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Subject: The Traitor Emerges from the Shadows! rss

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James Motz
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I had an idea to fix two minor issues I have with the traitor in its current form:

1) The traitor's best move is almost always to drop more catapults on the Knights, which is so effective as to become brutally difficult to stop a revealed traitor in the late game.

2) This means it is kind of a boring role to be a revealed traitor, because you don't really have good choices to make, and there's no risk to you no matter what you choose (generally).

Proposed tweak:
When revealed as the traitor, do not discard your life die. Keep it at the same number of Life Points on the flipped coat of arms next to your miniature. If the Traitor chooses to place a siege engine during the Furthering Evil step, they must personally take the field! Place the their miniature next to the catapults at Camelot. Any Knight who is in Camelot may step forth to oppose your nefarious plans - after a Traitor's miniature is placed on the Traitor's turn, one Knight in Camelot may choose fight a siege engine as normal. If the forces of Good win, they prevent the siege engine from being placed AND the revealed Traitor loses a Life Point. If they fail, the siege engine is placed as normal and the Knight loses a Life Point as normal. After each fight, no matter the outcome, the Traitor retreats to the shadows and removes their miniature from the board. If the traitor ever falls to 0 Life Points, they die and may take no further turns (though they may still win the game posthumously).

Note that if the Traitor chooses to play a black card and the result is a siege engine, they may place it without taking the field. Only when they choose to place it instead of drawing the card must they emerge and risk combat.

Not having played this yet, I wanted some feedback on what I could be missing. This also leaves room for things like allowing the Traitor to keep his hand of White Cards (or at least the cards that he's pulling from the Good Knights' hands while he Taunts them). Then you could have the Traitor take the option of playing one face down before the opposing Knight plays a fight card - which could be a bluff or could add to the Fight value. That might get too complicated or overpowered though, so I'm thinking just have the Traitor stand there and risk the die roll.

Thoughts?
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Brandon Alderman
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In our games...drawing a black card as a traitor during the PoE is always the better option for the traitor and the players. Our group does not place siege engines during the PoE, unless there is a quest that could be fouled of completion for placing one for instance grail or excalibur are just one card away. Doing so is almost always grounds for an accusation.

 
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James Motz
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Making sure you didn't misunderstand - the variant posted is intended to take effect once the Traitor has been revealed. Accusations at this point won't matter.

Also, if your group hasn't seen the devastating effectiveness of the "all siege, all the time" strategy by the Traitor (revealed or not!) then you probably need to try it next time you pull the bad guy. Let them accuse you... it won't help them. Expect a quick win!
 
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Phill Webb
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My personal preference for fixing this would be to have the house rule that a revealed traitor can't take the same action 2 turns in a row.

Phill
 
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Nico
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Alderdust wrote:
In our games...drawing a black card as a traitor during the PoE is always the better option for the traitor and the players. Our group does not place siege engines during the PoE, unless there is a quest that could be fouled of completion for placing one for instance grail or excalibur are just one card away. Doing so is almost always grounds for an accusation.



In our games the siege engine is always the strongest move. Sometimes the black cards even help the good side. Sometimes you have enough white swords but need more swords to finish the game and losing a minor quest can help.

By putting a siege engine every turn you basically block two people in Camelot. One person has to fight the siege engines and one person has to draw cards every turn (it's a little bit better with the blue knight). They have to alternate between these possibilities.

You can even start the game with the siege engines spam if you want. First turn, move to Lancelot's Armor to block it and put down siege engines. You can't be accused (no 6 swords nor 6 siege engines). Then after some turns, put down the 6 siege engine and accuse someone. To prevent this, the player before you has to put down the sixth siege engine. Fine, then put down the 7th.
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Brandon Alderman
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ZdadrDeM wrote:
Alderdust wrote:
In our games...drawing a black card as a traitor during the PoE is always the better option for the traitor and the players. Our group does not place siege engines during the PoE, unless there is a quest that could be fouled of completion for placing one for instance grail or excalibur are just one card away. Doing so is almost always grounds for an accusation.



In our games the siege engine is always the strongest move. Sometimes the black cards even help the good side. Sometimes you have enough white swords but need more swords to finish the game and losing a minor quest can help.

By putting a siege engine every turn you basically block two people in Camelot. One person has to fight the siege engines and one person has to draw cards every turn (it's a little bit better with the blue knight). They have to alternate between these possibilities.

You can even start the game with the siege engines spam if you want. First turn, move to Lancelot's Armor to block it and put down siege engines. You can't be accused (no 6 swords nor 6 siege engines). Then after some turns, put down the 6 siege engine and accuse someone. To prevent this, the player before you has to put down the sixth siege engine. Fine, then put down the 7th.


I think when playing with 7 or 8 Knights there is too much distance between turns for siege e gives to be viable. If you're playing 4 sure but the max players have plenty of spare Knights to fight siege engines.
 
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James Motz
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Freeloading Phill wrote:
My personal preference for fixing this would be to have the house rule that a revealed traitor can't take the same action 2 turns in a row.


Certainly a simple fix. Can't say as I agree with you - it has the inelegant requirement of remembering what happened in a prior turn. Also doesn't address the point that the Revealed Traitor is kind of dull to play already - and now you remove one of the the last decision points that they DO have. Might as well have that player go on a quest to the kitchen for the Holy Beer of Antioch and let a script play out the game.

But this is why there is an internet... we can all have different personal preferences!

ZdadrDeM wrote:
In our games the siege engine is always the strongest move. Sometimes the black cards even help the good side. Sometimes you have enough white swords but need more swords to finish the game and losing a minor quest can help.


So... do you like the proposed variant as a way to pull back on the reins a little? Or does it tip things too much out of the Traitor's control?

Alderdust wrote:
I think when playing with 7 or 8 Knights there is too much distance between turns for siege e gives to be viable.


So... am I reading that you think this proposed variant is not a good idea when you get to 7 or 8 Knights? I would still think it works, because at that scale you should have TWO Traitors, who can still overwhelm the forces of Good with engines of destruction. The variant as proposed above should apply equally to each Revealed Traitor to hopefully keep that that in check.
 
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Nico
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Alderdust wrote:
ZdadrDeM wrote:
Alderdust wrote:
In our games...drawing a black card as a traitor during the PoE is always the better option for the traitor and the players. Our group does not place siege engines during the PoE, unless there is a quest that could be fouled of completion for placing one for instance grail or excalibur are just one card away. Doing so is almost always grounds for an accusation.



In our games the siege engine is always the strongest move. Sometimes the black cards even help the good side. Sometimes you have enough white swords but need more swords to finish the game and losing a minor quest can help.

By putting a siege engine every turn you basically block two people in Camelot. One person has to fight the siege engines and one person has to draw cards every turn (it's a little bit better with the blue knight). They have to alternate between these possibilities.

You can even start the game with the siege engines spam if you want. First turn, move to Lancelot's Armor to block it and put down siege engines. You can't be accused (no 6 swords nor 6 siege engines). Then after some turns, put down the 6 siege engine and accuse someone. To prevent this, the player before you has to put down the sixth siege engine. Fine, then put down the 7th.


I think when playing with 7 or 8 Knights there is too much distance between turns for siege e gives to be viable. If you're playing 4 sure but the max players have plenty of spare Knights to fight siege engines.


That's right, that's why I think the best player count for a game with a traitor is 5 players. I think with 6 or 7 players it's really hard to win as a traitor and with fewer players the siege engine spam is too easy.
 
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Nico
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LazyJ wrote:

ZdadrDeM wrote:
In our games the siege engine is always the strongest move. Sometimes the black cards even help the good side. Sometimes you have enough white swords but need more swords to finish the game and losing a minor quest can help.


So... do you like the proposed variant as a way to pull back on the reins a little? Or does it tip things too much out of the Traitor's control?


Maybe it's too harsh to traitor. If the traitor tries to play a normal game in the beginning he will also sarcrifice/lose some life when needed to keep his cover during the game. Sorry, I can't test it since the owner of this game moved away and I'll play it really seldom since then.
 
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