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Goths Save The Queen» Forums » Rules

Subject: I must be missing something rss

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Nushura
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Hei all,

We played the game last week, but we must be missing something: as in, it is soooo easy to end up in a deadlock.

For example, what is wrong if we always use the Goth goth? The result is that the opponent cannot do anything and we get a benefit if they manage to communicate. Of course, they will do the same and we are in an eternal loop.

Similarly with the catapult. First of all, it is not that good: you must spend 2 actions to do 2 damage. Isn't throwing axes twice better? It also does 2 damage overall, but it is 1/1 rather than 0/2 damage (which is more risky because in between the opponent can act freely)

But assume the opponent has a catapult ready and threatens a catapult action. Then, I respond with a vulture. If they communicate and catapult I use the vulture to destroy while they reload. Next turn he again threatens with catapult and we respond with the same.....and yet another eternal cycle.

If you pick up all cards always you can simply loop forever the same action. Or are we missing something?
 
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Vincent BONNARD
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Hi,

i'am GSTQ designer.

Thanks for the interest you bring to Goths save the queen.

First of all, the Goth Goth of the expansion can only be used once during the game. It must then be discarded. There is a small error in the rule provided with. A fix will soon be online.

The catapult may be more advantageous than axes for several reasons: first of all, by its positioning in the order of the turn. It is played before the enemy can build barricades. This is essential in double guessing and bluffing. Similarly the axes are played after the mmoving's ennemy, not the catapult. Finally, they constitute a strong threat that will affect how the enemy will act. A sword of damocles so placed is quite stressful.
Concerning the loop, it must be considered that the first one that breaks it has a certain advantage. Imagine that instead of using the vulture to unload, you spy. The enemy will therefore unnecessarily reload his catapult. This is all the more difficult as both partners have to be synchronized. Iniatiative is also decisive in decision-making.
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Nushura
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Hei Vincent,

Thanks for the responses.

It makes a lot of sense that the so powerful Goth goth can only be used once per game. The rules said nothing about it....now it is clear

As for the catapult, I am sorry but I still don't get it.

Say that my opponent loads a catapult. I ignore and send a different order (say, advance). Next turn they have a ready ballista, and threaten to use it. I use the vulture in response. If they actually did a ballista (cards are revealed before first is executed) then I use the vulture to break it...but then they execute their action which loads again the ballista and places us in the same spot, right?

Then we are in the same position: if they threaten to shoot, I use a vulture, etc etc.

The only way out of the deadlock is if the threatened team is first, they use a vulture...but the other team does a non-ballista action (say, advance).

In this case the result is still is that everyone has done one action (both advanced once) but the initiative is now on the other team...so if they rush to the end they have more chances of winning.

Or are we missing something?
 
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Starvince wrote:
Hi,

i'am GSTQ designer.



Bonjour Vincent,


Would you by any chance know where we can get the GSTQ promo expansion?

It wasn't included when I got the game.


Would really like for this beautifully, funny game to be complete.


Thanks in advance for your reply
 
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Simon Barnes
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Nushura wrote:
assume the opponent has a catapult ready and threatens a catapult action. Then, I respond with a vulture. If they communicate and catapult I use the vulture to destroy while they reload. Next turn he again threatens with catapult and we respond with the same.....and yet another eternal cycle.


Nushura wrote:
Say that my opponent loads a catapult. I ignore and send a different order (say, advance). Next turn they have a ready ballista, and threaten to use it. I use the vulture in response. If they actually did a ballista (cards are revealed before first is executed) then I use the vulture to break it...but then they execute their action which loads again the ballista and places us in the same spot, right?


It looks like there was no response so I'll chip in with my tuppence after reading the rules (not playing the game).

When the catapult action is chosen the important point is WHICH catapult card is chosen? Is it reload or fire? If reload is chosen then the catapult is correctly reloaded after a vulture raid. If fire is chosen then the action is wasted as the vulture caused the catapult to be made inactive.

I don't know exactly how you are playing it but it sounds like you are doing it wrong. You seem to be treating the catapult action as a reload/fire option when it isn't. It is either one or the other, based on the card the warchief has chosen. It's up to the warchief to guess whether the opponent is raiding his catapult (in which case choose reload) or not (in which case choose fire and hope they aren't on the barricade).
 
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Nushura
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simon_j_barnes wrote:

It looks like there was no response so I'll chip in with my tuppence after reading the rules (not playing the game).

When the catapult action is chosen the important point is WHICH catapult card is chosen? Is it reload or fire? [...]


Remember we are in the setting in which the opponent has a loaded catapult already. Why would he load an already loaded catapult?

And in either case, my vulture action is not bad;

If they were using the catapult -> they lost two actions and we only lost one

If they were loading the catapult -> We destroy, they fix, which ends as if nothing happened in a turn (the actions cancel each other).

The only thing that can break the cycle is when the Vulture team has the initiative, they play a vulture...and the catapult team does a different action.

But even in this case the result is that both teams wasted an action. The exact same set of moves without the catapult would have lead to the same result.
 
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Simon Barnes
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Nushura wrote:
Remember we are in the setting in which the opponent has a loaded catapult already. Why would he load an already loaded catapult?


Well what happens if he tries to fire and you have sent a vulture to wreck it? He doesn't fire and his catapult goes back to inactive.

Nushura wrote:
And in either case, my vulture action is not bad;


No. In the case you try to fire you now have an inactive catapult. In the case you reload you have an active catapult. One is clearly better than the other.

Nushura wrote:
If they were using the catapult -> they lost two actions and we only lost one


Only if they were firing it. Not if they were loading it. In that case you both lose one action.

Nushura wrote:
If they were loading the catapult -> We destroy, they fix, which ends as if nothing happened in a turn (the actions cancel each other).
Yes and then initiative changes and one of the kings could choose a card with a different set of potential actions. So you could send rats if your opponent's army is in a barricade or throw axes for example, alternatively recruit or move your own army. Either way whichever the king chooses the alternative should probably involve the catapult so as to throw your opponent off your plans. That is the game in a nutshell.
 
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Nushura
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You did not seem to get my pointI am trying to show why using the catapult is bad. Let me be more clear:

Turn 1: team A (my adversaries) load the catapult, team B (me and a friend) ignore the load and we progress toward our goal (say, advance).

From now on we (me and my partner) go into full Vulture mode:

Say that in the future team A has the initiative and plays a catapult card. Then we respond with a "destroy catapult" vulture action.

Case 1: team A reloads the catapult. The overall result is that nothing happens (catapult is destroyed and rebuilt)....but my team still has the 1 action advantagefrom before.

Case 2: player A was shooting. The result is that player A lost his action and the threat to shoot...which is a total loss for team A (good for me!)

So, in the best case team A manages to keep his catapult to maybe recover the action they invested.

Whenever Team B has the initiative, we play a vulture.

If team A reloads and team B destroys catapult...again we are in the same situation: Team B gained an action, team A has possibility to recover.

If team A reloads and team B uses vulture to scout... team B gained a second action

If team A progresses and team B was destroying catapult... the load and destroy balance out and both teams have progressed once.

If team A progresses and team B used vulture to explore...well, team A did one progress action and has threat whereas team B did two actions.

Which takes me to my point. Why would team A ever invest an action to load a catapult? The best outcome is that they end up recovering that action when team B destroys it.

I will say it in a different way. Say that my team always uses the following strategy:

-If we have initiative and you have a loaded catapult -> we use destroy vulture

-If you have initiative, have a loaded catapult and play a card that could be a shoot catapult -> we use destroy vulture

-If we have only 1 warrior -> we recruit

-Otherwise we simply advance or try to scout where the princess is

Even knowing this...can you make a sequence of moves in which you use the catapult and win?

 
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Simon Barnes
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Nushura wrote:
Turn 1: team A (my adversaries) load the catapult, team B (me and a friend) ignore the load and we progress toward our goal (say, advance)


If the army is out in the open and thus exposed then your opponent should probably throw axes as a response to being certain that your vulture is going to attack the catapult.

You will then have 1 exposed soldier and your opponent has 2 soldiers in the forest.

Nushura wrote:
From now on we (me and my partner) go into full Vulture mode:

Say that in the future team A has the initiative and plays a catapult card. Then we respond with a "destroy catapult" vulture action.

Case 1: team A reloads the catapult. The overall result is that nothing happens (catapult is destroyed and rebuilt)....but my team still has the 1 action advantagefrom before.


And now what do you do now that you have initiative? Do you play a card that has a vulture on again? If so (and knowing you plan to attack with the vulture) your opponent feints a catapult but attacks you with axes. You are now in the situation I described above. Lose that troop and you have lost the game.

Nushura wrote:
Case 2: player A was shooting. The result is that player A lost his action and the threat to shoot...which is a total loss for team A (good for me!)

Yes good for you. Your team second guessed your opponents move and countered it correctly.



Nushura wrote:
So, in the best case team A manages to keep his catapult to maybe recover the action they invested.

Whenever Team B has the initiative, we play a vulture.

If team A reloads and team B destroys catapult...again we are in the same situation: Team B gained an action, team A has possibility to recover.

If team A reloads and team B uses vulture to scout... team B gained a second action

If team A progresses and team B was destroying catapult... the load and destroy balance out and both teams have progressed once.

If team A progresses and team B used vulture to explore...well, team A did one progress action and has threat whereas team B did two actions.


All of these are ok but assume there is no real feinting going on. If your opponent feints to use the catapult and instead attacks then unless you choose to destroy the catapult an opponent can destroy one of your troops and have catapult threat also.

Nushura wrote:
Which takes me to my point. Why would team A ever invest an action to load a catapult? The best outcome is that they end up recovering that action when team B destroys it.

I will say it in a different way. Say that my team always uses the following strategy:

-If we have initiative and you have a loaded catapult -> we use destroy vulture Then we damage your army or progress our own

-If you have initiative, have a loaded catapult and play a card that could be a shoot catapult -> we use destroy vulture Then we damage your army or progress our own

-If we have only 1 warrior -> we recruit

-Otherwise we simply advance or try to scout where the princess is

Even knowing this...can you make a sequence of moves in which you use the catapult and win?



I'll turn it around, knowing your programmed sequence of moves can your opponent lose?

If you always recruit on 1 troop then your opponent could always attack result is infinite loop.

If you always attack a readied catapult then opponent will attack your army then you are back into infinite loop as above.

So your opponent can't win but neither can you, it becomes tic-tac-toe.

So let's consider your programmed rules:
Army is 1 = recruit
Catapult ready = Vulture attack

Initiative is with Team A:

Team A Load Catapult
Team B Advance

Team B Vulture Attack
Team A Throw Axes

Team A Load Catapult
Team B Recruit

Team B Vulture Attack
Team A Throw Axes

You are now both stuck in an infinite loop. One of you needs to break the loop to get an advantage. Alternatively if you mix up your vulture to a scout action then you are in potentially big trouble. Army size = 1 facing a loaded catapult. I'd imagine a king would choose the catapult/Barbarian card and hope his warchief second guesses correctly and you guess wrong. In which case they win.

TLDR If you always respond to the catapult the same then your opponent might not win but neither will you because your opponent could always respond the same to your response.
 
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Nushura
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Hei again, Let me thank you for your patience and sticking up with my questions. Let me answer the most important first:

simon_j_barnes wrote:

So your opponent can't win but neither can you, it becomes tic-tac-toe.

I know that my strategy could lead to an infinite loop. That is exactly my point! The fact is, I played this game with two different groups of gamers and after a game or two they reached the same conclusion as me: it is pointless to use catapult. If catapult is useless, then barricade, and rats also lose sense (I did not say anything in either case. the players found this by playing the game and me explaining the rules).

A game for which you can immediately find an optimal strategy is not a game in my opinion. There are no meaningful choices.

This is the main reason why I came to this forum: I was hoping that someone would point a mistake in the rules...but you are assuring me in the fact that this game is simply broken!

simon_j_barnes wrote:

I'll turn it around, knowing your programmed sequence of moves can your opponent lose?

Yes, of course...but it will be up to luck who wins. Since my strategy is so good, it is natural that my opponent also uses as well.

In this case we would both ignore each other and rush to the princess. The winner is the lucky one who happens to scout the princess earlier (or simply rushes in if enough life).

If he wants, we can play the game forever (the same way I can force an infinite loop as well).

Does this make a fun game? no

Does the game provide any motivation for playing in a different way? no

Now to your specific comments:

simon_j_barnes wrote:

If the army is out in the open and thus exposed then your opponent should probably throw axes as a response to being certain that your vulture is going to attack the catapult.

You will then have 1 exposed soldier and your opponent has 2 soldiers in the forest.

Sure, I have one unit less, but I also moved one step forward. I call this a tie

simon_j_barnes wrote:

All of these are ok but assume there is no real feinting going on. If your opponent feints to use the catapult and instead attacks then unless you choose to destroy the catapult an opponent can destroy one of your troops and have catapult threat also.

Sure, I forgot this case...but look at progress. The opponent has a loaded catapult and killed one of my units (say, 2 regress for me)...but they have not moved since the start.

Meanwhile, my team has done 2 progress. Say, move forward and scouted a region to know whether or not it has the princess. This is again a tie.

simon_j_barnes wrote:

[...] You are now in the situation I described above. Lose that troop and you have lost the game.

I fail to see how from here on we lose the game: they have done 2 destructive actions towards us, but we have done 2 constructive actions towards reaching the queen (again, give me an example with the strategy I posted before).
 
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Simon Barnes
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Quote:
A game for which you can immediately find an optimal strategy is not a game in my opinion.
What is the optimal strategy? Not to use catapults? Did you notice how in your previous post you noted a series of responses to your opponent based on the loading of a catapult and the possible outcomes? It went like this:

If Team B's Vulture Attacks while Team A fires. End result: We advance by 1 step and they don't.
If Team B's Vulture Scouts while Team A reloads. End result: We advance by 1 step and they don't
If Team B's Vulture Attacks while Team A reloads. End Result: Draw

Did you notice the one you missed? If you don't want to risk losing why would you ever risk scouting. If your opponent fires when you scout it's game over.

So you never scout. Your opponent chooses to never fire. The advantage in this round is now with your opponent to take.. all they have to do is throw axes.

Quote:

but it will be up to luck who wins. Since my strategy is so good, it is natural that my opponent also uses as well.

In this case we would both ignore each other and rush to the princess


Ok lets assume in the previous example you advanced and opponent set up catapult. Your opponent feints catapult and you attack it with vulture. Your opponent throws axes. Your next programmed response is to recruit, your opponent loads catapult. You are again stuck in an infinite loop. You can't win unless you break your programming, there is no luck in that instance. Why would your opponent rush to the middle when (s)he can pin you down and guarantee not to lose?

So what is in it for the opponent? It is this instance which I think you miss:

Sure, I forgot this case...but look at progress. The opponent has a loaded catapult and killed one of my units (say, 2 regress for me)...but they have not moved since the start.

Quote:
Meanwhile, my team has done 2 progress. Say, move forward and scouted a region to know whether or not it has the princess. This is again a tie.
And what does your opponent have? If your opponent throws axes/sends rats and you don't recruit you lose. If your opponent fires catapult and you don't attack it you lose. Guess wrong on your next move and it's game over.
 
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Nushura
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simon_j_barnes wrote:

If Team B's Vulture Attacks while Team A fires. End result: We advance by 1 step and they don't.
If Team B's Vulture Scouts while Team A reloads. End result: We advance by 1 step and they don't
If Team B's Vulture Attacks while Team A reloads. End Result: Draw

Sorry, I do not get it. I am team B. All of the outcomes are either good or a tie for team B... So what is bad in me using the strategy?


simon_j_barnes wrote:

Did you notice the one you missed? If you don't want to risk losing why would you ever risk scouting. If your opponent fires when you scout it's game over.

I agree. This is why my strategy does not include scouting when the opponent has a ready catapult.


simon_j_barnes wrote:

Ok lets assume in the previous example you advanced and opponent set up catapult. Your opponent feints catapult and you attack it with vulture. Your opponent throws axes. Your next programmed response is to recruit, your opponent loads catapult.

First of all, my response is not to recruit (I only recruit when I have 1 unit left). Let's fix this by simply:

Turn 1: I advance, they throw axes (I have two units)
Turn 2: I advance, they prepare catapult (I still have two units)
Turn 3: I destroy catapult, they were feinting and threw axes.

Current status, I advanced twice but only have 1 unit.

simon_j_barnes wrote:

You are again stuck in an infinite loop. You can't win unless you break your programming, there is no luck in that instance. Why would your opponent rush to the middle when (s)he can pin you down and guarantee not to lose?

THAT IS MY PROBLEM! We are now stuck in a loop in which neither wants to leave. If he stops attacking I have a shot at winning. If I stop recruiting I have a shot at losing. Why would either of us leave that situation?

And that is the point. A game that leads to such a boring stalemate is ...not a game! And your best response is to just reach a stalemate against my strategy.


simon_j_barnes wrote:

And what does your opponent have? If your opponent throws axes/sends rats and you don't recruit you lose. If your opponent fires catapult and you don't attack it you lose. Guess wrong on your next move and it's game over.

I feel I am repeating myself. You are saying "leave your strategy and you will lose". The answer is simply not to abandon my strategy!
 
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Simon Barnes
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NB I started responding to each point as I read them. Near the end of your reply it became apparent that the answer to your original question "Am I missing something?" is yes. You are not setting up the game correctly. Each side only begins with two soldiers.

I left my responses in as they stood for the sake of completeness.

Nushura wrote:
Sorry, I do not get it. I am team B. All of the outcomes are either good or a tie for team B... So what is bad in me using the strategy?


Quote:
Did you notice the one you missed?
That was the point. So now you reveal that you will never scout. So you can never gain an advantage unless your opponent fires his catapult. Knowing you will never scout your opponent will never fire. You don't win, neither does your opponent.. because they will use axes/rats.

Armed with this "certain" knowledge one of you should be able to make an advantage. Instead of attacking with the vulture you should build barricade/advance knowing your opponent will throw axes/send rats. You now have advantage.

Nushura wrote:

First of all, my response is not to recruit (I only recruit when I have 1 unit left).


Exactly. Try reading it again.

You advanced opponent readied catapult.
You attacked catapult, opponent threw axes.

Game state: You have 1 soldier 1 space forward. Opponent has two soldiers on starting spot. (NB see below, it seems you are not setting up correctly).

Turn 1: I advance, they throw axes (I have two units) No You only have 1
Turn 2: I advance, they prepare catapult (I still have two units) No You only have 1
Turn 3: I destroy catapult, they were feinting and threw axes.

Current status, I advanced twice but only have 1 unit. You lost

Ok I have got your error now. You are playing the game wrong. On Page 3 of the rules:

Quote:
Each clan places its army (comprising 2 of the 3 figurines) on the Forest card on its side of the table. Set each clan’s third figurine aside for the moment; it will possibly be a reinforcement later.


Once you have established that you are setting it wrong we can address any further problems you might have.

Hopefully you will see that a prepared catapult is a game deciding threat to an army comprising less than the full complement of 3.
 
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Nushura
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Aha! there it is! The problem was that we started with 2 units instead of 3. Obviously my strategy fails now, thanks for pointing it out!

I do not see how this solves the issue globally, though. In paper it seems that as soon as you make 1 progress and your opponent does not threaten you (say, both players advance, or one team made a miscommunication) we are in the same deadlock...but it obviously needs to be tested.

Thanks again.
 
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Simon Barnes
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Just don't forget that if the opponent miscommunicates then they have potentially extra options in their next round to mitigate this: The miscommunicated King's card stays out (face up) and they play another King card (face down) on their next turn. So the onus is really on the side with advantage to press it and win.
 
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Nushura
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Hei there

Just a quick mail to let you know that we played the game with the changed starting number of warriors and it made it much more interesting. Eventually the winner was the only team that scouted the good location, but it was certainly a game

Thanks for your help!
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Simon Barnes
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Nushura wrote:
Hei there

Just a quick mail to let you know that we played the game with the changed starting number of warriors and it made it much more interesting. Eventually the winner was the only team that scouted the good location, but it was certainly a game

Thanks for your help!
No problem it's good to hear you enjoyed it. Our copy has arrived so we've managed to play it now. We also found scouting to be important and creating an opening so that you can scout is crucial. I think the fact that the warchief sees the area scouted but the King doesn't is really interesting.
 
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