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Subject: Simma's Banish rss

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Kimmo Viitanen
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Simma's Banish reads:

"Draw a range 6 cone from yourself. Each enemy in the cone moves up to 4 squares away from you."

The way it's written means I can choose an enemy 6 squares away from me and move that enemy up to 4 squares away from me. Is this the intent?

With 7 action points he can keep vast hordes of enemies at bay pretty reliably in open spaces. Someone just takes rest or aimed shot and it doesn't even need card use. And only affects enemies. Kind of gave a casual "make way, Chi'leen" feeling to scenario 2a... : P


Edit: More questions.

On page 21 sidebar it says: "You can push an enemy with the Bash action, or using any special hero ability or item that provides a Push."

On page 22 sidebar it says: "You can only push figures your own size (or smaller). To push LARGE figures you must be LARGE yourself."

So, is it:

a) Banish can be used to move large figures, but it's not a push so it cannot be used to damage enemies by pushing them into walls?
b) Banish can be used to push non-large enemies into walls but cannot be used to move large enemies?


(I think this concept of capital Push is not really mentioned anywhere, btw. Even bash only says you push something, not that it provides a Push. Page 21 only talks about pushing something, not using a Push. It's simply confusing.)
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Fluid Karma
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Great question, just wanted to post exactly that question today, too.
We played Simmas Banish not as a combat spell that "pushes" enemies against obstacles to do damage, but more like a magic brain remote control that makes enemies "move" backwards slowly - not inducing damage when they reach an obstacle. Therefore I would use it the same way for large enemies, too. Let's hear what the DDP guys think!
 
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Joe Price
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Singbird wrote:
Simma's Banish reads:

"Draw a range 6 cone from yourself. Each enemy in the cone moves up to 4 squares away from you."

The way it's written means I can choose an enemy 6 squares away from me and move that enemy up to 4 squares away from me. Is this the intent?


It means draw the cone. No target necessary. Each enemy within that drawn cone are affected. It is not targeting one enemy and moving it.
 
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Matthieu Bonnaffoux
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rpvt wrote:
Singbird wrote:
Simma's Banish reads:

"Draw a range 6 cone from yourself. Each enemy in the cone moves up to 4 squares away from you."

The way it's written means I can choose an enemy 6 squares away from me and move that enemy up to 4 squares away from me. Is this the intent?


It means draw the cone. No target necessary. Each enemy within that drawn cone are affected. It is not targeting one enemy and moving it.

I think what Singbird means is, what is the right sentence ?
1) Each enemy in the cone moves up to : 4 squares away from you.
2) Each enemy in the cone moves up to 4 squares, away from you.

I am just another backer, so I have no expertise in PM's rules, but I am pretty sure the correct sentence is 2).

And I think the same way as Fluidkarma about your 2nd question, I envision Banish as an aura forcing evil creatures to retreat, so they move by their own means and are not thrown into walls.
 
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David Hladky
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You are right, that it is very nice and useful thing. Plus I do not see any reason, why you you would not be allowed to push enemies against walls and hazards. They suffer from the effect, but keep in mind, that if that happens, their movement ends. So you can not push a character several times to a wall using this ability.

As for the size adjustment: if you bash a large creature and you are small, then you do not push it. It is too heavy for you to move. If you are big, then you can push even large enemies while bashing. I originally suggested comparing number of occupied hexes, but if I remember it well the final version is large can push large, so two square hero can push six square dragon (if there was a dragon in a game).

The released content so far does not have any large hero, but this will most likely change with prepared Soul Spire. I am not sure if I can tell, what the unit is, but I want IT in my party.
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Pardon my language problems, but I'll try to outline this.

The banish IS very useful, indeed. It pushes the enemies so that they're up to four squares away from you. Not so that it's four squares away from the starting location of the enemy.

Furthermore, it is ESSENTIAL to notice that Banish has RED number as the 4.
That means that you can (and often should) boost your banish to maximum of any red values = 6.

Hope this helps.
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Matthieu Bonnaffoux
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So, can Banish be used on large creatures ?

And if I understand it well, if you don't boost the red 4, you can use it to pull closer an enemy that is 5 or 6 squares away from you, right ?
 
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Fluid Karma
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Ahhhh... away from Simma, not from the square of the enemy, thats important to know! And does it inflict damage if the enemy is moved into a wall with banish?
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Casiodorus wrote:
So, can Banish be used on large creatures ?


Only if YOU are Large, too. Use Aishas ENLARGE spell to Enlarge Simma and then Simma can banish all large creatures. This is intentionally made combo. There are many of such comboes, but I'd prefer not to list all of them. It's better if you find those by yourselves, I think.

Quote:
And if I understand it well, if you don't boost the red 4, you can use it to pull closer an enemy that is 5 or 6 squares away from you, right ?


No. Banish has no effect beyond it's active scope. So if you dont boost it, it has no effect what so ever at range of 5 or 6 squares away from you.
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Fluidkarma wrote:
Ahhhh... away from Simma, not from the square of the enemy, thats important to know! And does it inflict damage if the enemy is moved into a wall with banish?


Indeed, it's Simma doing the banishing, not the enemy, mind you.

And yes, if you banish an enemy to an obstacle (such as water) it will trigger it's usual conditions. That means that when pushed to a wall, it will cause 1 damage. It's essential to keep in mind that pushing direction is always exactly straight lines drawn from Simma. So you can't choose where to banish.

And when enemies are banished to each other, nothing happens. (you'd have next asked this, I know

Banish requires that Simma gets close to the enemies to be able to use the Banish, which is tricky and risky. But when properly done, it can be very effective.
 
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Kimmo Viitanen
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Eridis wrote:

No. Banish has no effect beyond it's active scope. So if you dont boost it, it has no effect what so ever at range of 5 or 6 squares away from you.


So, to recap:

The red number is the maximum range at which enemies can end up.
Banish is a push.
So the range six cone is there only for if you want push range 5 enemies to range 6.

"Each enemy in the cone moves up to a distance of 4 squares from you" sounds less ambiguous to me.

But yeah, it's way less powerful than the way I read it.
 
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Timo Multamäki
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Singbird wrote:
Eridis wrote:

No. Banish has no effect beyond it's active scope. So if you dont boost it, it has no effect what so ever at range of 5 or 6 squares away from you.


So, to recap:

The red number is the maximum range at which enemies can end up.
Banish is a push.
So the range six cone is there only for if you want push range 5 enemies to range 6.

"Each enemy in the cone moves up to a distance of 4 squares from you" sounds less ambiguous to me.

But yeah, it's way less powerful than the way I read it.



Recap is correct, I'd say.

it's still likely one of the most effective abilities there is. It took quite a while to balance these. We don't want to have "superabilities".
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Didier Renard
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Damn, I should have read this thread more thoroughly. I also played it wrongly, moving away enemies the number of spaces from their starting position. I began to think this weapon was way too powerful so got suspicious.
Timo: I honestly believe the wording is confusing for banish and I would suggest adding some clarification in the FAQ.
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Timo Multamäki
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boulou wrote:
Damn, I should have read this thread more thoroughly. I also played it wrongly, moving away enemies the number of spaces from their starting position. I began to think this weapon was way too powerful so got suspicious.
Timo: I honestly believe the wording is confusing for banish and I would suggest adding some clarification in the FAQ.


good point. We will add this to FAQ and will update rulebook, too.
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Artur Baginski
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boulou wrote:
Damn, I should have read this thread more thoroughly. I also played it wrongly, moving away enemies the number of spaces from their starting position. I began to think this weapon was way too powerful so got suspicious.
Timo: I honestly believe the wording is confusing for banish and I would suggest adding some clarification in the FAQ.


Yupp, same here.
 
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John Watts
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Eridis wrote:

And yes, if you banish an enemy to an obstacle (such as water) it will trigger it's usual conditions. That means that when pushed to a wall, it will cause 1 damage. It's essential to keep in mind that pushing direction is always exactly straight lines drawn from Simma. So you can't choose where to banish.

And when enemies are banished to each other, nothing happens. (you'd have next asked this, I know


By analogy with another 'push' ruling here on BGG (concerned with figures who have a range 1-2 or 1-3) I've assumed that an enemy positioned in direct line with the first square of the cone adjacent to Simma will be pushed straight backwards, whilst everything else will be pushed diagonally away.

For large creatures (assuming Simma is large) where they are positioned simultaneously next to a door and a wall, I have also assumed that they take 1 damage and do not move further.

I am also in the habit of moving enemies which are furthest away from Simma first - that way, if for instance two Rotikkas are on the same line near a wall, the one at the back dies followed by the one closest to Simma. If this order is reversed then only one of them dies.

Are these assumptions correct?


 
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Joe Price
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JPWatts wrote:
Eridis wrote:

And yes, if you banish an enemy to an obstacle (such as water) it will trigger it's usual conditions. That means that when pushed to a wall, it will cause 1 damage. It's essential to keep in mind that pushing direction is always exactly straight lines drawn from Simma. So you can't choose where to banish.

And when enemies are banished to each other, nothing happens. (you'd have next asked this, I know


By analogy with another 'push' ruling here on BGG (concerned with figures who have a range 1-2 or 1-3) I've assumed that an enemy positioned in direct line with the first square of the cone adjacent to Simma will be pushed straight backwards, whilst everything else will be pushed diagonally away.

For large creatures (assuming Simma is large) where they are positioned simultaneously next to a door and a wall, I have also assumed that they take 1 damage and do not move further.

I am also in the habit of moving enemies which are furthest away from Simma first - that way, if for instance two Rotikkas are on the same line near a wall, the one at the back dies followed by the one closest to Simma. If this order is reversed then only one of them dies.

Are these assumptions correct?


For the large monsters, that seems reasonable to me - they only squeeze down voluantarily when they move.

For multiple movements like banish, I would say that the player gets the choice of order. The rules only state that when moving the enemies on their turn that they activate from closest to farthest. When present choices during play turns, order and tie breakers generally seem to be up to the players.
 
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Didier Renard
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JPWatts wrote:

By analogy with another 'push' ruling here on BGG (concerned with figures who have a range 1-2 or 1-3) I've assumed that an enemy positioned in direct line with the first square of the cone adjacent to Simma will be pushed straight backwards, whilst everything else will be pushed diagonally away.


This assumption appears incorrect, all enemies should move in the same direction I believe (as determined by the first space of the cone adjacent to Simma).
The other two assumptions appear ok to me. Nothing is explicitly said about the order so it is fair to assume that you get to choose!
 
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John Watts
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boulou wrote:
JPWatts wrote:

By analogy with another 'push' ruling here on BGG (concerned with figures who have a range 1-2 or 1-3) I've assumed that an enemy positioned in direct line with the first square of the cone adjacent to Simma will be pushed straight backwards, whilst everything else will be pushed diagonally away.


This assumption appears incorrect, all enemies should move in the same direction I believe (as determined by the first space of the cone adjacent to Simma).
The other two assumptions appear ok to me. Nothing is explicitly said about the order so it is fair to assume that you get to choose!


I do agree with you, at first I thought that all figures were just moved backwards in the same direction along the cone's length but then I wondered if those not on the central axis should be pushed diagonally outwards because of this excerpt from the official FAQ:


Q: When Bashing a target 2 squares away with a reach weapon, and the target is in a square “1 over and 2 up” from the attacker (think how a knight moves in chess), what direction does the enemy get pushed, and what direction do you follow?

A: Both moves are 1 square diagonally in the general direction of the attack.


 
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David Hladky
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I saw somewhere a note, that the movement of the large monsters should work Descent way. So in my opinion you shrink the large monster, move the shrinked monster the same way you would push a small monster. Then you expand it any place possible. Unless the shrinked monster hits something, it does not hurt the target.

One of the rules mentions a small monster can not push large monsters, but assuming a large hero pushes the large enemy the FAQ should tell what happens if the large monster can not expand. The problem is there may be different reasons why it can not expand.

Walls would probably mean it gets hit, but combination of other figures (no HP loss) and walls is a mystery.
 
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Didier Renard
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JPWatts wrote:

I do agree with you, at first I thought that all figures were just moved backwards in the same direction along the cone's length but then I wondered if those not on the central axis should be pushed diagonally outwards because of this excerpt from the official FAQ:


Q: When Bashing a target 2 squares away with a reach weapon, and the target is in a square “1 over and 2 up” from the attacker (think how a knight moves in chess), what direction does the enemy get pushed, and what direction do you follow?

A: Both moves are 1 square diagonally in the general direction of the attack.


John, I understand where you are coming from but I just don't think extending the ruling of a special case for Bash means it is sensible for Banish, they are different things (recall that Bash is originally intended for close combat).
 
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Joe Price
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mrakomor wrote:
I saw somewhere a note, that the movement of the large monsters should work Descent way. So in my opinion you shrink the large monster, move the shrinked monster the same way you would push a small monster. Then you expand it any place possible. Unless the shrinked monster hits something, it does not hurt the target.

One of the rules mentions a small monster can not push large monsters, but assuming a large hero pushes the large enemy the FAQ should tell what happens if the large monster can not expand. The problem is there may be different reasons why it can not expand.

Walls would probably mean it gets hit, but combination of other figures (no HP loss) and walls is a mystery.


The large monster move rule requires that they have enough space to "unfold" at the final location (i.e. enough squares are available for the entire model that contain at least one eligible square of movement). Since large monsters do not trample heroes, they end up getting treated like an inaccessible square. At the very least, not having enough space at any time for a multi-square enemy means it was an invalid move and it would have to have stopped earlier - that would trigger an appropriate failure penalty for being pushed into something. For a large enemy, this would imply multiple possible points of impact. When there is a choice of equal things without another rule, that is typically player's choice. So figure out what stopped the push from moving the full distance and then make a choice among any "equal" options. I would generally chose the "hits wall" choice when possible.
 
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David Hladky
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During my proof reading we discussed the case of bash with a melée weapon with reach when attacking the "chess horse L" position. I was the impression Timo left this case intentionally and any position, that would increase the distance between the attacker and bashed figure would be OK.

It would be good to know what was the intention if one of such places would cause harm while the other would not. I think it is safe to assume you must choose the harmless position in this case. At least until the official ruling is set.

Timo is off-line for some time so we would need to wait for his response.

Didier, please, add this to the unanswered FAQ list.
 
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Joe Price
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mrakomor wrote:
During my proof reading we discussed the case of bash with a melée weapon with reach when attacking the "chess horse L" position. I was the impression Timo left this case intentionally and any position, that would increase the distance between the attacker and bashed figure would be OK.

It would be good to know what was the intention if one of such places would cause harm while the other would not. I think it is safe to assume you must choose the harmless position in this case. At least until the official ruling is set.

Timo is off-line for some time so we would need to wait for his response.

Didier, please, add this to the unanswered FAQ list.


I actually think it's the other way. This game definitely does not use the "if in doubt, make it harder for the players". It actually goes the other way and says that the players get to choose to their advantage. Take a look at spawning - player's choice. Equal paths? Player's choice. And Timo has encouraged people to make the *best* choice because the scenarios are harder than your average game.
 
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Timo Multamäki
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rpvt wrote:
mrakomor wrote:
During my proof reading we discussed the case of bash with a melée weapon with reach when attacking the "chess horse L" position. I was the impression Timo left this case intentionally and any position, that would increase the distance between the attacker and bashed figure would be OK.

It would be good to know what was the intention if one of such places would cause harm while the other would not. I think it is safe to assume you must choose the harmless position in this case. At least until the official ruling is set.

Timo is off-line for some time so we would need to wait for his response.

Didier, please, add this to the unanswered FAQ list.


I actually think it's the other way. This game definitely does not use the "if in doubt, make it harder for the players". It actually goes the other way and says that the players get to choose to their advantage. Take a look at spawning - player's choice. Equal paths? Player's choice. And Timo has encouraged people to make the *best* choice because the scenarios are harder than your average game.


If there are two equal paths, players choose what ever they wish.
It is, indeed, the common rule that you should try to play enemy so that it's smart for you or the enemy will win.
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