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Subject: Is the Yin Brotherhood "broken" rss

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Lowell Drake
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Some friends of mine and I are preparing for our second game of TI3, so I’ve been reading over some of the TI3 posts here on the geek. I don’t remember just which post I read it, but it was stated that the Yin Brotherhood was broken. We didn’t have them in play our first game, so I have no idea how they play, but I wanted to get the opinion of some the more experienced TI3 gamers what they thought about this. Is this faction broken, and if so, why?
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Andre Metelo
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Played with it once, against it many times.. They definitively did not feel broken.

If I had to place them. About average. Personally, I think the Jolnar, the Lizix and Crux stronger than they are.. Of course, the tribes are really strong, and to some extent sol, because they can delay they turn considerably to act without retaliation (OK, tribes can do that way better than sol)..

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Shawn Garbett
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Most put them in the "average" category. Rating the Races has a long discussion about ranking the races. The three that everyone ranked toward the bottom were: Xxcha Kingdom, Clan of Saar, and Arborec. This thread goes off on the Yin, Rank by Votes. So while they perform a bit below average and there are others below them from data, most don't like playing them.
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Brad Miller
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They are not broken. They are terrible.
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Necessary Evil
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Windopaene wrote:
They are not broken. They are terrible.


Agreed! They suck.
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Scott Randolph
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Windopaene wrote:
They are not broken. They are terrible.


"+1"

The Yin Brotherhood are the worst Great Race in the game, they completely suck. We have even revised/buff'd them, they still suck.
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Scott Randolph
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malloc wrote:
Windopaene wrote:
They are not broken. They are terrible.


Agreed! They suck.


"+1" on complete Yin Ninnie suckaciousness
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possum man
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I don't think they're terrible, but they're definitely average. They can be a strong aggressive race due to their kamikaze and convert abilities, but have some drawbacks too. 6/10.
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Steve Williams
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These folks are crazy. Yin brotherhood are fine. No one in my play group is ever sad to see them as an option, and they tend to do well. Their once a round skip is great, ability to flip planet values is great, GF conversion ability not to be ignored. Kamikaze rarely matters, but is a nice option. They are leagues better than the Sardak N'oir, Xxcha, and Arborec. They are by no means over powered, but they have more power than folks tend to credit them.
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Kuba W
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I played Yin once and really liked it. Whereas with other races, I tend to ignore some of the race-specific stuff, because usually some of it is too expensive or unimportant (I'm talking about racial abilities, racial techs, flagship etc.), with the Yin I think I used most of it and it was really nice.
 
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Jonathan Folkert
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I used to underestimate the Yin's suicide ability, but I think it's much stronger than most people give it credit for. It makes attacking Yin planets an extremely frustrating proposition, since they can target your carrier. If an opponent wants to take planets in a system away from you (assuming you have a Destroyer or Cruiser in the system) they have to either 1) bring such an overwhelming force that they kill all your ships in the first combat round or 2) bring a redundant carrier (loaded with ground troops) since your suicide ability will nuke the first one (and everything it carries).

That said, they're certainly not overpowered or broken.
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Lowell Drake
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Great perspectives and thoughts. I'll keep them in the mix. Thanks to all.
 
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K S
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Yin are slow and lack production capacity.
Their starting fleet is awsome though and their suicide ability is often underestimated (almost always take out the carrier).
Go yellow, then blue.
Build light ships (all your DD)
Use Warfare for early expansion and find a system for productioncenter(maybe take MR in round 2)
Don't think too much on Flagship and racetechs. You need loads of resources to achieve all of the above and you can easily Fall behind in the VP race.
Don't hesitate to play aggressive, you can easily whipe out an unaware neighbour early. You can also play slow and defensively, since noone will dare to send their carriers against your Destroyers in the early rounds.
I like to play the Yin and I just love their backstory. I haven't won with them yet though...but the Day will come :-)
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Andy Day

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I enjoy the Yin. They get a little bit of bonus on land, space and economy. None are stellar by themselves but when summed, they have a lot of nice options. You have more flexibility with them than some other races, whose big flashy abilities encourage you to play a certain way.

Fun race.
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Scott Randolph
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In 63 games of TI3 the Yin Brotherhood have won once.

1. the planet flip ability is a liability, the Yin player is always begging, as in it costs TG's to bribe, players with Tech or Prod not to do it in the first action of the game round, or the Yin have 2 fewer resources before flipping their home planet
2. suicide DD's have to SURVIVE until the second combat round, in small battles, 3 ships or less, this often does not happen
3. to make the suicide DD a viable threat, the Yin player has to invest more CC's in fleet supply compared to other Great Races...are you really going to kill off your CA's & DN's so that your DD survives, seldom ever, if your DD survives at all
4. Blue Techs and Yellow Techs are the most useful, red techs are the least useful, except ADT's in certain cases (Certainty vs Probability), reds generally affect probability, with Blues and Yellows I KNOW that I can produce more, or get 1 extra free resource, or move 2 hexes with my carriers, or more through certain obstacles, no unpredictable probability involved)
5. Newb players are always buffing up on red techs (which is all the Yin start with), playing TI3 as a wargame, and always losing, game after game after game, we've had over 75 TI3 players come and go, it took our best most experienced player 6 tries with the Yin to finally win with them, and we revised/improved them
6. From the start, the Yin cannot produce as much, and therefore have great difficulty being aggressive with smaller fleets, and their fleets are slower, and less maneuverable

Please, come join us for one of our TI3 games and play the Yin Brotherhood, we will all be very happy.
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Steve Williams
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SFRR wrote:
In 63 games of TI3 the Yin Brotherhood have won once.


As I recall, your group plays with quite a few variants, several pretty drastic, so not exactly an ideal environment for anecdotal examples. You might as well argue that the Yssaril are not the best race in the game after you nerf them.

SFRR wrote:

1. the planet flip ability is a liability, the Yin player is always begging, as in it costs TG's to bribe, players with Tech or Prod not to do it in the first action of the game round, or the Yin have 2 fewer resources before flipping their home planet


Tech is not a valid argument; even after the flip Yin [or most races for that matter] cannot afford a Turn 1 tech without some source of extra Trade Goods, which cannot be relied on.

Production IS an issue, since if the Production holder flips it as their very first action and goes before the Yin, the Yin cannot afford a second Carrier in a vacuum. This is not that common however; many races only have 1 Carrier, and need to move their starting fleet out to not lose value by going over their fleet supply to build a second one. So in the specific scenario that a race that can afford to Turn 1 Production and gets Production and is going before the Yin, then yeah that's brutal.

SFRR wrote:

2. & 3. (Suicide Destroyers)


Agreed (as above) that they aren't anything to plan around, but come in handy. You can do it with a Cruiser or a Destroyer, and in the very same small battles you mentioned, it is unlikely that both sides are going to roll all hits. Whether defending a planet or attacking another fleet, killing the Carrier is victory.

SFRR wrote:

4. (Red Techs are bad)


Correct, but the Yin are not the only race with bad starting techs, and nothing forces you to go further down that red tech rabbit hole.

SFRR wrote:

5. We've had over 75 TI3 players come and go, it took our best most experienced player 6 tries with the Yin to finally win with them, and we revised/improved them


Again, lots of variants in this group [unless I've got you confused for someone else] so the argument requires some salt.

SFRR wrote:

6. From the start, the Yin cannot produce as much, and therefore have great difficulty being aggressive with smaller fleets, and their fleets are slower, and less maneuverable


No slower than any other race that doesn't start with Antimass Deflectors.

SFRR wrote:

Please, come join us for one of our TI3 games and play the Yin Brotherhood, we will all be very happy.


Hold one at GenCon and I might take you up on that offer.
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Andy Day

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I don't win TI that often, and I am THE most experienced player in my group. My group knows it. Thus, I don't win. They see too it.

Citing victories is a flimsy way to say a race is not good. While race provides some nice boons, it is not even close to the most important factor.

It is like saying that FDR sucked because he couldn't win WWII, and Truman rules because he did.
 
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Greg Pratt
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I'm probably in the camp that the Yin are a bit on the sucky side. I have won with the Yin, but it felt like I did it despite their abilities, not because of them.

TBH, I think starting with Automated Defense Turrets is their single greatest strength. It puts a bit of fear into the races that rely heavily on fighters. Especially early in the game.

Number two is their flagship. It can be quite nasty, if used right.

Their suicide destroyers (and cruisers) is probably number 3. But it is kind of weak, as it deals a hit rather than destroying a ship. (I think that they should've gotten a racial tech similar to the Sardakk N'Orr's, FWIW).

The conversion ability is very swingy, and a distant 4th. Very distant IMO.

They lack a bodyguard for their representatives. And other than their spy (who tends to die), are pretty ho-hum.

Overall, I think that they are probably the weakest of the races. They really need a boost.
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Jonathan Challis
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Magesmiley wrote:
I'm probably in the camp that the Yin are a bit on the sucky side. I have won with the Yin, but it felt like I did it despite their abilities, not because of them.

TBH, I think starting with Automated Defense Turrets is their single greatest strength. It puts a bit of fear into the races that rely heavily on fighters. Especially early in the game.

Number two is their flagship. It can be quite nasty, if used right.

Their suicide destroyers (and cruisers) is probably number 3. But it is kind of weak, as it deals a hit rather than destroying a ship. (I think that they should've gotten a racial tech similar to the Sardakk N'Orr's, FWIW).

The conversion ability is very swingy, and a distant 4th. Very distant IMO.

They lack a bodyguard for their representatives. And other than their spy (who tends to die), are pretty ho-hum.

Overall, I think that they are probably the weakest of the races. They really need a boost.


One problem in people comparing races in a game with lots of optional rules, is that it only has merit when comparing games of exactly the same options.

In the example above Representatives is (probably correctly) identified as a weakness, but since I will gouge out my eyes with a rusty spoon before i play with Representatives again, that doesn't factor into my weighing up.

On the other hand I would count Leaders, Racial Techs and Space Mines...

I think Yin are middle of the pack. I'd happily take them, but would hope for a better choice (anything with XRD and/or 2 carriers).
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Scott Randolph
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IncrediSteve wrote:
SFRR wrote:
In 63 games of TI3 the Yin Brotherhood have won once.


As I recall, your group plays with quite a few variants, several pretty drastic, so not exactly an ideal environment for anecdotal examples. You might as well argue that the Yssaril are not the best race in the game after you nerf them.

SFRR wrote:

1. the planet flip ability is a liability, the Yin player is always begging, as in it costs TG's to bribe, players with Tech or Prod not to do it in the first action of the game round, or the Yin have 2 fewer resources before flipping their home planet


Tech is not a valid argument; even after the flip Yin [or most races for that matter] cannot afford a Turn 1 tech without some source of extra Trade Goods, which cannot be relied on.

Production IS an issue, since if the Production holder flips it as their very first action and goes before the Yin, the Yin cannot afford a second Carrier in a vacuum. This is not that common however; many races only have 1 Carrier, and need to move their starting fleet out to not lose value by going over their fleet supply to build a second one. So in the specific scenario that a race that can afford to Turn 1 Production and gets Production and is going before the Yin, then yeah that's brutal.

SFRR wrote:

2. & 3. (Suicide Destroyers)


Agreed (as above) that they aren't anything to plan around, but come in handy. You can do it with a Cruiser or a Destroyer, and in the very same small battles you mentioned, it is unlikely that both sides are going to roll all hits. Whether defending a planet or attacking another fleet, killing the Carrier is victory.

SFRR wrote:

4. (Red Techs are bad)


Correct, but the Yin are not the only race with bad starting techs, and nothing forces you to go further down that red tech rabbit hole.

SFRR wrote:

5. We've had over 75 TI3 players come and go, it took our best most experienced player 6 tries with the Yin to finally win with them, and we revised/improved them


Again, lots of variants in this group [unless I've got you confused for someone else] so the argument requires some salt.

SFRR wrote:

6. From the start, the Yin cannot produce as much, and therefore have great difficulty being aggressive with smaller fleets, and their fleets are slower, and less maneuverable


No slower than any other race that doesn't start with Antimass Deflectors.

SFRR wrote:

Please, come join us for one of our TI3 games and play the Yin Brotherhood, we will all be very happy.


Hold one at GenCon and I might take you up on that offer.


Well done, thorough reply Steve.

"+1"

Yes, we are the group that plays with the Galactic Senate ruleset:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/100478/galactic-senate-sc...
...IIRC our next game will be our 28th with this ruleset, we're never going back to RAW (RAW is an inferior game).
We also play with mods/revisions to several of the Great Races so that they are all more competitive (we have yet to be able to fix the Yin):
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/129587/revisions-4-great-...
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Scott Randolph
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Gylthinel wrote:


Citing victories is a flimsy way to say a race is not good. While race provides some nice boons, it is not even close to the most important factor.


Correct, the most important factor is player skill. If I intersect player win data with Great Race win data, the Yin Brotherhood are even worse by comparison.
 
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Scott Randolph
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Kelanen wrote:
Magesmiley wrote:
I'm probably in the camp that the Yin are a bit on the sucky side. I have won with the Yin, but it felt like I did it despite their abilities, not because of them.

TBH, I think starting with Automated Defense Turrets is their single greatest strength. It puts a bit of fear into the races that rely heavily on fighters. Especially early in the game.

Number two is their flagship. It can be quite nasty, if used right.

Their suicide destroyers (and cruisers) is probably number 3. But it is kind of weak, as it deals a hit rather than destroying a ship. (I think that they should've gotten a racial tech similar to the Sardakk N'Orr's, FWIW).

The conversion ability is very swingy, and a distant 4th. Very distant IMO.

They lack a bodyguard for their representatives. And other than their spy (who tends to die), are pretty ho-hum.

Overall, I think that they are probably the weakest of the races. They really need a boost.


One problem in people comparing races in a game with lots of optional rules, is that it only has merit when comparing games of exactly the same options. {bold, italics added by me}

I think Yin are middle of the pack.


Good point {bold, italics text}, we only have our own data set for valid comparison, and I intersect player win data with Great Race win data, and this puts the Yin Brotherhood at the bottom of our list. Again, not everyone's list, just ours.
 
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Greg Pratt
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Kelanen wrote:

One problem in people comparing races in a game with lots of optional rules, is that it only has merit when comparing games of exactly the same options.


Yep. My group plays with pretty much all of the optional rules in play, so I'm evaluating them based on all of the race-specific stuff. I suspect that is one of the more common play configurations, but it isn't the only one out there, by far.

I've thought about the problems I've seen with the Yin, and if I had to point to one (simple) change that probably wouldn't overpower the race, I'd suggest making their home planet a 4/2 instead of a 2/4. This would make their ability to reverse the numbers much more useful IMO.
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Jonathan Challis
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Magesmiley wrote:

Yep. My group plays with pretty much all of the optional rules in play, so I'm evaluating them based on all of the race-specific stuff.


Leaders, Space Mines, Representative and Distant Suns all have significant minorities at least not using them.
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Andy Day

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SFRR wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:


Citing victories is a flimsy way to say a race is not good. While race provides some nice boons, it is not even close to the most important factor.


Correct, the most important factor is player skill. If I intersect player win data with Great Race win data, the Yin Brotherhood are even worse by comparison.

Which again is looking at one factor in a whole smog of factors. That is analytical garbage. But if you want to base your opinion on incomplete data then feel free to do so. Go Trump?
 
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