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Subject: Reasons not to buy KD:M ? rss

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Chiky Scares You
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I've read a lot of reasons that tell you why you should buy the game, but not sure which factors would make me not to buy it... specially because it is not a cheap game
By now assembling the minis is one of the factors for me, and maybe the fact that you have to play 120 hours (as i'd read) to defeat the game... and the price, i mean, i could buy 4 or 5 games with the gold lantern pledge hahaha
which reasons are making you consider not to buy it, or made you hessitate during the first KS?
 
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Terence Lee
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I dropped my pledge. My reasons...$200 for the level that I wanted was a bit too much for me. I've thrown $100-200 on a game in kickstarter but to me, I'm not sure if this is worth it for ME.

3 main reasons:
1) I'm not sure if my game group would enjoy it.
2) We don't get together often enough to probably even get through the game.
3) I love miniatures and I don't mind assembling them, but it seems like a waste to have so many options of armor when I'll only be using 4 minis.

Oh and 1 more....
I kept reading about random deaths happening...that didn't sound too fun for me.
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Ben Charbonneau
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- It is vulgar. Some mini sculpts show "sexy" figures. Some mini sculpts have visible genitals of some sort or another. Some pictures in the rulebook show nudity.

- It has a lot of dice rolling.

- It's expensive. If you don't enjoy the mini assembly/painting aspect, you are paying a premium that might not be worth it to you.

- There's a fair bit of bookkeeping. Keeping track of your settlement/survivors/gear. It's easy to forget to account for all modifiers that apply to your settlement/survivors.

Full disclosure: I have the game and I love it. I didn't think I'd care for the mini aspect, as I'm not artistic at all and I've never dealt with them before. I now enjoy painting minis at least as much as the game itself. I've certainly split my time with KD evenly between playing and painting.
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Chiky Scares You
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tlee33 wrote:
I dropped my pledge. My reasons...$200 for the level that I wanted was a bit too much for me. I've thrown $100-200 on a game in kickstarter but to me, I'm not sure if this is worth it for ME.

3 main reasons:
1) I'm not sure if my game group would enjoy it.
2) We don't get together often enough to probably even get through the game.
3) I love miniatures and I don't mind assembling them, but it seems like a waste to have so many options of armor when I'll only be using 4 minis.

Oh and 1 more....
I kept reading about random deaths happening...that didn't sound too fun for me.


wait, do you only use 4 survivors? why are all the others there for then?
and i have the same problem with my game group :/ that's one of the main factors for me to consider... i dont know if the game plays solo, but i dont like playing solo anyway
 
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Ian S.
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The bookkeeping is probably the biggest problem with the game. It is very cumbersome to deal with. Once you get a system down it gets better.
The game is also very punishing. With the roll of a dice you can lose multiple settlement members...or pieces of people.

I also own the game and love it.
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Chiky Scares You
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Actuarially wrote:
- It is vulgar. Some mini sculpts show "sexy" figures. Some mini sculpts have visible genitals of some sort or another. Some pictures in the rulebook show nudity.

- It has a lot of dice rolling.

- It's expensive. If you don't enjoy the mini assembly/painting aspect, you are paying a premium that might not be worth it to you.

- There's a fair bit of bookkeeping. Keeping track of your settlement/survivors/gear. It's easy to forget to account for all modifiers that apply to your settlement/survivors.

Full disclosure: I have the game and I love it. I didn't think I'd care for the mini aspect, as I'm not artistic at all and I've never dealt with them before. I now enjoy painting minis at least as much as the game itself. I've certainly split my time with KD evenly between playing and painting.


i dont see nudity as a problem, but i've seen that a lot of people find it not apropiated for the game...
and, does it have too much dice rolling? i dont remember the video gameplay i saw, so i cant recall how combat played
 
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Chiky Scares You
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TheWulffman wrote:
The bookkeeping is probably the biggest problem with the game. It is very cumbersome to deal with. Once you get a system down it gets better.
The game is also very punishing. With the roll of a dice you can lose multiple settlement members...or pieces of people.

I also own the game and love it.


with bookkeeping do you mean like having everything appart to continue playing and keeping track of your stats in the sheets?
 
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Michael B. Hansen
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"duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck duck" Ralph Wiggum .....
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I played it.


It is a clunky "Make your own Adventure" book, with nice minatures and a Polly Pocket gimmick.
In my opinion, naturally.
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Nathan Ehlers
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It's also long. A single session can last upwards of 3-4 hours and involve a lot of complicated and intense decisions. I know a lot of people who don't want to play anything you couldn't pull out for a table of coworkers over lunch.

It also requires assembling miniatures. A thing some people are negative about.

It's something of a "lifestyle game". That is, if you commit to finishing the core campaign, you're talking at least 40-50 hours of gameplay. If you only play games once a week for 8ish hours, that's 5-6 weeks of game play. And that assumes you finish it the first time through and don't start over or lose. It also assumes you have that kind of time in your week to play. If either of those assumptions are wrong, it could be more like months of game play. Which means you aren't playing anything else.

I will say that because of this last reason, the cost neg doesn't make much sense. $200 for 50 hours of gameplay is a much better deal than most games. By contrast, if you bought a $50 game that plays in 2h or so, you'd have to play it at least 7 times to get the cost to gameplay value to equal KD:M. So it's not "I could buy 4 other games for $200". Rather, it should be "I can by 4 other games that I'll play at least 7 times each". Otherwise it's cheaper to buy KD:M. Buying KD:M and never playing it is exactly the same as buying 4 games and never playing them. So you should probably not buy games you'll never play. This all assumes you want to maximize your dollar to fun times ratio. If the complaint is you just want to maximize your dollar to shelf-filling or collecting stuff ratio, then that's a different thing.
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Michael Pflug
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Reasons to NOT buy the game?

Maybe if you hate having fun.


No, seriously there are many reasons. For example if you don't like:

- coop games
- complex games
- the dark theme
- the nudity
- the randomness
- the role playing aspect
- how expensive it is
- it's a campaign game, not good for one shots
- minis must be assembled
- takes a ton of space

I personally don't care about any of these points, but others might.
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Ben Charbonneau
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sirgalin wrote:

It's something of a "lifestyle game". That is, if you commit to finishing the core campaign, you're talking at least 40-50 hours of gameplay. If you only play games once a week for 8ish hours, that's 5-6 weeks of game play. And that assumes you finish it the first time through and don't start over or lose. It also assumes you have that kind of time in your week to play. If either of those assumptions are wrong, it could be more like months of game play. Which means you aren't playing anything else.


Totally agree with this. I typically play the game heavily for a month, possibly starting/ending multiple campaigns. At some point, life gets in the way, so I take a month off for real life. Then I'll assemble/paint more minis for a couple weeks, which gets me excited for more play time. The cycle repeats. I've gone through this at least 6 times now, and I still get excited to play the game (I'm in the mini painting phase now).

I play solo only, which helps since I don't have to coordinate with anyone else for play time.
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Chiky Scares You
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sirgalin wrote:
It's also long. A single session can last upwards of 3-4 hours and involve a lot of complicated and intense decisions. I know a lot of people who don't want to play anything you couldn't pull out for a table of coworkers over lunch.

It also requires assembling miniatures. A thing some people are negative about.

It's something of a "lifestyle game". That is, if you commit to finishing the core campaign, you're talking at least 40-50 hours of gameplay. If you only play games once a week for 8ish hours, that's 5-6 weeks of game play. And that assumes you finish it the first time through and don't start over or lose. It also assumes you have that kind of time in your week to play. If either of those assumptions are wrong, it could be more like months of game play. Which means you aren't playing anything else.

I will say that because of this last reason, the cost neg doesn't make much sense. $200 for 50 hours of gameplay is a much better deal than most games. By contrast, if you bought a $50 game that plays in 2h or so, you'd have to play it at least 7 times to get the cost to gameplay value to equal KD:M. So it's not "I could buy 4 other games for $200". Rather, it should be "I can by 4 other games that I'll play at least 7 times each". Otherwise it's cheaper to buy KD:M. Buying KD:M and never playing it is exactly the same as buying 4 games and never playing them. So you should probably not buy games you'll never play. This all assumes you want to maximize your dollar to fun times ratio. If the complaint is you just want to maximize your dollar to shelf-filling or collecting stuff ratio, then that's a different thing.

the problem i see with this, then, is that it would take ALL my game time, making all my other games just dusty boxes over my desk...
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Joel Carr
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prior owner here, I loved it and hated it at the same time (sold it for financial obligations)

First my preamble: It is a very well done game, excellent, one of the best game I have played/owned, i have not, and likely will not pledge, but the jury is still out.

the things i disliked:
1) Setup space and time. I do not have the space to leave the board/settlement setup, so setup and break down cut into my very limited game time.

2)Bookkeeping, tons of bookkeeping... settlement and survivor. (this can be mitigated by space above... but still it is a lot.

3) the "grim dark" story... I tend to like a wee bit lighter fare. serious is fine, but the perpetual "death" was a bit much for my taste... that said the gameplay makes up for it in my opinion... I have similar feeling for the demon/dark souls VG series, but again the gameplay wins out for me.

4) due to 3, my wife is not interested and clearly it is not for my kids, making this solo only for me. and as a solo game with 1 and 2 above it just did not work.


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Ben Charbonneau
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xchikyx wrote:

the problem i see with this, then, is that it would take ALL my game time, making all my other games just dusty boxes over my desk...


That's what happened to me. I still have some two player games to play with the wife, but I've sold off almost all of my other solo games.
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darksurtur
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The game has an enormous storage footprint. The base box is enormous and expansions collectively can triple that amount - and that's before you assemble any models.
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Shelby Babb
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xchikyx wrote:

i dont see nudity as a problem, but i've seen that a lot of people find it not apropiated for the game...


There's nudity, and then there's dick monsters.

Sexual horror is a theme that makes some people -really- uncomfortable. Extreme violence and criminality themes are fine, but you throw sexual elements into the mix and some people will get upset.

And KDM has some dark sexual horror elements to be sure.
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Maxim Steshenko
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That's odd question but anyway...

• MSRP is insane. I still can't believe that it was sold during the first Kickstarter for humble 100$.
• You have to assemble and paint all these miniatures. On top of that you should magnetize them in order to get nice WYSIWYG experience.
• In reality, miniatures are optional. This game would work just fine in a Frontiers format. Terrain piece only confirms it.
• It's not a dungeon crawler. All characters are expendables and you have a settlement to manage!)
• Endless line of expansions that you might want to buy, doh.
• While the rulebook guides a player thought the game, Event Tables wears out quickly, considering the game scope. It hasn't a procedural generator like in Ranger.
• The core engagement loop has less choices than it could. While you are managing settlement for years, you can't colonize new places, trade with other settlements, tame local lifeforms... Or I'm not that far into my campaign?
• All playable characters are hunters.
• The combat system has To Hit roll. It's weaved nicely into the Hit Location deck, but it's still two rolls to perform an attack.
• The settlement phase is not as complex as a competent eurogame.
• Rules for 6 players aren't that good.
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Terence Lee
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xchikyx wrote:
tlee33 wrote:
I dropped my pledge. My reasons...$200 for the level that I wanted was a bit too much for me. I've thrown $100-200 on a game in kickstarter but to me, I'm not sure if this is worth it for ME.

3 main reasons:
1) I'm not sure if my game group would enjoy it.
2) We don't get together often enough to probably even get through the game.
3) I love miniatures and I don't mind assembling them, but it seems like a waste to have so many options of armor when I'll only be using 4 minis.

Oh and 1 more....
I kept reading about random deaths happening...that didn't sound too fun for me.


wait, do you only use 4 survivors? why are all the others there for then?
and i have the same problem with my game group :/ that's one of the main factors for me to consider... i dont know if the game plays solo, but i dont like playing solo anyway


I believe there's 4 survivors and you can outfit them with the different armors. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Chiky Scares You
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Frozen Flesh wrote:
Reasons to NOT buy the game?

Maybe if you hate having fun.


No, seriously there are many reasons. For example if you don't like:

- coop games
- complex games
- the dark theme
- the nudity
- the randomness
- the role playing aspect
- how expensive it is
- it's a campaign game, not good for one shots
- minis must be assembled
- takes a ton of space

I personally don't care about any of these points, but others might.

randomness in which form?
 
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that Matt
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Needing to figure out a good storage strategy that includes keeping cats and toddlers away from the assembled Phoenix, Watcher, et al. Because they ain't fitting back in any box.
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Orion Free
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sirgalin wrote:

It's something of a "lifestyle game". That is, if you commit to finishing the core campaign, you're talking at least 40-50 hours of gameplay. If you only play games once a week for 8ish hours, that's 5-6 weeks of game play. And that assumes you finish it the first time through and don't start over or lose. It also assumes you have that kind of time in your week to play. If either of those assumptions are wrong, it could be more like months of game play. Which means you aren't playing anything else.


Exactly, 50 hours (now probably 60 with the +5 year addition), if you go from start to finish without mucking it up. Or getting a NG+. And never playing the expansions with alternate campaigns/storylines.

All in all, you could spend hundreds of hours playing it. If you don't have the time, you might feel neglectful of this beast of a game.

Reasons to not buy it include -

1. Monetary problems - It's an awesome game, but it's just a game. Don't forgo other necessities.
2. Hype - Don't get it because it's really hyped right now. Do your research, see if it's something you will enjoy. Generally, purchasing a game just from hype will leave it a dissapointment.
3. Time - You don't have the equivalent time for yourself or a group to basically play the equivalent of D&D campaign sessions. It's a long game, and needs a lot of time to play through the whole game, and the drive to start a new campaign over when a settlement has been killed off.
4. Consistency - Don't get it if you don't enjoy solo play, or you don't have a group that can meet regularly to play through the campaign and invest the time to make it worthwhile. The price is only worth it if you are playing through multiple times.
5. Don't like grinding - Don't get it if you don't enjoy playing the same thing over and learning from it. Whether it is fighting a single monster or playing through a campaign, be prepared to do it over and over until you have learned how to play/fight it and what to build/upgrade. Until that point, prepare for resets.
6. Don't like randomness - There are campaign affecting single die rolls. You have been warned. If you can handle that, join the club. For eurogamers out there, this is a very thematic game, and the strategy is at a macro campaign level, not at a tactical/fight level. You will be frustrated and feel that it is unfair and it sucks if you do not like thematic rolly games. Be prepared for emotion.
7. Aren't a masochist - The game is brutal. Existing owners have lost many, many favorite characters and settlements. It is a meat grinder. Your characters can die to stupid, trivial, luck, and it can be unfair sometimes. That's part of it. The settlement itself is the most important character, and the population is the most important resource. Use it wisely, get attached because it's fun, and feel the burn when your favorite is slaughtered. It's fun for those of us who like looking adversity in the face. If you can handle that, again, welcome to Kingdom Death.
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Ben Charbonneau
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tlee33 wrote:


I believe there's 4 survivors and you can outfit them with the different armors. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


I correct you. You are wrong.

You play each hunt/showdown with 4 survivors of your choosing from your settlement, which will be made up of many survivors.
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J B
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I have to admit aside from cost and assembly, most of these "negatives" sounds like positives to me devil

Anyhow. The rule book is 200 pages according the bgg entry, presumably the new one will be even thicker.

The weight of the game according to bgg is 4.1'ish. That's huge, for a EURO game I can't stand anything over about a 3.4 but for Amerithrash I think I'm ok. To date one of my favorite games is Runewars with a weight of 3.75 and I found those rules fairly easy to grasp.

So some questions:

1. How much of the rulebook is rules and how much is the scenerio(s)?

2. I know this is completely subjective, but how hard is this game to learn from the rulebook without having someone help teach or watch gameplay videos? It seems to me that this might be a good one to avoid gameplay videos as it seems to have a lot of spoilers in it.

3. As others have asked, can anyone elaborate on bookkeeping? Do you mean having a character sheet and constantly modifying it, using multiple charts to compare savings throws, defense ratings, to-hit bonuses (aka dnd), or just filling out a bunch of crap at the end of a session to know where to pickup for the next session? Or all of that and then some?
 
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Chiky Scares You
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darksurtur wrote:
The game has an enormous storage footprint. The base box is enormous and expansions collectively can triple that amount - and that's before you assemble any models.

they dont fit inside the box????
 
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tlee33 wrote:

I believe there's 4 survivors and you can outfit them with the different armors. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


You play with 4 at a time, but they are all built separately. For example, if you want to go fight with a spear user, you build one of the kits as a spear user with whatever armor you want, and take them out to fight.

You don't need them, and you could theoretically play through the whole game with the 4 starting survivors.

Hell, you could sharpie A, B, C, D on a set of 4 bases, and use a large base for the monster, and never build anything, play through the whole game like that. Some of us like to be able to use matching equipment though, it's mostly just to add to the flavor and atmosphere of the game than anything else.
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