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Subject: Ogre club weapon length poll rss

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GodRob
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"First rule of Ogre Club: don't talk about Ogre Club."

In all editions of Magic Realm, the Ogre is listed as having a weapon length of 0 (tooth/claw) but still able to be targeted by the Poison spell. Many of us think that this is an error and that they should have a weapon length of more than 0, just like the goblins, giants, and natives that all have weapon lengths greater than 0 and are eligible targets of the poison spell.

Having a weapon length longer than 0 not only makes them more dangerous during the first round of combat but it also makes them more dangerous if you have an attack speed of 5.


Since the Giant's club has a length of 8, the Ogre's club should probably be shorter and that's where I'm limiting the poll

Poll
What do you think the Weapon Length for the Ogre should be?
0 That's what the rules say! (same as a dagger, tooth/claw)
1 Short (same as a mace)
2 Short (same as an axe)
3 Short (same as a shortsword)
4 Medium (same as a thrusting sword)
5 Long (same as a great axe)
6 Long (same as a morningstar)
7 Long (same as a broadsword)
      21 answers
Poll created by robertg611

Poll
Not enough choices
8 same as Great Sword, Giant's Club
9 same as Staff, Dragon head
10 same as Spear
11+ same as Missile Weapons and spells
      0 answers
Poll created by robertg611


If you don't have it memorized yet, here's a list of the weapon lengths:
0 Dagger (Fight chit), tooth/claw (monster)
1 Mace
2 Axe
3 Short Sword
4 Thrusting Sword
5 Great Axe
6 Morning Star
7 Broadsword, Flying Dragon Head
8 Great Sword, Giant's Club
9 Staff, Dragon Head
10 Spear
11 Alchemist’s Mixture
12 Crossbow
13 Fiery Blast (Spell), Flying Dragon Head (Fire Breathing)
14 Light Bow
15 Dragon Head (Fire Breathing), Stones Fly (Spell)
16 Medium Bow
17 Demon or Imp (Spell)
18 Lightning Bolt (Spell), Roof Collapses (Spell)

Got a reason for your choice? Share it!
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Steve Schacher

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I voted 7.

Here's why.

How large is the ogre relative to other denizens? Weapon length is more than just the weapon, it can also be the reach of the denizen who wields it.

Looking at the medium monsters, I see the sword goblins have a weapon length of 8, same as the giant's club. Is the ogre larger than a goblin? Is the club smaller than the goblin's great sword? Should they net out?

The sword goblin has an attack of T5, the same as the ogre. However, its alternate attack is H6 whereas the ogre's alternate attack is H5. Is this because the club is lighter than the great sword, or the reach of the ogre is longer than the goblin?

The next goblin is the axe goblin with a length of 2, and the spear goblin with a length of 10, so the ogre should be somewhere between these two.

The knight is next closes with an attack of H6, which matches the sword goblin and has a length of 7. The ogre is slightly faster, perhaps because of its size, so it should probably have the same length as the knight.

If you cut off the voting to less than the giant with club (8), then I went one down from that and voted 7.

Steve
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Serious Gamer
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srschacher wrote:
I voted 7.

Here's why.

How large is the ogre relative to other denizens? Weapon length is more than just the weapon, it can also be the reach of the denizen who wields it.

Looking at the medium monsters, I see the sword goblins have a weapon length of 8, same as the giant's club. Is the ogre larger than a goblin? Is the club smaller than the goblin's great sword? Should they net out?

The sword goblin has an attack of T5, the same as the ogre. However, its alternate attack is H6 whereas the ogre's alternate attack is H5. Is this because the club is lighter than the great sword, or the reach of the ogre is longer than the goblin?


You should also notice the move difference.

Goblin w/Great Sword:
H6*/3 light side
T5*/5 colored side

Ogre:
T5/5 light side
H5/4 colored side

Giant's Club:
H6 light side
T4 colored side

The goblin is willing to hit slower in order to move faster. Ogre attacks faster on average, goblin moves faster on average. Both are capable of dealing H and T damage and thus hold an H weapon.

H6/3 -> H5/4 -> H4/5
T6/4 -> T5/5 -> T4->6

Theoretically, they potentially have the same capabilities, but choose to attack/maneuver at different ratios (and to ensure the two chits aren't that similar).

And consider that this is a different weapon the Ogre is wielding, a weapon that has no sharpness stars (initially). There's only 3 weapons sold by natives that are like that: the Mace, Morning Star, and Staff (which is longer than both the Giant's Club and the Great Sword). But even then, we have to consider that the weapon the Ogre is wielding is different from any of those, and thus would have it's own semi-unique stats.


srschacher wrote:
The next goblin is the axe goblin with a length of 2, and the spear goblin with a length of 10, so the ogre should be somewhere between these two.


I disagree. I don't see how that's sufficient grounds to determine that the Ogre's club should be anywhere between the two, or less, or greater (ok maybe not greater because we would be approaching bow territory). For all we know the club could be any of those lengths and still be capable of dealing H or T damage.


srschacher wrote:
The knight is next closes with an attack of H6, which matches the sword goblin and has a length of 7. The ogre is slightly faster, perhaps because of its size, so it should probably have the same length as the knight.


Size, and potentially due to wearing less armor. The Ogre has no armor, and is of lesser size than the White Knight.


srschacher wrote:
If you cut off the voting to less than the giant with club (8), then I went one down from that and voted 7.

Steve


Personally, I voted for length 1, just because it's the safest stance to take at the moment which doesn't change the Ogre up drastically, yet still signifies he holds a club that's about the size of a Mace, only heavier. Plus you have to consider why it is the Ogre was given a length of 0 in the first place.
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Steve Schacher

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gexthegecko wrote:
srschacher wrote:

[q="srschacher"]The next goblin is the axe goblin with a length of 2, and the spear goblin with a length of 10, so the ogre should be somewhere between these two.


I disagree. I don't see how that's sufficient grounds to determine that the Ogre's club should be anywhere between the two, or less, or greater (ok maybe not greater because we would be approaching bow territory). For all we know the club could be any of those lengths and still be capable of dealing H or T damage.


My reasoning was simple: If the ogre is roughly the same size as the goblin (may a wee bit larger), then the club cannot be longer than the spear, and should be longer than the axe. There is a built-in given in this poll that the weapon is not larger than the giant's club (8), so I was working within that boundary. I attributed the difference in arm reach, and assumed that an ogre wouldn't be able to wield as large a club as the giant, so I settled on 7 (a match for the knight).

Steve
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GodRob
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The ogre may have a length of 0 because he just doesn't fight well with the club. He may grab his opponent with his free hand (length 0) and then smash him with the club.

Or maybe he tries to hit you with the short end that he's holding.

Or maybe he chokes up really far on the club before using it (like every actor who has to hammer a nail in a movie.)

I'm still undecided...
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GodRob
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srschacher wrote:
gexthegecko wrote:
srschacher wrote:

[q="srschacher"]The next goblin is the axe goblin with a length of 2, and the spear goblin with a length of 10, so the ogre should be somewhere between these two.


I disagree. I don't see how that's sufficient grounds to determine that the Ogre's club should be anywhere between the two, or less, or greater (ok maybe not greater because we would be approaching bow territory). For all we know the club could be any of those lengths and still be capable of dealing H or T damage.


My reasoning was simple: If the ogre is roughly the same size as the goblin (may a wee bit larger), then the club cannot be longer than the spear, and should be longer than the axe. There is a built-in given in this poll that the weapon is not larger than the giant's club (8), so I was working within that boundary. I attributed the difference in arm reach, and assumed that an ogre wouldn't be able to wield as large a club as the giant, so I settled on 7 (a match for the knight).

Steve


Do you think lengths greater than 7 should be an option?
 
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Steve Schacher

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Not if the Giant is an 8. The Ogre should be smaller than the Giant, so his reach should be less than the Giant.

I also think of it this way. The "club" can either be a large tree branch or a bone. The Giant might be using the femur from a Tremendous Dragon (or another Giant), while the Ogre might be using the femur from a Heavy Dragon (or another Ogre). Alternatively, the Giant might be using a tree trunk while the Ogre might be using a large branch.

Steve
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srschacher wrote:
My reasoning was simple: If the ogre is roughly the same size as the goblin (may a wee bit larger), then the club cannot be longer than the spear, and should be longer than the axe. There is a built-in given in this poll that the weapon is not larger than the giant's club (8), so I was working within that boundary. I attributed the difference in arm reach, and assumed that an ogre wouldn't be able to wield as large a club as the giant, so I settled on 7 (a match for the knight).

Steve


I understand your reasoning, I just don't think it's substantial enough, especially when I think it's been proven that you can't attribute the difference in arm reach to determine the length of a weapon on a denizen. All the goblins arguably have the same arm reach regardless of the weapons they carry. The Giant arguably has a longer arm reach than any denizen with a weapon, yet anyone with a staff has a longer reach than him, even if they're of light weight/vulnerability.

So because arm reach can't be reliably used to determine weapon length, 7 might not be the best option. That's why I chose 1. It might not be the right option (we'll never know for sure the right option without Richard Hamblen's input), but it is the safest bet since it's the smallest increase from 0 possible. Besides, it's also an argument for variety. How many denizens have a weapon length of 1?
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Quantum Jack
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weapon length of 1 just means they are not viable targets for Black Knight, but everyone else remains unchanged (unless they pick up a mace).

for what its worth, i picked 5. shorter than morning star, longer than thrusting sword. dwarf and berserker usually don't seek combat with them.
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GodRob
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Quantum_Jack wrote:
weapon length of 1 just means they are not viable targets for Black Knight, but everyone else remains unchanged (unless they pick up a mace).

for what its worth, i picked 5. shorter than morning star, longer than thrusting sword. dwarf and berserker usually don't seek combat with them.


Most of the analysis below assumes the first round of combat where weapon length is almost always a factor.

Weapon length of 1 would make them more dangerous against any character using a dagger, which includes about half of the characters. If you're hiring them with a persuade spell, then they'll be more effective against tooth & claw monsters despite their slow speed.

They would still be viable targets for the Black Knight as his medium attack is faster than 5 with little effort or 3 with an alerted mace.

Weapon length of 2 really doesn't change much except that they would strike before a mace wielding character in the first round.

Weapon length of 3 is better than hand axes. No one starts with one but it is a common (and cheap) upgrade for the Captain, Amazon, or Black Knight. Sometimes even the Pilgrim or Wizard too. This would also make them slightly more effective against the axe goblins, but they're going to need some more help vs six of them.

Weapon length of 4 is better than short swords and that gives them an advantage against the Captain and Amazon right from the start. They may even cause the Swordsman a little trouble. If they are hired, then they are going to be slightly more effective against a few natives (short swordsman, swordsmen, assassins, bashkars).

Weapon length of 5 is better than thrusting swords and the equal of great axes. Now it's really starting to matter because the slower characters may have no choice but attack with a speed of 5. Maybe they're a little wounded or fatigued and can't run away. The Dwarf can't even run away from them fully healthy so getting caught by two ogres is likely death instead of one possible wound and a lost helmet.

Weapon length of 6 is longer than great axes but this just makes them a little more deadlier for the Dwarf. The Berserker would probably want to run away at this point. If the White Knight scored the ball and chain then he might not want to go up against these two now.

Weapon length of 7 is longer than the morningstar and the equal of broadswords. Maybe you could hire the two ogres to go after a member of the Order?

What does all this mean? Anything from 1 to 4 isn't really different. Anything from 5 to 7 just makes them a little more difficult for the heavy characters. In any encounter where a character is hidden then the length of the club doesn't matter at all.

Based on all of that useless info, I've arbitrarily decided on 5!
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Brent Pollock
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I would like to change my vote from 5 to 7.

EDIT - done, as per pointer given below - THANKS!
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GodRob
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WBRP wrote:
I would like to change my vote from 5 to 7.


If you click on "Questions" right below the first poll you can change your vote.
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