could not find the term "Action Point" used in the rulebook, and the number of actions and the cost of #A is causing some confusion.


I just came across the term "action points" in the chapter about "Escorting a character", p. 21. Here it says that the escorted character "does not have any action points".
That speaks in favour of 3 action points instead of 3 actions I'd say.


I think you're right, but it's more a case of confirming that it isn't 3 actions AND with a maximum of 3 action points.
 
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Tyrone ..................
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I also defined it as a commando having 3 action points they could spend per turn.
 
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François Mahieu
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rccoll wrote:
I also defined it as a commando having 3 action points they could spend per turn.


The french rulebook clearly states 3 actions, whatever their individual cost.
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Klaus Scharpf
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After reading all the replies I think I would like a definite answer from the designer, since there are still some edge cases:

If it means 3 action points then everything works just fine for me :-)

On the other hand: If it means you can only do 3 actions on your turn...

1Does this also include 0(zero) cost actions?
2Would this include ALL the zero cost actions your commando can do during the turn, even during another commando's turn or the enemy turn?
If yes, then I would need to keep track of actions AND keep some in reserve for later.
3What about the +1 action? If you have one I assume it still gives you one extra (fourth) action, right?

The more I think about it the more I think it is action points, but you can prove me wrong.


And just to give you a real-life example why I am even asking about this:

I played training mission 2 and did the following, after the event phase
* Sapper and Officer are outside.
* Officer is on small tile next to room with blocked trap door
* Sapper is on medium outdoor tile next to officer
* Sapper had (+1) token.

Sapper goes first
d10-11 Action: Sapper moves into small tile next to door
d10-21 Action: Sapper moves into small room
d10-31 Action: Sapper unblocks trap door (they really want to make a fast getaway)
d10-41 Action: (using (+1) token).
Sapper moves into room with objective and doesn't care that the four Germans in there see him.
Alarm gets raised, but so far so good
No reactive fire by the Germans, since they are too dumbfounded to see him walk in ;-)
d10-50 Action: Sapper plants TNT charge on objective while Germans stare in disbelief
d10-60 Action: Officer uses is zero cost action to give the Sapper a (+1) token.
This should be possible, since zero cost actions can be performed on another characters turn.
d10-71 Action: Sapper tries to run out of room (that's the only chance he has to survive this... maybe)
This was from the (+1) token
Now the Germans wake up and gun him down due to reactive fire (sadly I rolled 7 hits)

Now the officer has his turn.
d10-11 Action: Move into room with trap door
d10-21 Action: Blow up TNT. This finishes the objective and "takes care" of the German soldiers
"That will teach them not to shoot at my friend"
d10-31 Action: Enter trap door, which also means the officer is done.

Please poke as many holes as you can into what I did here... and hoping Thibaud helps clear this up.

I LOVE THIS GAME!
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Thibaud de la Touanne
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The problem comes from the wording as some of you guessed. Each commando has 3 action points (AP) per turn. They are only limited by their AP available.

Here are examples that should anwser your questions:

>>> A commando starts his turn with 3AP
- Move (1 AP cost) - 2 AP remaining
- Pick up an equipment token (0 AP cost) - still 2 AP remaining
- Pick up another equipment token (0 AP cost) - still 2 AP remaining
- Move stealthily to a medium tile (2 AP cost) - 0 AP remaining
- Blow up a TNT (0 AP cost) - still 0 AP remaining
>>> End of turn

Now, lets consider he saved a "+1 action" token in a previous turn:

>>> A commando starts his turn with 3 AP + 1 AP (the "+1 action" token), he may use it during this turn or keep it for later use.
- Pick up a StG44 token (0 AP cost) - 3 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 2 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 1 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 0 AP remaining Note: these enemy units were hard to shoot! And now the commando is visible because of his noisy weapon! The player decides to spend his "+1 action" token to move baco to cover, now he has 1 AP remaining
- Move (1 AP cost) - 0 actions remaining
>>> End of turn

About the tranlation, I worked with 3 professionnal English translators/proofreaders/editors. The problem comes from me to be honnest, so it is also present in the French version .
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Klaus Scharpf
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Thanks for the reply.

So I used the correct approach

And thank you for being so active in the forums!
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Thibaud de la Touanne
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KlausScharpf wrote:

And just to give you a real-life example why I am even asking about this:

I played training mission 2 and did the following, after the event phase
* Sapper and Officer are outside.
* Officer is on small tile next to room with blocked trap door
* Sapper is on medium outdoor tile next to officer
* Sapper had (+1) token.

Sapper goes first
d10-11 Action: Sapper moves into small tile next to door
d10-21 Action: Sapper moves into small room
d10-31 Action: Sapper unblocks trap door (they really want to make a fast getaway)
d10-41 Action: (using (+1) token).
Sapper moves into room with objective and doesn't care that the four Germans in there see him.
Alarm gets raised, but so far so good
No reactive fire by the Germans, since they are too dumbfounded to see him walk in ;-)
d10-50 Action: Sapper plants TNT charge on objective while Germans stare in disbelief
d10-60 Action: Officer uses is zero cost action to give the Sapper a (+1) token.
This should be possible, since zero cost actions can be performed on another characters turn.
d10-71 Action: Sapper tries to run out of room (that's the only chance he has to survive this... maybe)
This was from the (+1) token
Now the Germans wake up and gun him down due to reactive fire (sadly I rolled 7 hits)

Now the officer has his turn.
d10-11 Action: Move into room with trap door
d10-21 Action: Blow up TNT. This finishes the objective and "takes care" of the German soldiers
"That will teach them not to shoot at my friend"
d10-31 Action: Enter trap door, which also means the officer is done.

Please poke as many holes as you can into what I did here... and hoping Thibaud helps clear this up.

I LOVE THIS GAME!


You did almost perfectly, congrats! The only thing wrong is that blowing up a TNT costs 0 action. so the Officer could have saved 1 action before entering the trap door.
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Klaus Scharpf
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Awesome. Thanks
 
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François Mahieu
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ThibaudMTL wrote:
The problem comes from the wording as some of you guessed. Each commando has 3 action points (AP) per turn. They are only limited by their AP available.

Here are examples that should anwser your questions:

>>> A commando starts his turn with 3AP
- Move (1 AP cost) - 2 AP remaining
- Pick up an equipment token (0 AP cost) - still 2 AP remaining
- Pick up another equipment token (0 AP cost) - still 2 AP remaining
- Move stealthily to a medium tile (2 AP cost) - 0 AP remaining
- Blow up a TNT (0 AP cost) - still 0 AP remaining
>>> End of turn

Now, lets consider he saved a "+1 action" token in a previous turn:

>>> A commando starts his turn with 3 AP + 1 AP (the "+1 action" token), he may use it during this turn or keep it for later use.
- Pick up a StG44 token (0 AP cost) - 3 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 2 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 1 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 0 AP remaining Note: these enemy units were hard to shoot! And now the commando is visible because of his noisy weapon! The player decides to spend his "+1 action" token to move baco to cover, now he has 1 AP remaining
- Move (1 AP cost) - 0 actions remaining
>>> End of turn

About the tranlation, I worked with 3 professionnal English translators/proofreaders/editors. The problem comes from me to be honnest, so it is also present in the French version .


Hopefully this was adressed. Indeed the rulebook might be confusing about this.
 
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Mike B
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poifpoif wrote:
ThibaudMTL wrote:
The problem comes from the wording as some of you guessed. Each commando has 3 action points (AP) per turn. They are only limited by their AP available.

Here are examples that should anwser your questions:

>>> A commando starts his turn with 3AP
- Move (1 AP cost) - 2 AP remaining
- Pick up an equipment token (0 AP cost) - still 2 AP remaining
- Pick up another equipment token (0 AP cost) - still 2 AP remaining
- Move stealthily to a medium tile (2 AP cost) - 0 AP remaining
- Blow up a TNT (0 AP cost) - still 0 AP remaining
>>> End of turn

Now, lets consider he saved a "+1 action" token in a previous turn:

>>> A commando starts his turn with 3 AP + 1 AP (the "+1 action" token), he may use it during this turn or keep it for later use.
- Pick up a StG44 token (0 AP cost) - 3 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 2 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 1 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 0 AP remaining Note: these enemy units were hard to shoot! And now the commando is visible because of his noisy weapon! The player decides to spend his "+1 action" token to move baco to cover, now he has 1 AP remaining
- Move (1 AP cost) - 0 actions remaining
>>> End of turn

About the tranlation, I worked with 3 professionnal English translators/proofreaders/editors. The problem comes from me to be honnest, so it is also present in the French version .


Hopefully this was adressed. Indeed the rulebook might be confusing about this.


This has been confusing me as well. I don't think the Officer in this example can give his "+1" 0 Action cost during the Sapper's Turn. My understanding was that the "0" cost actions can only be used at specific times either before OR after another commando's turn, as commandos have to conduct all their actions before another commando can go - though I'd give the "0" actions an allowance by various commandos between commandos turns.

Played a couple games this weekend. Much fun so far!
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Phil McDonald
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mbol wrote:
poifpoif wrote:
ThibaudMTL wrote:
The problem comes from the wording as some of you guessed. Each commando has 3 action points (AP) per turn. They are only limited by their AP available.

Here are examples that should anwser your questions:

>>> A commando starts his turn with 3AP
- Move (1 AP cost) - 2 AP remaining
- Pick up an equipment token (0 AP cost) - still 2 AP remaining
- Pick up another equipment token (0 AP cost) - still 2 AP remaining
- Move stealthily to a medium tile (2 AP cost) - 0 AP remaining
- Blow up a TNT (0 AP cost) - still 0 AP remaining
>>> End of turn

Now, lets consider he saved a "+1 action" token in a previous turn:

>>> A commando starts his turn with 3 AP + 1 AP (the "+1 action" token), he may use it during this turn or keep it for later use.
- Pick up a StG44 token (0 AP cost) - 3 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 2 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 1 AP remaining
- Shoot (1 AP cost) - 0 AP remaining Note: these enemy units were hard to shoot! And now the commando is visible because of his noisy weapon! The player decides to spend his "+1 action" token to move baco to cover, now he has 1 AP remaining
- Move (1 AP cost) - 0 actions remaining
>>> End of turn

About the tranlation, I worked with 3 professionnal English translators/proofreaders/editors. The problem comes from me to be honnest, so it is also present in the French version .


Hopefully this was adressed. Indeed the rulebook might be confusing about this.


This has been confusing me as well. I don't think the Officer in this example can give his "+1" 0 Action cost during the Sapper's Turn. My understanding was that the "0" cost actions can only be used at specific times either before OR after another commando's turn, as commandos have to conduct all their actions before another commando can go - though I'd give the "0" actions an allowance by various commandos between commandos turns.

Played a couple games this weekend. Much fun so far!


Nope, it's between actions, not between turns. See the box at the bottom of page 6 in the rules.
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Mike B
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Ok! Thanks for the clarification. That actually makes it a bit easier. (but this is only "0" cost actions)
 
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Phil McDonald
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mbol wrote:
Ok! Thanks for the clarification. That actually makes it a bit easier. (but this is only "0" cost actions)


+1 actions are used under the same conditions as 0 AP actions as stated in the rules.
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