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Star Wars: Rebellion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Independent Operation and Captured Leader rss

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Jacob Williams
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In a game tonight, I had General Rieekan captured on Mon Calamari. My friend played Independent Operation on Mon Calamari. Would Rieekan be rescued because all Imperial units moved out of the system, or does he just move with the units?
 
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Craig S.
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What's the exact wording of Ind Op?
 
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It states move all his ground units. Empire player may move captured leader when moving.
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Craig S.
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Arontje wrote:
It states move all his ground units. Empire player may move captured leader when moving.


Correct. Rules state that captured leaders can be moved as if they are a unit. They require a ship with transport capacity to move them, but do not take up any of that capacity.
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No rule quotes this time, I'm at work - but...

csouth154 wrote:
Rules state that captured leaders can be moved as if they are a unit. They require a ship with transport capacity to move them


That's right - and there's no such ship in this case.

Rulebook clearly defines what "ignore transport restrictions" means, and such abilities only lift transport restrictions on units, not leaders. There's no rule anywhere that would "transform" captured leader into a ground unit for all purposes.


I've sent the question to Corey last week anyway (not the first time this was asked on BGG), so we will know official answer sooner or later.


Thematically? Empire may move the captured leader, but only if he's frozen in carbonite.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I argue that the rules allow the captured leader to move. You move a captured leader as if he was a ground unit (except that they can't retreat), and in this situation, you would move him as if he was a ground unit while ignoring transport restrictions. That means he could indeed move with the others.
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Jacob Williams
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We played it that the captured leader could move, but the thing that was giving us pause is where it said how to free leaders. It just said any time a captured leader is in a system with no imperial units, they are freed. So we thought there could be a loophole here.

Ultimately we differed to theme. If Lando is making a deal with the Empire, then he doesn't care about freeing captives.
 
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David Umstattd
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Ultimately I'm not sure here and would like an official ruling. Is the move caused by Independent Operation considered a normal "move" for the purposes of moving a captured leader? It said move imperial ground units. a captured rebel operative isn't an imperial ground unit. So would such a restriction apply here?

I don't think it's as cut and dry as you say.
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Mike Barry
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It looks pretty cut and dry to me:

RR P3- The Imperial player can move a captured leader as if it were a
ground unit, but it does not count toward transport capacity.

Independent Operation specifies ground units and this bullet point enables you to move the leader with them.
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David Umstattd
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Dashz wrote:
It looks pretty cut and dry to me:

RR P3- The Imperial player can move a captured leader as if it were a
ground unit, but it does not count toward transport capacity.

Independent Operation specifies ground units and this bullet point enables you to move the leader with them.


Isn't that in the context of activating a system? I know you're not allowed to move a captured leader when retreating. So it isn't a simple "whenever you move units you may move a captured leader as if it were a ground unit." It's limited to specific circumstances.
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Craig S.
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David Umstattd wrote:
Dashz wrote:
It looks pretty cut and dry to me:

RR P3- The Imperial player can move a captured leader as if it were a
ground unit, but it does not count toward transport capacity.

Independent Operation specifies ground units and this bullet point enables you to move the leader with them.


Isn't that in the context of activating a system? I know you're not allowed to move a captured leader when retreating. So it isn't a simple "whenever you move units you may move a captured leader as if it were a ground unit." It's limited to specific circumstances.


The rules for retreating explicitly exclude moving captured leaders. Otherwise, they can be moved as ground units. The Independent Operations card "moves" ground units, so all normal movement rules apply except for exceptions provided by the card.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The movement rule for captured leaders is not limited to moving via system activation. It is defined for all forms of movement. The retreat section specifically disallows movement of leaders, but no other movement methods provide other restrictions.

The conclusion is that this is a type of movement that captured leaders can use. Retreat is the only type of movement that can't move captured leaders.
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Ok, let me elaborate a bit on my previous post, this time around with relevant quotes.

First the rulebook establishes when units with the transport restriction icon and captured leaders can be moved by Empire.

Rules Reference p. 09, "Moving Units" section:
"• Each ship that moves can bring a number
of ground units and TIE Fighters along
with it equal to its transport capacity.
• Some units have the transport restriction icon.
These units can move only when the player is
moving units with transport capacity out of the
same system."


Rules Reference p. 03, "Captured Leaders" section:
"The Imperial player can move a captured leader as if it were a
ground unit, but it does not count toward transport capacity."


In short, we have a "parent rule" which says:
"To move units with transport restriction icon, you need to use units with transport capacity.
To move captured Rebel leaders, you need to use units with transport capacity."

Then the rulebook provides an exception from this rule.

Rules Reference p. 09, "Moving Units" section:
"If an ability allows a player to “ignore transport
restrictions,” then his units with the transport restriction
icon can move without the need for units with transport
capacity to also move from their system."


In other words, the rulebook definition of "ignore transport restrictions" abilities say that you do not need units with transport capacity to move units with transport restriction icon.

So, when we simply subtract the exception from the "parent rule", we get the following:

"To move units with transport restriction icon, you do not need to use units with transport capacity.
To move captured Rebel leaders, you need to use units with transport capacity."


Of course, this interpretation hinges on the following assumption:
Captured Rebel leader is not a unit with transport restriction icon.

...is he?
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David Umstattd
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So basically the question is "Is a captured leader considered an imperial ground unit in all circumstances for the purposes of movement."

Which does indeed seem to be the case. But I'd like an official ruling on when a captured leader is and is not considered an imperial ground unit.
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Chris
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David Umstattd wrote:
But I'd like an official ruling on when a captured leader is and is not considered an imperial ground unit.


You may get an official ruling eventually, but don't hold your breath. If enough of a player outcry is made, FFG may release an updated FAQ, but in the meantime make a decision between yourself and your opponent and agree on how to handle the situation (should it ever come up again) in that specific match. Don't let it ruin your experience or get seriously bogged down in a little minutiae like this. Unless of course you're playing for money!! ;-)

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David Umstattd wrote:
So basically the question is "Is a captured leader considered an imperial ground unit in all circumstances for the purposes of movement."


Well, if you phrase it like that, the answer is: it isn't. Captured leader only gains some of the abilities of ground units, with at least 2 differences explicitly mentioned in the rulebook: no retreats and it does not count toward transport capacity.

When it comes to the matter at hand, I don't think these particular differences matter in themselves, but the mere fact that they exist (i.e. captured leader =/= ground unit) - does.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Perf, according to your argument, the only units that require transport capacity in order to move are ones with the icon. Your first quote makes it clear, only referring to units with the icon, not to ground units nor captured leaders.

This seems to make the argument fall apart. In fact, you should be arguing that captured leaders don't need transport capacity, as there is no rule that says ground units require transport capacity. Captured leaders would be the only type of ground units that don't have the icon, hence they don't even need a transport capable ship to move.

Of course, we know that's not the intention. It's quite clear that 'units with the icon' is meant to be shorthand for 'ground units and TIEs'. The transport restrictions rule thus must apply to captured leaders. Thus, captured leaders do need a transport capable ship unless transport restrictions are ignored.
 
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gamerchef631 wrote:
David Umstattd wrote:
But I'd like an official ruling on when a captured leader is and is not considered an imperial ground unit.


You may get an official ruling eventually, but don't hold your breath. If enough of a player outcry is made, FFG may release an updated FAQ...

For what it's worth, FFG is usually pretty good about answering rules questions, and I don't think it would have to be in a published FAQ to consider it an "official ruling" (since the answers pretty much come from the designer directly).
 
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Mike Barry
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Rules:

I. Each ship that moves can bring a number
of ground units and TIE Fighters along
with it equal to its transport capacity.


- This Rule is irrelevant to the current conversation as no ships are being used to move units.


II. Some units have the transport restriction icon.
These units can move only when the player is
moving units with transport capacity out of the
same system.


- This Rule is also irrelevant, no units are being moved with transport capacity. And any units that don't have the icon but could move are not subject to this rule. In other words, if AT-AT's didn't have transport restriction they could still move using the card.

III. If an ability allows a player to “ignore transport
restrictions,” then his units with the transport restriction
icon can move without the need for units with transport
capacity to also move from their system.


- This rule is also irrelevant as captured leaders do not have transport restriction icons.

IV. The Imperial player can move a captured leader as if it were a
ground unit, but it does not count toward transport capacity.


- In the end this is the only actual rule that triggers a result based on the text of these rules. The transport capacity clause is irrelevant as it isn't being used. Giving us:

The Imperial player can move a captured leader as if it were a
ground unit.


Based on Independent Operation's text - This rule allows you to move captured leaders.
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First things first:

Clipper wrote:
there is no rule that says ground units require transport capacity.


Rules Reference p. 14, "Transport Capacity" section:
"To move ground units and TIE Fighters, the player must have enough
transport capacity."


Hmm, I don't think there's any wiggle room here...
 
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Jeffrey
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I'd watch a People's Court-type show about rules arguments like this.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Perf wrote:
First things first:

Clipper wrote:
there is no rule that says ground units require transport capacity.


Rules Reference p. 14, "Transport Capacity" section:
"To move ground units and TIE Fighters, the player must have enough
transport capacity."


Hmm, I don't think there's any wiggle room here...

That doesn't say you need units with transport capacity present. It just says you need enough capacity. Captured leaders need 0 capacity and you have 0 capacity. Hence captured leaders can move.

In order to complete your argument, you need to find a rule that says you must be moving ships with capacity in order to move ground units.

*wriggle wriggle*
 
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Jacob Williams
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LocutusZero wrote:
I'd watch a People's Court-type show about rules arguments like this.


Million dollar YouTube channel right here!
 
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Niall Smyth
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gamerchef631 wrote:
David Umstattd wrote:
But I'd like an official ruling on when a captured leader is and is not considered an imperial ground unit.


You may get an official ruling eventually, but don't hold your breath. If enough of a player outcry is made, FFG may release an updated FAQ, but in the meantime make a decision between yourself and your opponent and agree on how to handle the situation (should it ever come up again) in that specific match. Don't let it ruin your experience or get seriously bogged down in a little minutiae like this. Unless of course you're playing for money!! ;-)



FFG answer rules questions all the time. I've seen lots of them copied here.
 
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Clipper wrote:
That doesn't say you need units with transport capacity present. It just says you need enough capacity. Captured leaders need 0 capacity and you have 0 capacity. Hence captured leaders can move.

In order to complete your argument, you need to find a rule that says you must be moving ships with capacity in order to move ground units.

*wriggle wriggle*

Heh. Me deciding to use "units with transport capacity" and "units with transport restrictions" in my paraphrase of the rules probably wasn't the most fortunate choice of words, but I was hoping for my post to be more consistent with the wording of "ignore transport restrictions" exception in the rulebook.

Discussing transport capacity/transport restrictions is not that relevant here, because (going back to your previous post)...

Clipper wrote:
Perf, according to your argument, the only units that require transport capacity in order to move are ones with the icon. Your first quote makes it clear, only referring to units with the icon, not to ground units nor captured leaders.


That's not what that "first quote" says - it is actually the only thing in the rules that allows ground units to move at all.

In a way, movement rules start by establishing that only ships are allowed to move, then exception is made for movement of ground units, discussed in a bullet point.

Rules Reference p. 14, "Transport Capacity" section:
"After placing a leader in a system, the player moves any of his
ships to the activated system from adjacent systems."


Rules Reference p. 14, "Transport Capacity" section:
"• Each ship that moves can bring a number
of ground units and TIE Fighters along
with it equal to its transport capacity."



In other words:

Transport restriction icon on ground units is redundant. General rules for movement allow only ships to move by themselves. A ground unit needs a ship to move. A captured leader needs a ship to move. "Ignore transport restrictions" abilities does not lift the restriction for the leader.
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