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Glorantha: The Gods War» Forums » Rules

Subject: Insurgency; Arthur Petersen vs. PnP rss

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Mark Mohrfield
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This just came up in the play-by-forum game I'm in. In an earlier thread, Arthur Petersen wrote

existoid wrote:
SpectrumDT wrote:
The Storm Gift "Insurgency" can turn an enemy building into a Temple during Conquest - even if it is a Chaos Nest.

What if there is already another building in the area with the Chaos Nest (be it my own building or someone else's)? Can I still Conquer the Chaos Nest and turn it into a Temple?


No. Only Chaos Nests can be in an area with another building. So, if there is already another building, and you Battle Chaos, you must destroy the Chaos Nest.


However, on page 25 the PnP rules states:
Quote:
Q. If two non-Chaos players have buildings in an area, due to Insurgency, or some Rune or other ability, can Chaos build a Chaos Nest there?
A. No, since it can only be built in an area containing “one player’s building”.



So whlich is correct?
 
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Arthur Petersen
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Mark Mohrfield wrote:
This just came up in the play-by-forum game I'm in. In an earlier thread, Arthur Petersen wrote

existoid wrote:
SpectrumDT wrote:
The Storm Gift "Insurgency" can turn an enemy building into a Temple during Conquest - even if it is a Chaos Nest.

What if there is already another building in the area with the Chaos Nest (be it my own building or someone else's)? Can I still Conquer the Chaos Nest and turn it into a Temple?


No. Only Chaos Nests can be in an area with another building. So, if there is already another building, and you Battle Chaos, you must destroy the Chaos Nest.


However, on page 25 the PnP rules states:
Quote:
Q. If two non-Chaos players have buildings in an area, due to Insurgency, or some Rune or other ability, can Chaos build a Chaos Nest there?
A. No, since it can only be built in an area containing “one player’s building”.



So whlich is correct?


I am correct. The wording of that Q in the PnP FAQ is poorly written, so much that I'm not even sure what the Q is trying to "ask."

The rule that each Area may have a single building is only ever broken by Chaos.

Insurgency does not allow you to have more than one building in an Area, it only modifies how Conquer works. Normally conquer only allows you to replace like with like, which means no one can ever conquer a Chaos Nest. That's why Insurgency is so useful!

This has been the case since very very early versions of the game, and has never changed - the one building per Area rule is identical (and likely derived from) the one Gate per Area rule in CW. And, like CW's Yog-Sothoth, there are occasional things that break it, but Insurgency is not one of them - only Chaos is.
 
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Pekka S
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existoid wrote:
The rule that each Area may have a single building is only ever broken by Chaos.


I think the problem is buried here somewhere. I don't know about other people but I tend to think about the rules of a boardgame as some kind of state transitions from one legal game state to another. Meaning that as long as you move between states using only legal transitions, you never end up in an illegal game state. Thus I read this: "the rule that each Area may have a single building is only ever broken by Chaos" as: "the rule preventing a state transition to a state with an area containing more than one building is only ever broken by Chaos".

Furthermore, it is clear, that "only one building per area" is not an illegal game state, because Chaos is allowed to move from a state with one building in an area to a state with two buildings. It is also clear that a state in which there can be two non-Chaos buildings in one area is also not an illegal state, because you can use the Change rune to switch the Chaos nest with something else.

When you know these facts, it is very easy to think that using Insurgency to replace a Chaos nest with a Strom temple is also allowed, because it clearly not moves the game to an illegal state. Or if the Change rune has been used to transform the nest to something else, to conquer one of the buildings to make it your own (with normal conquest or Insurgency). If these state transitions are not allowed, I do not think it is very well stated in the rules.
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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If (and I also think of this in terms of states, though possibly not identically) you've defined a meta-rule, about occupancy by buildings, first define that meta-rule carefully. Is it that allowable states are:
No buildings
One building
One non-Chaos building and one Chaos nest
?
Or are there other cases?

Then look at all cases that building transitions can happen. Build, destroy, replace, what else? Does each maintain the meta-rule (invariant in another terminology)? First, conceptually (if you have two buildings and try to replace one then what?) Then in easy to understand words in the rules.

No, I'm not claiming it's easy. I've done my share of proofreading and thinking through these things (I've got some rulebook credits for some of them) to know both how I've found things to fix and missed things myself, neither of which would happen if it were easy. (I hope the former significantly exceeds the latter.)

But this one's been flagged up, so it ought to be not too hard to get right. It's the other ones that no one has spotted that are harder.
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Peter Bowie
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There's one allowable state: One building per area.

Special effects always overrule the rules as written. So Chaos Nest's ability supersedes the one in the rulebook that states 1 building per area. Insurgency doesn't have this special rule, so you can't replace a Chaos Nest with it that's in an area with another building, as that would create an illegal game state.

I feel like the most confusion comes from mentioning Chaos Nests on Insurgency, as there's no rule to indicate you wouldn't be able to replace Chaos Nests in a single area (as Chaos Nests aren't unconquerable, they just usually can't be replaced with a like building. Insurgency avoids this limitation).
 
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Pekka S
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Hm, maybe then the description of Conquest is the problem here. It says:

Quote:
For Conquest to occur, one combatant must have one or more Units remain in the Battle Area while his enemy has only a lone Building --


...which might sound like the possible other building owned by another player does not count. Maybe it should be explicitly mentioned, that if two buildings co-exists in an area, only Destruction is possible (and therefore Insurgency also can't be used, as it requires Conquest)? Or at least mention it in the FAQ?

I'm just trying say, that if I can understand the rules incorrectly, someone else might also do that.
 
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Graham Robinson
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spequlator wrote:
if two buildings co-exists in an area, only Destruction is possible


Except that this isn't the case. Darkness CAN conquer a Storm building, even if there is also a Chaos Nest in the same location.

The rules in the PnP are (as far as I can make out...):

Only one building can ever be in a location, EXCEPT:

A Chaos Nest can be in the same location as any other building type.
As the result of the Change Rune used on a Chaos Nest. (Explicit FAQ.)
And, as a result of Insurgency. (Implicit FAQ.)

Arthur has stated that the last is a mistake, and the wording will be tightened in the finished rules.

Cheers,
Graham
 
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Pekka S
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therealbuserian wrote:
spequlator wrote:
if two buildings co-exists in an area, only Destruction is possible


Except that this isn't the case. Darkness CAN conquer a Storm building, even if there is also a Chaos Nest in the same location.



Uh, that is true, of course. I don't know what I was thinking when I typed that. Maybe nothing. Or maybe I'm overthinking this whole issue.

Well, as long as the final rules make it clear for me and other players, I'm happy! Thank you and sorry, everyone!
 
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Adam Starks
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What about if someone does use the Change rune to turn a Chaos Nest into a building, and there are now 2? In that case, could Insurgency be used for either building?
 
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Graham Robinson
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AdamStarks wrote:
What about if someone does use the Change rune to turn a Chaos Nest into a building, and there are now 2? In that case, could Insurgency be used for either building?


Worse than that...

It isn't clear whether they can be conquered at all. And if both belong to the same Empire, are they immune to destruction too, as neither would be a "lone building"? In the last case, if you can conquer or destroy, can you "get" both buildings in a single battle?

(To my mind, the answers are, yes they can; no they aren't; and, only one per battle - but I initially thought Insurgency let you place two buildings in the same area, so what do I know?)

Cheers,
Graham
 
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Lincoln Petersen
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If there are 2 buildings in an area via the Change rune. Then what happens when you "conquer" an enemy building is that you can't because there is already a building there so you just destroy it.
 
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Guillaume Andriot
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So tu summarize:

There can only be 1 building in a region.

-Chaos Nests are an exception to this rule.
-The Change rune can bypass this rule.
-The Insurgency gift cannot be used if it would contradict this rule.

Or in other words, only the change rune can create a normaly invalid placement. Insurgency cannot. Any effect that would modify the exceptional placement caused by the change rune has to follow the normal rules.

Did I get this right ?

So what about Earth Quake gift then ?
Does "swapping" count as placing a building ?
If yes then you can't swap an earth building that has been stuck with another (non-nest!) building by the change rune. If no, then Quake is an exception to the change rune exceptions. laugh

Is it too late to maybe reword the change rune into something a bit less confusing ?
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Lincoln Petersen
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The Earthquake gift if I remember correctly still only allows 1 "real" building per area.
 
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