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Subject: Following a career rss

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Aaron Bedard
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Hello boxing fans, I'm looking to play TB using a self-made career-mode, where I will choose one fighter, someone right at the beginning of their professional career, with a very low ranking, and have them work their way up the ranks, gaining experience as they go.

Starting him off with some 6 round bouts against other fighters with similarly low rankings. Hopefully see my guy get some wins, and gradually take him up against tougher and tougher competition, until he is able to hang with the big boys and hopefully get a shot at the title.

Obviously in order for this to work there will need to be some sort of system in place where my fighter's skill-level will advance as he climbs through the ranks.

I'm going to have to work out some sort of rewards or experience rules, where the stats on his card can gradually but realistically improve.

I have a couple different ideas on this, none of them tested or at all mathematically sound at this point.

I've been looking at the differences between Mike Tyson's card, who is ranked 11, and Jimmy Thunder's who is ranked 1. Trying to work out a path to make the tweaks necessary so that eventually a Jimmy Thunder might stand a chance in the ring against Iron Mike, but also not wanting to over-power him or break what is clearly a finely balanced system.

So I figured I'd come here first and see if anyone has tried such a project using Title Bout. If you've heard of, or created any sort of rules for seeing a fighter improve as he gains experience.

Or maybe someone would just want to brain-storm with me a bit and see what we might come up with.

Off the top of my head, I like the thought of their being a sort of duel rewards system. Where you'd get some points for winning a bout, but get even more points for fighting (win or loose) someone who is ranked higher than you.

Feels like this immediately opens the door for some interesting choices on who to fight next. Someone who is not much of a challenge and will probably get you a win, or someone who will be tougher but force you to become a better fighter.

You would take the points you're awarded into your next match and spend them.

Spend X on permanently improving a stat of your choice (CF or HP or KI or AGG or DEF, these seem to be the stats that see the widest gap between fighter skill levels)

And then also have some experience points to bring into the ring for your next fight. These you can spend, when needed, to subtract a point from an Action Card. To possibly turn a missed punch into a hit or a 2 point blow into a 3, or even to lower the KD number by 1

How many of these points a fighter should be awarded, what the costs should be for spending them, will the points be given to you in one lump sum or will they be released to you round by round - maybe even being affected by your performance in the previous round.. All things that I'm not even close to having worked out yet.

It's a little daunting because I'm no statistician or game-designer. I'm not the kind of guy who breaks open a watch to figure out how it works. So my worry is that any kind of experience system that I come up with, off the top of my head, may take what is already a wonderful design, packed with tension and excitement and ruin it somehow..but I guess I won't know for sure until I tinker with it a bit.

Would love it if you'd share any thoughts or ideas you may have for a project like this.

Thanks

 
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David Squires
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Aaron,

I haven't seen anything like that for Title Bout, but there was another game I had (very similar to Title Bout) that had a career mode. I don't recall a ton about it, but I know you select a pool of 50 fighters of varying levels and they are the top 50 in the world. You start off at the bottom of the barrel and you can get point after each fight to improve your fighter. I started a career, but didn't finish it.
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Aaron Bedard
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David, thanks for the response. That game sounds cool, do you recall what it was called?

I've been doing some brainstorming this week, taking notes, clummsily working out a framework for the earning and spending of experience points. These will (hopefully) allow a fighter to improve his printed stats, as well as his in-the-ring performance. There will be a few choices on when and how to spend these points. The ranking of who you decide to fight next will also impact things.

I'm going to tighten these ideas up a bit more and then will post them in this thread, and then put them to the test and see if it all hangs together.

I remain eager for any thoughts or ideas.
 
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David Orr
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Hey Aaron,

Try the site tabletop-sports.com
Look under downloads and then boxing and you should see Title Bout.

Cheers...Dave
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Aaron Bedard
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Blitz the Third wrote:
Hey Aaron,

Try the site tabletop-sports.com
Look under downloads and then boxing and you should see Title Bout.

Cheers...Dave


Whoa, I'd never seen this site before. As a fan of all sorts of sports-sims this is really going to be a great resource, thank you.

Hopefully once I tighten up these variant rules and see that they work, I can share them in the Title Bout forum over there.

 
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Aaron Bedard
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Okay everyone, settle down, settle down! Please, we need quiet here. You sir, in the back, please take your seat. Yes, absolutely, all questions will be answered. We just need to settle the room down a bit. Thank you.. thank you.

So..

What we have here is the earliest draft of the Variant Rules that I have been tinkering with. These will allow you to take a lower ranked boxer through a series of bouts, and see his existing statistics and ranking improve. Giving him a much better chance at competing against increasingly tough competition.


*Warning*

None of this comes from any sort of true scholarship or understanding of what makes Title Bout such a terrifically designed and well-balanced game.

All that I have really done here is: study the differences in skill-levels on the game's Boxer Cards and try to determine the key statistical advantages that seem to set apart a lowly-ranked boxer from an elite champion.

Next, I have tried to work out a path which would allow a lowly-ranked fighter to work his way from the bottom of that pyramid all the way up to a Championship Belt.. and to do so in, hopefully, a believable and realistically-paced fashion.

This has yet to be play-tested.

I will start testing right after making this post.

For now i am viewing this as a place where I can translate these early ideas into a more organized and accessible guide. Posting it in a public forum, such as this one, also acts as an invitation for anyone interested to offer any questions, improvements or criticisms that you may have.

Tweaks will most certainly be made as I try these out in the coming weeks. I will be returning to this thread with a report of any findings or changes.

The goal is to hopefully tighten these up to the point where I can confidently post them over in the Variants Forum.

But for now, here are my:

Rules for Fighter Advancement using Title Bout

To start you will need to choose a Boxer Card, or create your own from scratch. You will be taking him through an entire career of matches, seeing him gain experience and translate that into improvements to his statistics and ranking.

The hope is to ultimately be able to see, even the lowest ranked boxer, take on and possibly defeat a world-class champion,

You are going to need a few things not included in your copy of Title Fight.

A separate piece of paper, that will act as a substitute for your chosen boxer's "Boxing Card". On it you will be tracking his current:

Ranking
Statistics
Eperience Points gained and spent
Ring Points available
Win/Loss record

You will also need a D6, D8, D10 and D12


Experience Points:

Your boxer will gain Experience Points (XP's) based on the result of each of his matches.

XP's will vary based on two things:

1. The RESULT of the match
2. The RANKING of the opponent your boxer just faced

You will then have a few choices on when and how to spend these XP's.

Unspent XP's can be saved.

To Start:

Before fighting his first match using this variant, your boxer will be given 25 FREE XP's to spend, or save, any way he wishes.

Gaining Further XP's:


The following chart shows how many XP's you will receive per the result of each match your boxer fights in -

These rewards are affected not only by the RESULT of the match, but also if the opponent your boxer has faced was RANKED-

Lower/The Same/Higher

-than your boxer:

Winning the bout:
15/20/25

Losing the bout:
10/15/20

Winning by TKO:
5/10/15

Winning by Knock-Out:
10/15/20

Winning in the early rounds of the bout:
5/10/15

Early Round Chart:
6 Round Fight (Round 1-2)
8 Round Fight (Round 1-3)
10 Round Fight (Round 1-4)
12 Round Fight (Round 1-5)
15 Round Fight (Round 1-6)


Examples:

-A boxer beating an opponent who is ranked HIGHRER than him, by TKO, in the 3rd round of an 8 round bout, would be awarded a total of 55 XP's

-A boxer beating an opponent who is ranked THE SAME as him, by Knock-Out, in the 4th round of a 10 round bout would be awarded a total of 35 XP's

-A boxer beating an opponent who is ranked HIGHER than him, by winning a unanimous decision in a 10 round fight, would be awarded a total of 25 XP's

-A boxer losing to an opponent who is ranker LOWER than him, by being knocked out in the first round, would be awarded 10 XP's

Spending XP's:

Here are the ways you may spend your XP's:

1. Improve the statistics printed on your Boxer Card

2. Roll the Ring Points die

3. Purchase Additional Ring Points

4. Invest in World-Class Training


1. Improving Statistics:

You may improve only ONE statistic before each match.

That statistic may not be improved by more than ONE point before each match

The cost is:

25 XP's for EACH improvement above it's original value

The Five Fights Rule

Once a Statistic has been improved. You will need to fight FIVE fights with the new Stat before it can be improved again. This rule will repeat each time you improve a Stat.

Example:

A fighter with a starting statistic of HP/KI:4/5 could spend 25 XP's to improve his HP to HP/KI:5/5

He would then need to fight FIVE or more fights before his HP could be improved again to HP/KI:6/5

He would NOT be required to wait five fights in order to increase his KI Stat


Stats:

Here is the list of Stats on your Boxer Card that can be raised or lowered through the spending of XP's:

(Each Stat has a maximum or minimum achievable number, these will be printed in parenthesis)

CFB/S can be raised to (12/12)**

**Note: When raising the CFB/S Stat, the range of numbers between C and B can never be more than ONE.
Example;
Having a CFB/S 10/11 is legal, having a CFB/s 7/9 is not allowed

HP can be raised to (12)

KI can be raised to (10)

AGG can be raised to (10)

KOR can be raised to (8)

CO can be raised to (6)

CH can be lowered to (1)

KDR1 can be lowered to (0)

KDR2 can be lowered to (0)

TKO can be lowered to (1)

DEF can be lowered to (-10)

REC can be lowered to (-3)

Punches Landed Range can be raised, one point at a time, to a maximum of +10 above than it's original value.



**Two Exceptions**

There are two exceptions to the way the Stats on your Boxer Card can be improved:

3-Point Range
It costs only 10 XP's to improve any one of your 3-Point Hitting Values (Jab, Hook, Cross, Combination, Uppercut) by ONE point.

You may Spend 10 XP's to improve as many of your 3-Point Hitting Values, as many times as you can afford to, before a match. You DO NOT have to wait five fights the way you do the other Stats

Remember, when you improve your 3-Point Hitting Value by one point you must lower the corresponding 2-Point Hitting Value by one point.

Example:

You have 60 XP's after a match.
Before your next fight you decide to spend:
25 XP's to lower your TKO Rating from 3 to 2
Then you spend:
10 XPs to raise your
3-Point Jab range from 1-3 to 1-4
Then you spend:
10 XP's to raise your
3-Point Cross range from 38 to 38-39
and then you spend:
10 XP's to raise your
3-Point Uppercut range from 68-69 to 68-70
You would then be left with 5 XP's to save and spend at another time.

Endurance

A boxers END Stat will also NOT be raised by spending 25 XP's, as with other statistics

It will increase automatically by FIVE points following every FIVE matches your boxer wins

Example:

A boxer with an END:80 wins 3 fights in a row, then loses his next fight, then goes on to win 2 more. Following that FIFTH win, you would see your boxers Endurance raised to END:85

Endurance will be increased this way to a MAXIMUM of END:120

The Steady Decline:

Once your fighter has reached this pinnacle of END:120, he will be considered to have peaked physically.

He will fight exactly ONE match with an END of 120

EVERY match following that one, win or lose, will see his END decrease by 5 until it falls to a MINIMUM of 60.

It will never be raised again, and will signal a boxer very much at the end of his career.


2. Ring Points

Spending a Ring Point allows you to LOWER the result shown on the current Action Card by up to 5 points.

The ONLY numbers that an RP can affect are:
CF
RN
Result


Examples:

When drawing an Action Card to determine CF, you could spend your RP for that round to change the cards CF of 12 to a CF of 7 in order to keep Control.

When drawing an Action Card to determine a Result and the number is 36, you could spend one RP to bring that number down to a 34, in order to score a 3-point CROSS.

Gaining RP's:

Ring Points (RP's) can be purchased before the start of a match or during it.

To purchase RP's before the start of a match you will need to spend 10 XP's to roll the Ring Point die

The Ring Point Die that you will roll will be the same as the number of ROUNDS the match you are about to fight is scheduled for:

D6 for a 6 round fight
D8 for an 8 round fight
D10 for a 10 round fight
D12 for a 12 round fight
2D6+2 for a 15 round fight

The result of the die-roll is the number of ROUNDS that you will have ONE Ring Point to spend throughout the bout.

It will be up to you to decide which round, and on what Action Card you would like to spend them.

Example:

Before an 8 round bout you spend 10 XP's to roll the Ring Point Die.
you roll a 3 on the D8. You will have ONE Ring Point to spend in any three rounds that you choose.


3. Additional Ring Points:

In addition to Ring Points awarded through rolling the Ring Point Die, you may also purchase Additional Ring Points during the fight.

Additional RP's cost 25 XP's each

There is no limit to how many Additional RP's you may purchase by spending XP's.

Any RP's not spent in a match are LOST. They will not be carried over from fight to fight.

4. World-Class Training

World-Class Training represents your boxers investment in his management, training, diet, travel, etc.

World-Class Training is purchased by spending XP's

The cost is a one-time investment of 20 XP's

Followed by an additional 5 XP's for every fight following the initial 20 XP investment.

If you fail to maintain your World-Class Training, by spending the 5 XP's,. You immediately lose the training.

In order to gain it back, you will again have to spend 20 XP's for the first fight and then continue to maintain it for 5 XP's for every match that follows.

World-Class Training allows you TWO benefits:

1) When rolling the Ring Point die, you may roll TWO dice and choose the higher result.

2) If you roll the highest number available on either die (a 6 on a D6, a 12 on a D8 etc.) You will be rewarded one EXTRA RP, to be spent in any round you choose.
________________________________________

Improving your Ranking

A boxers ranking is the number immediately following his name on their Boxer Card.

This number will be increased by ONE for every TWO matches won against opponents who's ranking is the same or one level higher than his own.

If he wins a match against an opponent who is ranked more than one level higher than his own, his ranking will immediately be increased by one.

Examples:

Your boxer is ranked 5 and he wins a match against an opponent who is also ranked 5, he will need to beat an opponent in his next fight who is ranked 5 or 6 in order to see how own ranking increase to a 6.

Your boxer is ranked 8 and defeats an opponent with a 10 ranking, his ranking will increase to 9 immediately following the match.


SUMMARY:

Experience Points Awarded:

Winning:
15/20/25
Losing:
10/15/20
Knock Out:
10/15/20
TKO:
5/10/15
Winning in the Early Rounds of a bout:
5/10/15

Spending XP's:
25 XP = Raise/Lower a STAT by 1 (must fight FIVE fights before the same Stat can be improved again)
10 XP = Raise 3-Point Hitting Value
10 XP = Roll the Ring Point die
25 XP = Extra RP during a match
20 XP = Initial World-Class Training cost
5 XP = Maintain World-Class Training for each fight FOLLOWING the initial investment (must be paid before EVERY fight or it will be lost)

Stats you may raise or lower:
CFB/S (12/12)
HP/KI (12/10)
AGG (10)
CO/CH (6/1)
KDR1 (0)
KDR2 (0)
TKO (1)
DEF (-10)
REC (-3)
Punches Landed (+10 above original stat)

Hitting Value 3-Point range (Jab, Hook, Cross, Combination, Uppercut) *Raise by 1 point (No limit to how many times you can increase any of these before a fight. The cost is 10 XP's per point increase)

Ring Points:
Roll the Ring Point die before a fight.
Which die will be based on how many rounds the bout is scheduled for:
d6/d8/d10/d12
For a 15 round fight roll 2d6+3

The result is how many ROUNDS that you will have ONE RP to spend

RP's allow you to LOWER the result of the CURRENT Action Card by up to 5 points.

The numbers you may affect are:
CF
RN
Result

Additional RP's may be purchased and spent during at any time during match for 25 XP's

World Class Training:

When rolling for RP's you may roll two of the same die and choose the higher result

If you roll the highest number available, on either die, you will receive +1 RP for the match.

Ranking:

Raise by 1 point for every two fights won against opponents of the same rank OR one rank higher than your boxer.

Raise by 1 point for winning one fight against a opponent ranked TWO or higher than your boxer.

Endurance:
Raised by 5 points after every FIVE wins.

Maximum END is 120

Every bout FOLLOWING the one fought at END:120 will lower END by 5 points, all the way back down to a minimum of END:60.

At which point the boxer should probably hang up his gloves.
 
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John Weber
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davethewave91 wrote:
there was another game I had (very similar to Title Bout) that had a career mode. I don't recall a ton about it, but I know you select a pool of 50 fighters of varying levels and they are the top 50 in the world. You start off at the bottom of the barrel and you can get point after each fight to improve your fighter. I started a career, but didn't finish it.


Check out The Return of Heavyweight Champ! which had a similar premise -- you were in charge of the career of a young British heavyweight hopeful, with the goal of guiding him to the World HW title in less than five years. At the time the game came out, that hadn't really happened in real life, then along came Lennox Lewis who actually accomplished the feat. In that game, resolution of the bouts was through flipping a series of cards, but each bout earned experience and/or reputation points, which factored into training (between bouts) or moving up the rankings to challenge higher-level opponents. Seems very similar to what Dave and Aaron are talking about here in this thread.

Some of the same concepts (running a fighter's career and improving various abilities) that Aaron is branstorming here was at one point in time included in one of the original co-designer's articles in the long defunct All-Star Replay magazine (house magazine for Avalon Hill games years ago). At one time there was a website that had those issues posted, but unfortunately I don't believe it's still active.
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John Weber
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Link to Prior Articles on This Subject

Turns out the website link to prior issues of Avalon Hill's Sports Replay magazine are still available at this link:

http://www.oneforfive.com/avalon-hills-sports-magazine-all-s...

If you check out the Title Bout articles at Vol. 3, No. 4 and also Vol. 4, No. 2, you will see a very extensive pair of articles on the subject of "Role Playing with Title Bout," authored by Jim Trunzo, the original co-creator of this excellent game, that cover many of the same topics discussed in this thread. Recommended reading indeed.
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Aaron Bedard
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John Weber wrote:
davethewave91 wrote:
there was another game I had (very similar to Title Bout) that had a career mode. I don't recall a ton about it, but I know you select a pool of 50 fighters of varying levels and they are the top 50 in the world. You start off at the bottom of the barrel and you can get point after each fight to improve your fighter. I started a career, but didn't finish it.


Check out The Return of Heavyweight Champ! which had a similar premise -- you were in charge of the career of a young British heavyweight hopeful, with the goal of guiding him to the World HW title in less than five years. At the time the game came out, that hadn't really happened in real life, then along came Lennox Lewis who actually accomplished the feat. In that game, resolution of the bouts was through flipping a series of cards, but each bout earned experience and/or reputation points, which factored into training (between bouts) or moving up the rankings to challenge higher-level opponents. Seems very similar to what Dave and Aaron are talking about here in this thread.

Some of the same concepts (running a fighter's career and improving various abilities) that Aaron is branstorming here was at one point in time included in one of the original co-designer's articles in the long defunct All-Star Replay magazine (house magazine for Avalon Hill games years ago). At one time there was a website that had those issues posted, but unfortunately I don't believe it's still active.



John, thank you for digging these up. The Return of Heavyweight Champ! definitely sounds cool and I'm going to keep an eye open for it.

I did find the Jim Trunzo rules for Roll Playing a career in the Title Bout downloads section, here on Tabletop-sports.com

http://tabletop-sports.com/modules.php?name=UpDownload&req=v...

Finding these almost made me scrap this whole project and just use what he came up with. Clearly Mr. Trunzo is going to have a far better grasp on how any rules changes or additions are going to interplay with his original design.

One big difference is that he starts you with a completely blank slate. You are rolling dice to determine all of your fighters starting statistics.

With my rules I just took a pre-existing, lowly-ranked fighter and started him on his journey at the very first fight of his professional career.

Trunzo offers rules for having to negotiate for fights against top-ranked competition. Something I completely overlooked but they seem really great.

He also has a far more intricate approach to seeing your fighters ranking rise (and fall) based on his results.

His system for advancing your fighters attributes as he goes along is also far more intricate and impressive. The costs for improving each stat vary based on which of them you want to see improve. Whether or not you are a boxer or a slugger also plays into how these are raised. Another detail that I consider at all, and most certainly should have.

Trunzo's rule-set comes jammed with whole bunch of really great charts and tables to guide you through a career, things that I simply would have have no idea how to design.

It all looks great and leaves me a bit embarrassed that I worked as hard as I did to come up with a system, that when compared to Mr. Trunzo's, feels a bit unnecessary.

But I have started the journey using my rules, am having a lot of fun with them, and will continue to see how things develop.

Already though, I am looking forward to the day where I start all over again, using Trunzo's system.

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Aaron Bedard
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For anyone interested in following along at home I've created a blog to track how this project is advancing.

The Story of Dino Dennis

So far so good. Things have been going smoothly. I've been faced with a lot of interesting decisions, and am just having a blast with the game.

I'll be using the blog to track results, ideas, and tweaks, instead of constantly updating this thread and disturbing anyone who may have subscribed to the TB page, but have no interest in any of this.

If you are interested however, I remain excited for any comments and further discussion regarding this little design I've worked on, or Title Bout in general.

 
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