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Subject: Trump Furious at Conway rss

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Les Marshall
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This story is far too skeletal to truly inform.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/28/trump-furious-over-kellyanne-...

If it's true, what does it say really? IS Conway correct? Would the appointment of Romney to Sec State be a betrayal? Should cabinet appointments be measured solely the personal loyalty of the appointee to one man or should it be loyalty to the country or the party? Would be get the "best" person for the job if all applicants are vetted by a personal loyalty test?

Additionally, what does this say about Conways personal loyalty? Does she believe Trump is capable of making his own decisions about top cabinet posts? If she has doubts about a particular pick, why not address those behind closed doors rather than airing them in public during the transition? Does she seek to divide Trump from his base by suggesting the choice of Romney is disloyal to them?

This may be the first real test of Trumps Presidency if he is forced to choose between his notions of who would best serve the country and making a symbolic concession to Conway who seems to be positioning herself as spokesperson for the base.
 
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Daniel
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Yes, people want a sledgehammer to the establishment. The more establishment neocon types Trump appoints, the more betrayal his base will feel.
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Betrayal or not, whatever it takes to keep Romney out as Secretary of State. I'd have no problems with Romney as Secretary of Commerce or Secretary of Anything Domestic Policy. Foreign policy? No, and hell no. He's far too much under the spell of neocons.

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Les Marshall
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SPIGuy wrote:
Betrayal or not, whatever it takes to keep Romney out as Secretary of State. I'd have no problems with Romney as Secretary of Commerce or Secretary of Anything Domestic Policy. Foreign policy? No, and hell no. He's far too much under the spell of neocons.



To the victor go the spoils. Trump appears the victor and should have the ability like any president before him to name a cabinet. Romney might be a "neocon" as you describe but he's got experience running big state across party lines and at least some appreciation of real world geopolitics. Would you rather see Rudy Giuliani, as Conway suggests, in the position? From my perspective, Romney is far and away the more competent choice to head State.
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The neocon hate is absurd. Yes they made some bad mistakes, but I'm left feeling people don't actually understand the philosophy and are just "AFGHANISTAN IRAQ BAD WARS NEOCONS BAD TOO"
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Les Marshall
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windsagio wrote:
The neocon hate is absurd. Yes they made some bad mistakes, but I'm left feeling people don't actually understand the philosophy and are just "AFGHANISTAN IRAQ BAD WARS NEOCONS BAD TOO"


Good point. "Neocons" has become yet another convenient shorthand for dismissing something out of hand. Regardless of the ultimate debacle that has become Iraq and Afghanistan, there is a valid discussion to be had about promoting democratic governments in traditionally hostile regions. Also, more bluntly, there is strategic value in forward American bases (Air, ground and naval) both to aid allies and to try and make sure actual conflicts aren't on American shores.

It's rather like people dismissing "Libertarians" because "some" of their ideas appear utopian or unworkable.

One of the big questions will be whether Trump hews to his isolationist rhetoric and whether it can coexist in his government with the views of those who believe in more strategic engagement.
 
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I'm perfectly aware of neocon philosophy, thank-you very much. They started out as a coalition of War Democrats and anti-communist Republicans who believed in the old Wilsonian ideal of "making the world safe for democracy." It sounds good on paper, but it constantly leads us into quagmires like Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria while our real enemies sit back and laugh at the stupid, over-committed Americans who are naive enough to believe that they can spread democracy through force of arms.

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SPIGuy wrote:
I'm perfectly aware of neocon philosophy, thank-you very much. They started out as a coalition of War Democrats and anti-communist Republicans who believed in the old Wilsonian ideal of "making the world safe for democracy." It sounds good on paper, but it constantly leads us into quagmires like Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria while our real enemies sit back and laugh at the stupid, over-committed Americans who are naive enough to believe that they can spread democracy through force of arms.



Who are our "real" enemies? For that matter, who are our "real" friends or allies?
 
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Rulesjd wrote:
Who are our "real" enemies? For that matter, who are our "real" friends or allies?


China and North Korea. Both are threats to destabilize Asia, including South Korea (obviously), Japan, Taiwan, and the Philippines.

Iran or Saudi Arabia. Pick one and only one. We've been picking the Iranians for the past 35 years. Ever find it curious that we're over there fighting Muslim extremists, and it's always Saudis and/or Iranians funding and supplying the factions involved? We're being used as a cat's paw by the Saudis to beat up on Iran and its allies. I'd sooner have normalized relations with Iran and tell the Saudis to do their own dirty work.

Our friends are who you'd think they are: Canada, UK, most of the European nations, Japan, South Korea, plus a smattering of smaller countries in the Americas and elsewhere.

 
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Must be all of those Dorf On Golf videos...
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We have TRUMP Jr. 'Miniature Golf' since: "think of the 'tinier hands' of CHILDREN too!" robot
 
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SPIGuy wrote:
Our friends are who you'd think they are: Canada, UK, most of the European nations, Japan, South Korea, plus a smattering of smaller countries in the Americas and elsewhere.


You missed Australia, which it's hard to characterise as smaller. New Xealand isn't tiny either.
 
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Maybe Romney had the best bid?

Whats the point of being president if you can't make money auctioning off cabinet positions?
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AttackFactorZero wrote:
Maybe Romney had the best bid?

Whats the point of being president if you can't make money auctioning off cabinet positions?
I've said before that Romney would sell his grandmother or his soul for an office. I would what the market equivalent rate for souls or grandmothers is these days?
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Rulesjd wrote:
This story is far too skeletal to truly inform.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/28/trump-furious-over-kellyanne-...

If it's true, what does it say really? IS Conway correct? Would the appointment of Romney to Sec State be a betrayal? Should cabinet appointments be measured solely the personal loyalty of the appointee to one man or should it be loyalty to the country or the party? Would be get the "best" person for the job if all applicants are vetted by a personal loyalty test?

Additionally, what does this say about Conway's personal loyalty? Does she believe Trump is capable of making his own decisions about top cabinet posts? If she has doubts about a particular pick, why not address those behind closed doors rather than airing them in public during the transition? Does she seek to divide Trump from his base by suggesting the choice of Romney is disloyal to them?

This may be the first real test of Trumps Presidency if he is forced to choose between his notions of who would best serve the country and making a symbolic concession to Conway who seems to be positioning herself as spokesperson for the base.

Ho! Ho! Ho! Conway is not merely speaking for the base. She's speaking for the greater majority of those who gained control of Trump's campaign and administration.

Or have you forgotten the following news story?


> Excerpts form the September 2, 2016 Huffington Post opinion column and news analysis by Jonathan Goodman entitled:

How Dominionists Gained Control Of The Trump Campaign


Kellyanne Fitzpatrick-Conway and Stephen Bannon

Whether Donald Trump knows it or not, Dominionists are now in control of his presidential campaign. In recent weeks, Trump has appointed Stephen Bannon* of the alt-right Breithbart.com to the position of campaign CEO and Kellyanne Fitzpatrick-Conway* as campaign manager.



Both of these individuals are members of the Council For National Policy, a secretive Dominionist organization. In fact, Kellyanne Fitzpatrick-Conway sits on its executive committee.

Dominionists believe that America is a Christian nation and they oppose the Separation of Church and State. Ted Cruz’s father, Rafael, is a Dominionist preacher. They mix well with Christian Reconstructionists who want to impose strict Biblical laws on America, including execution for adultery, blasphemy, and homosexuality. These two fringe religious groups make up the majority of the Council’s 500 member base along with a colorful array of extreme activists on the far right. The goal of the Council For National Policy is to manipulate government agenda from within.

Nation magazine says that the Council For National Policy “networks wealthy right-wing donors together with top conservative operatives to plan long-term movement strategy.” Marc Ambinder of ABC News said: “The Council For National Policy wants to be the conservative version of the Council on Foreign Relations.” (That’s the organization Ted Cruz’s wife Heidi worked for previously.)

If you’re still not convinced that the Dominionists have taken over the Trump campaign, guess where Kellyanne Fitzpatrick-Conway used to work before making her move over to Trump?



She managed Ted Cruz’s biggest Super PAC called Keep The Promise 1, where she raised over $16,000,000.00 from just one source: New York City hedge fund billionaire Robert Mercer.



Robert Mercer

Together these two ran millions of dollars in anti-Trump ads in defense of Ted Cruz. But once Trump won and Cruz dropped out Mercer switched horses, changed the name of the Super PAC and re-focused on anti-Hillary ads for Donald Trump.




And all of this overseen by the Council For National Policy, which was founded in 1981 by fundamentalist Baptist pastor Tim LaHaye, author of the "Left Behind" book and movie series and the head of the Moral Majority organization.



Founding members of the Council For National Policy also included:



Nelson Bunker Hunt, the billionaire who lost everything trying to corner the world market in silver




and T. Cullen Davis the oil tycoon who stood trial for allegedly forcing his second wife’s 12 year-old daughter into the basement of her home and making her kneel before shooting and killing her.




Former Louisiana State Rep. Woody Jenkins, the Council’s first executive director, told Newsweek quote: “One day before the end of this century, the Council For National Policy will be so influential that no President, regardless of party or philosophy, will be able to ignore us or our concerns or shut us out of the highest levels of government.”

(Edit Insert: When he ran for U.S. Senate in 1996, Jenkins' campaign aide, Tony Perkins, paid David Duke tens of thousands of dollars for the subscriber list of Duke's racist newsletter and Duke's own campaign supporters.)



As the council grew, it entertained some far right wing extremists including: Ku Klux Klan members Richard Shoff ...



and Larry Pratt ...




along with Michael Peroutka who served on the board of the League of the South, a neo-Confederate hate group that advocates for a newly-seceded South ruled by white people.







Other less extreme but still dangerous members of the Council include:



Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council ...




and Kenneth Blackwell of the Family Research Council*.

Both have sat on the Executive Committee of the Council For National Policy. Perkins and Blackwell are the guys that claim that pedophilia is “a homosexual problem,” and that gay people want to “recruit” children.




Mat Staver of the Liberty Counsel was on the Board of Governors. Mat has attempted to push for the re-criminalization of gay sex. He has also described the Boy Scouts as a “playground for pedophiles,” and likened LGBT activists to terrorists.




There is even an amazing crossover of members from the Council on Foreign Relations and the Council for National Policy. Nearly a dozen have shown up in the 2014 directory. With that many members dually active on both councils you have to question if the Council on Foreign Relations hasn’t already been influenced by the Council for National Policy’s agenda.



______________________________________________


*Update: Kenneth Blackwell of the Family Research Council was appointed to head Trump's transition team on matters of social issues. Kellyanne Fitzpatrick-Conway and Stephen Bannon have already been appointed full-fledged positions in the Trump/Pence administration. Although Trump had chosen him to become the next Secretary of Education, Jerry Falwell, Jr. turned down the position. Nonetheless, Trump did appoint Falwell's recommendation, Betsy DeVos, (another Dominionist) to the Secretary of Education position.


 
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Les Marshall
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SPIGuy wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
Who are our "real" enemies? For that matter, who are our "real" friends or allies?


China and North Korea. Both are threats to destabilize Asia, including South Korea (obviously), Japan, Taiwan, and the Philippines.

Iran or Saudi Arabia. Pick one and only one. We've been picking the Iranians for the past 35 years. Ever find it curious that we're over there fighting Muslim extremists, and it's always Saudis and/or Iranians funding and supplying the factions involved? We're being used as a cat's paw by the Saudis to beat up on Iran and its allies. I'd sooner have normalized relations with Iran and tell the Saudis to do their own dirty work.

Our friends are who you'd think they are: Canada, UK, most of the European nations, Japan, South Korea, plus a smattering of smaller countries in the Americas and elsewhere.



Interesting. It's hard to envision N. Korea as anything but an enemy. However, China might be more properly considered a rival. They are a very significant trading partner with their own regional ambitions. Our desires to constrain Chinese expansion of its influence in the region doesn't necessarily raise them to the status of enemy.

Even if you are correct, it stands to reason that we should be prepared to counter Chinese moves with military force if necessary, especially to protect our allies in the area such as Japan and S. Korea. The Chinese have been developing effective area denial weapons and doctrine to minimize our naval advantage. Consequently, the neo-cons plans to expand regional US bases in the oil rich Middle East acts as a tool to tie up those fields and gain more proximity to the regions where Chinese aggression might take place.

Iran or Saudi Arabia? Shiia or Sunni? We tried to effectively control Iran with the installation of the Shah and it backfired. We've propped up the Saudi family with military hardware and eventually drew the enmity of Al-Qaeda. Even if we were to try and pivot back to Iran, it's hard to see how we get past the theological rule of the clerics. If you marginalize the Saudi's you could easily wind up with no dance partner at all.

You might well think of the European nations as allies but, such relationships aren't eternal nor, perhaps, strong enough to weather any storm. During the Iraq War we saw great strains in the NATO alliance, especially with France and Germany. We had overflight problems when sending bombers to Libya. Turkey vacillates between democracy and dictatorship. More importantly, nationalism is again rearing it's ugly head in many countries and resentment toward the US may gain significant power.

While I might have significant disagreements with the neo-cons, especially about the invasion of Iraq, I think it's perhaps important to consider some of their thinking to have value.
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whac3 wrote:
AttackFactorZero wrote:
Maybe Romney had the best bid?

Whats the point of being president if you can't make money auctioning off cabinet positions?
I've said before that Romney would sell his grandmother or his soul for an office. I would what the market equivalent rate for souls or grandmothers is these days?


Offhand, I'd say between $5K-$7K, depending on whether the old gal can still bake a mean apple pie and get around on her own. And souls? We're talking career pols and real estate developers. They have no souls.

Can't believe nobody brought up the real possibility that this is simple political theater by Conway and Trump. By inviting Romney in for an interview, Trump mollifies the traditional wing of the party. By having Conway bitch in public about it, Trump gives himself an out by reluctantly noting that the "Huge!" amount of his supporters voted against people like Romney being included in his cabinet. A delicate balancing act designed to make the president-elect look statesman like yet acknowledging the will of those who voted for him.
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Les Marshall
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remorseless1 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
AttackFactorZero wrote:
Maybe Romney had the best bid?

Whats the point of being president if you can't make money auctioning off cabinet positions?
I've said before that Romney would sell his grandmother or his soul for an office. I would what the market equivalent rate for souls or grandmothers is these days?


Offhand, I'd say between $5K-$7K, depending on whether the old gal can still bake a mean apple pie and get around on her own. And souls? We're talking career pols and real estate developers. They have no souls.

Can't believe nobody brought up the real possibility that this is simple political theater by Conway and Trump. By inviting Romney in for an interview, Trump mollifies the traditional wing of the party. By having Conway bitch in public about it, Trump gives himself an out by reluctantly noting that the "Huge!" amount of his supporters voted against people like Romney being included in his cabinet. A delicate balancing act designed to make the president-elect look statesman like yet acknowledging the will of those who voted for him.


First, I doubt whether Trump is that Machiavellian. It would require a sense of timing and subtlety which he has not shown to date.

Second, it would create the impression that Trump "saw the light of reason from Conway" in a very public way which runs counter to his narcissism.
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Rulesjd wrote:
Deleted because I misread who was being discussed.
 
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sikeospi wrote:
Must be all of those Dorf On Golf videos...


Missed this one earlier.

+1 for Tim Conway reference (wish I had thought of it)
 
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whac3 wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:


First, I doubt whether Trump is that Machiavellian. It would require a sense of timing and subtlety which he has not shown to date.

Second, it would create the impression that Trump "saw the light of reason from Conway" in a very public way which runs counter to his narcissism.

I had the misfortune of being in MA when he was governor and since I worked for a uni was a state employee. Not Machiavellian enough? I beg to differ.


When did Trump have time to be governor?
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qzhdad wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:


First, I doubt whether Trump is that Machiavellian. It would require a sense of timing and subtlety which he has not shown to date.

Second, it would create the impression that Trump "saw the light of reason from Conway" in a very public way which runs counter to his narcissism.

I had the misfortune of being in MA when he was governor and since I worked for a uni was a state employee. Not Machiavellian enough? I beg to differ.


When did Trump have time to be governor?

I totally misread that and thought it said Romney.
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Rulesjd wrote:
SPIGuy wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
Who are our "real" enemies? For that matter, who are our "real" friends or allies?


China and North Korea. Both are threats to destabilize Asia, including South Korea (obviously), Japan, Taiwan, and the Philippines.

Iran or Saudi Arabia. Pick one and only one. We've been picking the Iranians for the past 35 years. Ever find it curious that we're over there fighting Muslim extremists, and it's always Saudis and/or Iranians funding and supplying the factions involved? We're being used as a cat's paw by the Saudis to beat up on Iran and its allies. I'd sooner have normalized relations with Iran and tell the Saudis to do their own dirty work.

Our friends are who you'd think they are: Canada, UK, most of the European nations, Japan, South Korea, plus a smattering of smaller countries in the Americas and elsewhere.



Interesting. It's hard to envision N. Korea as anything but an enemy. However, China might be more properly considered a rival. They are a very significant trading partner with their own regional ambitions. Our desires to constrain Chinese expansion of its influence in the region doesn't necessarily raise them to the status of enemy.

Even if you are correct, it stands to reason that we should be prepared to counter Chinese moves with military force if necessary, especially to protect our allies in the area such as Japan and S. Korea. The Chinese have been developing effective area denial weapons and doctrine to minimize our naval advantage. Consequently, the neo-cons plans to expand regional US bases in the oil rich Middle East acts as a tool to tie up those fields and gain more proximity to the regions where Chinese aggression might take place.

Iran or Saudi Arabia? Shiia or Sunni? We tried to effectively control Iran with the installation of the Shah and it backfired. We've propped up the Saudi family with military hardware and eventually drew the enmity of Al-Qaeda. Even if we were to try and pivot back to Iran, it's hard to see how we get past the theological rule of the clerics. If you marginalize the Saudi's you could easily wind up with no dance partner at all.

You might well think of the European nations as allies but, such relationships aren't eternal nor, perhaps, strong enough to weather any storm. During the Iraq War we saw great strains in the NATO alliance, especially with France and Germany. We had overflight problems when sending bombers to Libya. Turkey vacillates between democracy and dictatorship. More importantly, nationalism is again rearing it's ugly head in many countries and resentment toward the US may gain significant power.

While I might have significant disagreements with the neo-cons, especially about the invasion of Iraq, I think it's perhaps important to consider some of their thinking to have value.

At best, military bases in the Middle East are peripheral to neutralizing an actual Chinese threat. We're going to overfly Iran and/or Russia in order to attack western China? Really? This only works if it's part of a triangulation strategy where we work together with Russia against China. In that event, the Russians would be much better positioned to do that work while we concentrated on protecting our western Pacific allies.

Resentment of the U.S. is directly tied to our habit of sticking a finger in everybody's pie, IMHO. At great expense, we spread our military bases everywhere. Unsurprisingly, this in turn spreads fear of U.S. interference rather than a desire to embrace western democratic and capitalist standards. It's a Cold War mentality in a post-Cold War world which no longer requires constant vigilance and protection from the communist threat.

Fukuyama wrote "The End of History" nearly 25 years ago as a sort of "mission accomplished" statement on the Cold War. His treatise was full of monumentally wrong-headed assumptions and assessments the day it was published, and this only became clearer and clearer as neocons spent the intervening generation trying to bomb the world into utopia. So much so that Fukuyama himself has become disillusioned with the whole movement.

Neocons are like generals who are fully prepared to fight the last war rather than the present one. They've turned the War on Terror into a crusade against Islam. They've lit up the Middle East from Tripoli to Baghdad. If some of them had their way, Tehran would be added to the list. Their accomplishments? War. Death. Destruction. One unstable democracy in Iraq. One corrupt democracy in Afghanistan. The former under attack by loyalists to the old Baathist regime and disaffected Syrian rebels. The latter waiting to collapse into the tribalism which has ruled Afghanistan since before the British first set out to conquer it in 1839. Quite an underwhelming return.

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Rulesjd wrote:
This may be the first real test of Trumps Presidency if he is forced to choose between his notions of who would best serve the country and making a symbolic concession to Conway who seems to be positioning herself as spokesperson for the base.


Or it's just theater. EDIT: Ah I see remorseless1 thought the same. That's how this looks to me. Though I think it's as likely theater in the other direction...designed to make Trump look more Presidential by making it extra public that he's not applying a loyalty test.

I doubt his base is going to feel as "betrayed" by a Romney appointment as Conway indicates. I think she protests too much. But if he's going to appoint someone who was a political enemy, what better way to milk that appointment for all it's worth?
 
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jasonwocky wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
This may be the first real test of Trumps Presidency if he is forced to choose between his notions of who would best serve the country and making a symbolic concession to Conway who seems to be positioning herself as spokesperson for the base.


Or it's just theater. EDIT: Ah I see remorseless1 thought the same. That's how this looks to me. Though I think it's as likely theater in the other direction...designed to make Trump look more Presidential by making it extra public that he's not applying a loyalty test.

I doubt his base is going to feel as "betrayed" by a Romney appointment as Conway indicates. I think she protests too much. But if he's going to appoint someone who was a political enemy, what better way to milk that appointment for all it's worth?


Some of 'em might feel betrayed when it turns out Trump wants to eviscerate Medicare.
 
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