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CARL SKUTSCH
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Agricola, Sekigahara, Concordia, Innovation, COOKIE!!! (and Guinness)
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C'mon, fes up, who are you people?

For example, Agricola is rated a 3.63 weight. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I call it medium heavy (4) but I could see someone rating it a (3). Medium light (2)? Seriously? Ok, fine, you have a big giant brain and so everything is easy to you. Light?!? What?!?
Yet out of 5355 raters, 58 rated it a "1".

The Gallerist is a 4.28 but out of 270 raters there were 2 who called it a "2".

The new Through the Ages is also 4.28, and out of 305 raters we have 1 "1" and 2 "2"s. Amazing
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Jim Cote
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You might have a different perspective if Advanced Squad Leader, Case Blue, Empire of the Sun or Star Fleet Battles were your norms.
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Quazi Kenshin
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Hmmm, do you suppose they were weighing the box after the components had been removed?
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Stephen Keller
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What's light for some may be heavy for others. Also, what one person refers to as weight may drastically differ from another person's. I see no reason to call out people for having an opinion that differs from the herd.
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ekted wrote:
You might have a different perspective if Advanced Squad Leader, Case Blue, Empire of the Sun or Star Fleet Battles were your norms.

I began gaming life as a wargamer, I know what heavy wargames are like. Sure, my preferred games tended to be more Advanced Third Reich or Empires in Arms, but I've played a few monsters. And I would never consider those games as anything less than heavy. Is Agricola easier than Case Blue? Of course. But wouldn't call it light.

You need some kind of range, hence the weight scale. 1 is for super easy, kids can manage. 2 is for fairly easy, any half-way intelligent adult can manage. 3 is for heavier games, requiring some real brainwork to figure out (most people find it too difficult). 4 is for heavy games, games requiring even experienced players to spend a fair bit of effort to understand and play. 5 is for Case Blue.
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Stephen Keller
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When there's no real agreement on whether "weight" refers to the difficulty of learning the rules or how deep the layers of a game can delve then you really shouldn't be criticizing how individual people rank a game.

On one hand Chess is a 1 (really easy to learn rules) but on the other hand can be a 5 (really tall skill ceiling).
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Derry Salewski
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But someone could easily say that a monster wargame requires one hundred times as much investment as agricola (takes ten minutes to teach) leaving most games a "1."

And you're worried about what, one percent of voters having a different worldview from you?

You'll live, dude.

(I don't think I'd call it more than 1.5... I mean it's not that hard. Mass market games are like 0, fillers .5, light weight euros 1, mediums, 1.5, mediums with lots of rules 2, heavier games 3, big wargames 4, wargames I'll never probably play 5. Monopoly, jaipur, broom service/battlecry, agricola/ hammer of the scots, race for the galaxy/ victory in europe, dominant species/napoleon's triumph, asia englufed, moster things I don't play.)
 
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Michael Debije
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I'd be one of those guys. Agricola is a decent filler.
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K S
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I tend to think of it thusly:
1 - non-gamer party games; things game snobs will want to call "more of an activity than a game
2 - gateway games; things my family and SO will play with me
(2.5 - right around the sweet spot for most of my playgroups)
3 - solidly "gamer's games"; save it for the right crowd.
4 - "OK, I know it looks complicated, but it's really well reviewed, so let's give it a try. Please?"
5 - Not bloody likely
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J C Lawrence
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skutsch wrote:
You need some kind of range, hence the weight scale.


There are games I find interesting and games I don't find interesting. I've no need of a scale for uninteresting games, so I only need a scale for interesting games. Thus on my scale, Age of Steam and 1830: Railways & Robber Barons are light and even fluffy games and 1841 and Go are not.
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Jake Blomquist
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Well, to me it seems like there are a lot of reasons. One thing to remember is that weight isn't actually defined on the site and so those weight ratings can mean whatever you want them to. There is probably a non-zero number of people who have added weight ratings without really knowing what they were saying.

There is also the fact that some people (I've heard a figure of 4-5% quoted) just like to screw with poll type things. I guess you of all people should be aware of this. As evidence I'll mention that as of right now seven people gave Love Letter a weight of 5. I can imagine a person legitimately thinking Agricola deserved a 1 weight (or at least a weight sufficiently less than 2 that they'd enter a 1), but I can't imagine a human who thinks Love Letter deserves a 3, let alone a 5. I could maybe imagine the threes to be people doing something unexpected but with good intentions. I don't see how someone who isn't answering intentionally unhelpfully giving it a 5.

There is also the potential factor of people using 1s to attempt to 'correct' the weight rating in the same way many were using 1s to 'correct' Pandemic Legacy's rating whenever it was that all that nonsense happened.

And we can't forget that for some people it's a symbolic gesture. If it's part of your personal belief structure that Agricola and games like it are as a rule lighter than whatever games you happen to like (I'm being intentionally non-specific in an attempt to not call anyone out) then rating it a 1 is just something you do to live your belief structure.

But of course we also can't ignore that for some people that's their legitimate answer. I think I once heard someone observe that most people use 'medium' to mean 'whatever I happen to be most comfortable with' and that observation rang true to me. There are people who consider 18xx games to land in the 2-3 range (EDIT: see the post directly above mine) and there's really nothing at all wrong with that. It all comes down to a personal scale and how you feel it should be anchored. Which ties back into the fact that there are no concrete guidelines.

Personally, I don't enter weight ratings because they only let you do whole numbers and it's very rate that I'm dealing with a game that I feel is right on one number, though I do have some sympathy toward your perspective in the sense that if I did rate the weights of games I'd try to calibrate my ratings by the average ratings. But I'd definitely say that even given that The Gallerist is at least a half a point too high in my reckoning.
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Christian Gienger
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I thought it was the weight in lbs per player.
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Alexandre P.
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I have not rated any game yet.

And I don't think I consider games as light/heavy but more with a cerebral effort/investment to get into ratio.

And if I had to rate the weight I would struggle to make the distinction between learning and mastering and I would prefer to rate games as :
- easy to learn and to play quite well,
- easy to learn and harder to play well,
- hard to learn but easy to play well,
- hard to learn and hard to play well.
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Adrian Schmidt
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skutsch wrote:
C'mon, fes up, who are you people?

For example, Agricola is rated a 3.63 weight. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I call it medium heavy (4) but I could see someone rating it a (3). Medium light (2)? Seriously? Ok, fine, you have a big giant brain and so everything is easy to you. Light?!? What?!?
Yet out of 5355 raters, 58 rated it a "1".

The Gallerist is a 4.28 but out of 270 raters there were 2 who called it a "2".

The new Through the Ages is also 4.28, and out of 305 raters we have 1 "1" and 2 "2"s. Amazing


A few people are probably troll-voting, but most just have a different idea of weight, as discussed by loads of comments already.

But, the reason for me to comment, is that I'd like to point out that there is a vote for a reason. If everyone agreed on the weight of a particular game, there would be no reason to have a vote. Someone could just set a number. I think these votes are very interesting, and I think the outliers provide great supplementary info. In fact, this piqued my interest. I think it would be pretty cool to make box plots (http://www.statisticshowto.com/how-to-read-a-box-plot/) for different games in similar categories…

Does anyone know of a good prebuilt BGG scraper? Otherwise I'll have to build me one…
 
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jblomquist wrote:
Well, to me it seems like there are a lot of reasons. One thing to remember is that weight isn't actually defined on the site and so those weight ratings can mean whatever you want them to. There is probably a non-zero number of people who have added weight ratings without really knowing what they were saying.

Agreed.

jblomquist wrote:
There is also the fact that some people (I've heard a figure of 4-5% quoted) just like to screw with poll type things. I guess you of all people should be aware of this.

Wait, what?!? People are dishonest on polls?!?!? :shake:

jblomquist wrote:
As evidence I'll mention that as of right now seven people gave Love Letter a weight of 5. I can imagine a person legitimately thinking Agricola deserved a 1 weight (or at least a weight sufficiently less than 2 that they'd enter a 1), but I can't imagine a human who thinks Love Letter deserves a 3, let alone a 5. I could maybe imagine the threes to be people doing something unexpected but with good intentions. I don't see how someone who isn't answering intentionally unhelpfully giving it a 5.

Perhaps that's an even better example than mine.
Another example, 3 people give Coup a "5".

jblomquist wrote:
There is also the potential factor of people using 1s to attempt to 'correct' the weight rating in the same way many were using 1s to 'correct' Pandemic Legacy's rating whenever it was that all that nonsense happened.

Most sane reason I can think of (and I hadn't thought of that reason).

jblomquist wrote:
And we can't forget that for some people it's a symbolic gesture. If it's part of your personal belief structure that Agricola and games like it are as a rule lighter than whatever games you happen to like (I'm being intentionally non-specific in an attempt to not call anyone out) then rating it a 1 is just something you do to live your belief structure.

So it's a religious thing, got it.

jblomquist wrote:
But of course we also can't ignore that for some people that's their legitimate answer. I think I once heard someone observe that most people use 'medium' to mean 'whatever I happen to be most comfortable with' and that observation rang true to me. There are people who consider 18xx games to land in the 2-3 range (EDIT: see the post directly above mine) and there's really nothing at all wrong with that. It all comes down to a personal scale and how you feel it should be anchored. Which ties back into the fact that there are no concrete guidelines.

But if you consider 18xx games, or Case Blue, to be 2-3, what's a 5? (Chess or Go?)

jblomquist wrote:
Personally, I don't enter weight ratings because they only let you do whole numbers and it's very rate that I'm dealing with a game that I feel is right on one number, though I do have some sympathy toward your perspective in the sense that if I did rate the weights of games I'd try to calibrate my ratings by the average ratings. But I'd definitely say that even given that The Gallerist is at least a half a point too high in my reckoning.

Your brain is too large! Although maybe my view will change with more plays and practice.
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CARL SKUTSCH
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Locu wrote:
I thought it was the weight in lbs per player.

x100 maybe.
 
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Look on my works ye mighty and despair
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Synnical77 wrote:

On one hand Chess is a 1 (really easy to learn rules) but on the other hand can be a 5 (really tall skill ceiling).


While it's not massively complex, Chess's rules aren't as simple as people think. Different moves for all the pieces, plus special rules for things like Castling.

There I think it's mostly that we all know the rules because of cultural norms.
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Synnical77 wrote:
On one hand Chess is a 1 (really easy to learn rules) but on the other hand can be a 5 (really tall skill ceiling).

My favorite example of this is how Chess is rated 3.75, but Knightmare Chess , which is a strictly more complicated game because it literally just adds extra rules on top of the normal Chess rules set, is rated 2.75, presumably because those ratings are reflecting a perceived difference in strategic depth.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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I'm not a hex & counter wargamer at all, but I don't think Agricola is anything more than medium at most.

Compared to even minis wargaming and CCG's Agricola is light-medium. I'd call it 2.5
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CARL SKUTSCH
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Kelanen wrote:
I'm not a hex & counter wargamer at all, but I don't think Agricola is anything more than medium at most.

Compared to even minis wargaming and CCG's Agricola is light-medium. I'd call it 2.5

But not a 1.
 
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Erik G
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Interesting discussion. Some people already point out that you need difference, otherwise there is no need to vote. So there must be 1s and 5s, also for simple games.

However, the other side is also true: for the bigger games we are talking large numbers. Which means that these outliers are filtered out. The actual weight is probably pretty accurate to what the big mass thinks.
So, why worry?


A different point: it seems that people find heavier games better. See also this topic: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1679173/heavy-games-snobbis...

This will lead to finding all games but the ones they play less heavy.
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Anarchists, whose sole intent is to fuck up the lives of those with rating's OCD.
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Kathleen Nugent
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I have a feeling that those who jokingly mentioned pounds/stones as a judge of game weight actually have a point. If I pick up a small card game box, I'm much more inclined to think that it's going to be an easy game. But if I pick up a big heavy box I tend to assume the game is going to be complicated and harder.

Another point: I wish there were a .5 game weight in addition to the 1 - 5 scale. It's hard to equate games like Qwixx or Monopoly Deal Card Game with other games I would call light; e.g. Jambo or Qwirkle.
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Adrian Schmidt
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EllenCaroline wrote:
I have a feeling that those who jokingly mentioned pounds/stones as a judge of game weight actually have a point. If I pick up a small card game box, I'm much more inclined to think that it's going to be an easy game. But if I pick up a big heavy box I tend to assume the game is going to be complicated and harder.


I have a feeling that is part of why Agricola and Caverna are rated so heavy. Also, I think it might be common that Agricola is the heaviest game a person has ever played, and so, they assume it must be a 4 or 5.

Lots of components does not a heavy game make, imho
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Jim Cote
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skutsch wrote:
You need some kind of range, hence the weight scale. 1 is for super easy, kids can manage. 2 is for fairly easy, any half-way intelligent adult can manage. 3 is for heavier games, requiring some real brainwork to figure out (most people find it too difficult). 4 is for heavy games, games requiring even experienced players to spend a fair bit of effort to understand and play. 5 is for Case Blue.

To make the 1-5 weight scale work across all the games on BGG and not compress all non-super-heavy games into a tiny sliver, you'd have to make the scale logarithmic (e.g. 2 is 10x as heavy as 1, 3 is 10x as heavy as 2, etc). That may be how some view it already. But I suspect most people are simply unfamiliar with heavy games, so they rate games like Through the Ages, Terra Mystica, and Puerto Rico as heavy because they are well known.
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