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Subject: Abuse white planets? rss

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Godistjuven
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Is it possible?

Use the Influence action and put an Influence disc on a hex with a white planet. Then put a population cube from the money track on the planet. You are allowed to move 2 Influence discs, so take the disc from the hex back and thereby also returning the population cube. Instead of putting it back on money track you put it on for example material track.

Repeat this a few times and you will have a huge money income (but less material)
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Yes, it is legal. Although I wouldn't call it abuse but rather a feature.
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neko flying
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There is a technique to achieve the same effect but does not require an action to do it, just a spare ship and tactical bankruptcy:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/832483/grey-planet-hopping-...

Even like this, it is not really abusing the system and, it is generally not worth the hassle.
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Wim van Gruisen
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In my last game of Eclipse, I forgot to do this the other way round. Playing Orion, I got a bit of slow start because I had to clear away ancients and double ancients, but I got the center in round 4 or 5. Got a lot of economy thanks to Advanced Economics and lots of orange planets with a mark in them, but not enough materials or science production.

I should have used the Influence action to shift my economy production to materials and science, with the white planets in the centre, and had planned to do so, but forgot it when it was my turn.
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Peter Bakija
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Godistjuven wrote:
Use the Influence action and put an Influence disc on a hex with a white planet. Then put a population cube from the money track on the planet. You are allowed to move 2 Influence discs, so take the disc from the hex back and thereby also returning the population cube. Instead of putting it back on money track you put it on for example material track.


Sure. But you aren't coming out *ahead* at all, due to when income happens. So you are using actions to push your economic factors around, but in the end, you are still making about the same amount of total stuff on a given turn.

Let's say you have a system that has a gray planet it it. You originally put a pink/science cube on it.

You currently have 6 money production and 6 science production (12 total resources between those two tracks). You want to change that. You use an Influence action to pick up the disc on that system, put the pink cube back on your science track (dropping science to 4 production). You then use the Influence action to put your disc back on the system, and use a colony ship to put an orange/money cube on the gray planet (increasing money to 8 production). You now have 8 money production and 4 science production. Still 12 total resources between those tracks. And used an action to do this. Once and a while, this will be important to be able to do. But most of the time, it probably isn't gonna be worth the effort.

Yeah, in a few places on the track, you can gain a minor increase in total production--if, say, you do this to change, like, 12 science and 12 money into 15 science and 10 money (increasing your total production by a net of +1) or 24/24 into 28/21 (also a net gain of +1), but then you are still spending an action to do this, and it is unclear if spending an action to gain a +1 to total production is a super good plan (although, like, doing this to make sure you have exactly enough science on the next turn to get something you need is certainly a reasonable plan).

Quote:
Repeat this a few times and you will have a huge money income (but less material)


Yeah, I think you are probably overestimating the benefit this provides. I mean, like, it is certainly a handy ability when it is useful, but hardly a huge leg up or anything.
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neko flying
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Sorry, wrong link!

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/832483/grey-planet-hopping-...
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Peter Bakija
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flying_neko wrote:


Yeah, that is indeed super clever, and can get you ahead in terms of total resource production, but requires a lot of setup and lucky situations (i.e. an empty system that has a gray planet/orbital that isn't taken over by your neighbor *and* also tactical bankruptcy *and* also an unused ship moved into the hex...). So likely not worth worrying about most of the time :-)
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neko flying
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I agree. I think that it is mostly useful to check whether one understands a few subtle rules and strategies in Eclipse. At least it was my main goal back when I posted it.

This actual combination of tricks is unlikely to come up in practice.

Nevertheless, I thought it useful to point it out to OP to say "look, there are even more efficient ways to exploit White Planets... and those do not break the game either :)
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Godistjuven
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flying_neko wrote:


That's an even better strategy!

Many of you say the profit is not that big since ju just shuffle around the money/science/material tracks, but I believe that with a huge money income early game you can afford to colonize a lot of extra planets. These planets may give you the extra science/material production you lost due to the strategy above, so towards mid-game or end-game you will control more hexes, have more money but about the same material/science as other players. I guess the only way to find out if it works is to try it myself

However, this strategy is not the slightest thematic! Gaining wealth by colonizing whole planets just to abandon them right after and then colonizing them again and so on...
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Chris K.
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Godistjuven wrote:
flying_neko wrote:


That's an even better strategy!

Many of you say the profit is not that big since ju just shuffle around the money/science/material tracks, but I believe that with a huge money income early game you can afford to colonize a lot of extra planets. These planets may give you the extra science/material production you lost due to the strategy above, so towards mid-game or end-game you will control more hexes, have more money but about the same material/science as other players. I guess the only way to find out if it works is to try it myself

However, this strategy is not the slightest thematic! Gaining wealth by colonizing whole planets just to abandon them right after and then colonizing them again and so on...


You can always find a thematic explanation in a game as abstract as this. See the actions required and their attached monetary cost as a representation of the investments necessary to remodel the industrial capabilities of the planets which then results in the changes of outcome you see. Apparently the white planets are so abundantly filled with various nearly universally appliable resources that what you use them for is really only based on what infrastructure you implement.

Or fall back to my favorite thematic explanation:
The situation of the board is NOT what is really happening in the universe. It is what everyone's intelligence agencies BELIEF is currently happening in the universe and any apparent "impossibilities" are merely errors in their previous assumptions and information.

And the fewer Actions the opposition has remaining the more "sure" can you be that the situation is really as it currently is.
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Peter Bakija
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Godistjuven wrote:
Many of you say the profit is not that big since ju just shuffle around the money/science/material tracks, but I believe that with a huge money income early game you can afford to colonize a lot of extra planets.


I guess I don't understand what you are thinking is happening here? If you have a bunch of gray planets, you can *already* just make them orange/money planets and maximize your money production without the Influence shenanagins. How are you seeing this as giving you *more* money than you could already have?

Quote:
These planets may give you the extra science/material production you lost due to the strategy above, so towards mid-game or end-game you will control more hexes, have more money but about the same material/science as other players.


Sure. Early in the game, you can make all (two? three?) the gray planets money, and then fall behind on science/materials, and then later in the game, turn your gray money planets into science or material planets, and then you fall behind on actions, but start catching up on science and materials? Again, you aren't really gaining anything overall.
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Godistjuven
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bakija wrote:
Godistjuven wrote:
Many of you say the profit is not that big since ju just shuffle around the money/science/material tracks, but I believe that with a huge money income early game you can afford to colonize a lot of extra planets.


I guess I don't understand what you are thinking is happening here? If you have a bunch of gray planets, you can *already* just make them orange/money planets and maximize your money production without the Influence shenanagins. How are you seeing this as giving you *more* money than you could already have?


I'm thinking doing the following move with a pop cube:
money track --> white planet --> material track
Repeat this and your money track will be almost empty (therefore a huge money income). This will give you more money than you could have normally. I hope I understood you correctly.

So technically one gray planet could give you for example +4 steps on money track and -3 steps on the other tracks (if you leave one money pop cube on the planet)
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Chris K.
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Godistjuven wrote:
bakija wrote:
Godistjuven wrote:
Many of you say the profit is not that big since ju just shuffle around the money/science/material tracks, but I believe that with a huge money income early game you can afford to colonize a lot of extra planets.


I guess I don't understand what you are thinking is happening here? If you have a bunch of gray planets, you can *already* just make them orange/money planets and maximize your money production without the Influence shenanagins. How are you seeing this as giving you *more* money than you could already have?


I'm thinking doing the following move with a pop cube:
money track --> white planet --> material track
Repeat this and your money track will be almost empty (therefore a huge money income). This will give you more money than you could have normally. I hope I understood you correctly.

So technically one gray planet could give you for example +4 steps on money track and -3 steps on the other tracks (if you leave one money pop cube on the planet)


Yes, that is possible and correct. But, unless you are Terran with their 2:1 exchange quota, that is usually a very bad idea. You still need sufficient production in the other resources for a meaningful game and trading for it is only efficient at certain rates.
For Terrans this is if the "next" money cube gets you at least 2 money and the material cube you sacrifice for it only gives you 1 additional material.

So if you only have 2 Material cubes (producing 4) and at least 2 money cubes(producing 4), then you effectively break even, albeit more flexible by switching it to 4 money slots (producing 8) and no Material (producing 2) instead.

Most non-Terran species only break even if they start with 6 open money slots (producing 12). For Terrans this is the area where they would start making net total gains.

If you have at least 3 Material cubes, then you only break even doing the trick for the very last money cube and even then only if you are Terran.

At all other combinations, the trick results in a net loss of total available resources. And it costs you actions to do that on top.

That's why most people say that generally it is all by itself not a good idea.
(Obvious caveat: Except for when it is a good idea, like when that extra money allows you to hold a system with 2+ planets that you otherwise wouldn't be able to hold or it allows you that extra final action that creates a bunch of victory points)
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Godistjuven
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chrisdk wrote:
Godistjuven wrote:
bakija wrote:
Godistjuven wrote:
Many of you say the profit is not that big since ju just shuffle around the money/science/material tracks, but I believe that with a huge money income early game you can afford to colonize a lot of extra planets.


I guess I don't understand what you are thinking is happening here? If you have a bunch of gray planets, you can *already* just make them orange/money planets and maximize your money production without the Influence shenanagins. How are you seeing this as giving you *more* money than you could already have?


I'm thinking doing the following move with a pop cube:
money track --> white planet --> material track
Repeat this and your money track will be almost empty (therefore a huge money income). This will give you more money than you could have normally. I hope I understood you correctly.

So technically one gray planet could give you for example +4 steps on money track and -3 steps on the other tracks (if you leave one money pop cube on the planet)


Yes, that is possible and correct. But, unless you are Terran with their 2:1 exchange quota, that is usually a very bad idea. You still need sufficient production in the other resources for a meaningful game and trading for it is only efficient at certain rates.
For Terrans this is if the "next" money cube gets you at least 2 money and the material cube you sacrifice for it only gives you 1 additional material.

So if you only have 2 Material cubes (producing 4) and at least 2 money cubes(producing 4), then you effectively break even, albeit more flexible by switching it to 4 money slots (producing 8) and no Material (producing 2) instead.

Most non-Terran species only break even if they start with 6 open money slots (producing 12). For Terrans this is the area where they would start making net total gains.

If you have at least 3 Material cubes, then you only break even doing the trick for the very last money cube and even then only if you are Terran.

At all other combinations, the trick results in a net loss of total available resources. And it costs you actions to do that on top.

That's why most people say that generally it is all by itself not a good idea.
(Obvious caveat: Except for when it is a good idea, like when that extra money allows you to hold a system with 2+ planets that you otherwise wouldn't be able to hold or it allows you that extra final action that creates a bunch of victory points)


Well written. I just had to give it a try, and with the planta alien I had maximum money income but 0 science/material income at end of turn 2. But yeah, you probably need that science and material too.
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neko flying
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Godistjuven wrote:

but I believe that with a huge money income



As a rule of thumb, Science > Materials > Money, in most situations and with most races. It is usually easier to increase your Money output by spending Science on techs than to increase your science output by colonising planets.

Also, it is generally easier to increase your Money output by building a fleet and attacking someone, than to increase your Materials output by colonising planets you are unable to defend because you lack the Materials in the first place.

Of course you need to have enough Money for three or four actions a round. anything more than that is usually not very useful
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Peter O
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Rho Indi are the one race that can use this to their great advantage. With a 3 Money : 2 anything conversion, they can get ahead by maxing out their money first. Early on, any disc on money increasing money by 2 is a greater net gain than a disc increasing science or materials by 1.

Say you have 11 cubes worth of planets. This is enough to max out the money track. Maxing it out gives 28 money and lets assume a -13 upkeep for a net gain of 15. You can cover 15 money into either 10 science, 10 materials, or some amount in between the two AND you still get 2 each of sci and material even with no planets placed. You'd get a max of 8 science (or materials) by putting 4 of those cubes on science instead. So not only does maxing out money give Rho MORE resources, but it also makes them more flexible with the spending of those resources. With Rho's movement action getting an extra ship into position is trivial. The greater cost is the expensiveness of Rho's ships in general.
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Peter Bakija
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Godistjuven wrote:
I'm thinking doing the following move with a pop cube:
money track --> white planet --> material track
Repeat this and your money track will be almost empty (therefore a huge money income). This will give you more money than you could have normally. I hope I understood you correctly.


I don't think this works the way you think it works?

A gray planet doesn't let you have more cubes off of tracks than normal. It is just a planet. You can switch it back and forth between two colors of cubes, but it isn't going to result in you having more of anything than you would have if it was a planet with a color on it (other than a marginal +1 if you are at the exact right break points; or in the very arcane circumstances presented by Neko Flying, you can actually get a head a few points of resource income, but it is really hard to do that).

You can switch cubes, so you can go from 8 science and 6 money to 6 science and 8 money with an Influence action, but you are just gonna still end up producing 14 total resources in that instance between those two tracks on that turn in either case.

You can put a money cube on a gray planet, and then Influence it off and put it on the materials track (as you suggest) over and over again, but only up to the limit that you have materials already. Which isn't really benefiting you.

Quote:
So technically one gray planet could give you for example +4 steps on money track and -3 steps on the other tracks (if you leave one money pop cube on the planet)


Sure. But you are still only generating the same amount of stuff that you would have been otherwise. Yeah, you can have a huge money allotment, but you'll be generating nothing else. Which is bad.
 
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Peter O
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I was reviewing the numbers and even with Rho Indi this strategy isn't gang busters. What I left out of my previous analysis was when you have the 11 planets with 7 on Money and 4 on Science, you're producing 2 Money (after upkeep), 8 science, and 2 materials for 12 total resources. With all 11 on money cubes, you're producing 15 money, 2 science, and 2 materials which if you convert to science gets you 6 money, 8 science, and 2 materials for only 4 money more. That's one action more per turn. Actions you may be sinking into doing this strategy in the first place (and as you get more money planets needing to convert cubes BACK to science or materials to make room for the new money cubes). So really the only bonus is the flexibility in the conversion.

If you compare 11 money cubes vs 7 money + 2 science +2 material cubes the difference is a little better as then its 16 resources vs 10 resources. Still not awesome.
 
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Godistjuven
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bakija wrote:
Godistjuven wrote:
I'm thinking doing the following move with a pop cube:
money track --> white planet --> material track
Repeat this and your money track will be almost empty (therefore a huge money income). This will give you more money than you could have normally. I hope I understood you correctly.


I don't think this works the way you think it works?


I think we both know hos it works The total production of all 3 tracks would be about the same, you just get more money and less science/material.
 
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Peter Bakija
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Godistjuven wrote:
I think we both know hos it works :) The total production of all 3 tracks would be about the same, you just get more money and less science/material.


Yeah, about half way through my response, I finally figured out what you were actually suggesting:

I have a gray planet. I have 8 money, 6 science, 6 materials. I use an Influence action to pick up disc, put cube from gray planet on materials track. Put disc back, put cube on from money track. I now have 10 money, 6 science, 4 materials. Use a second Influence action, pick up disc, put cube from gray planet on materials track. Put disc back, put cube back from money track. I now have 12 money, 6 science, 3 materials. Use a third Influence action. Pick up disc, put cube from gray planet on materials track. Put disc back, put cube on from money track. I now have 15 money, 6 science, 2 materials. Use 4th Influence action. Pick up disc, put cube from gray planet on science track. Put disc back, put cube back from money track. I now have 18 money, 4 science, 2 materials.

Check. Yeah, I dunno that having 18 money, 4 science, and 2 materials (for example) is actually *better* than having 8 money, 6 science, 6 materials in practice. Especially if it takes 4 Influence actions to get there. I mean, yeah, ok, you do, in this particular example, end up going from 20 total resource production to 24 total resource production, which is something. And having 18 money means you can take more actions (or colonize more space), but having 4 science and 2 materials (or whatever) means you can't really *do* much with the extra actions you have.

Like, for my (ahem) money, I'd rather have the 8 money, 6 science, 6 materials, research Orbitals, build an Orbital, and then have 10 money, 6 science, and 6 materials. And that only takes 2 actions, increases total output, and provides the ability to further increase production in the long term.

But yeah, at least now I totally understand your suggestion :-)
 
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