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Champions of Midgard» Forums » General

Subject: Is Gylfir OP? rss

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Brandon Wïse

Connecticut
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Based on my own experience I cannot come up with any definitive conclusions because I rarely play a game with four competent players, but I have been feeling throughout the year the Gylfir's ability seems so much stronger than the others. The Merchant Ship for Gylfir is always a good turn one option, whereas for others this is rarely the case because the opportunity cost turns out to be so much larger when one coin is added onto it. Every time I have kept track of how many times each hero ability is used, which is not as useful as I would like because of poor play among certain opponents, but even in the hands of an incompetent player, Gylfir always ends up using his ability the most.

I consider Asmundr's ability to be the worst. I would rather use my coins to buy a 5th worker and beyond that, the coin to favor token ratio is very unattractive. It makes little sense to waste your workers with multiple trips to the Stave Church.

Ullr's ability is unique in that it is the only one that does not negatively impact other players, so that makes it pretty bad, and along with Dagrun's ability they are too dependent on RNG to be reliable. At least Dagrun has the consolation that you are denying Destiny Cards to others.

Svanhildr's ability is interesting to me, and I feel like it may be better than I perceive, perhaps I am not yet sure of how to use it. In a recent game one of my opponents used Svanhildr to skip a turn fighting enemies and sent all of his warriors to hunt, collecting eight food. Though he lost the game, I found this approach interesting and wonder if there are other ways of using Svanhildr that I have not yet considered.

I now feel funny posting this after seeing another thread entitled "Gylfir the Worthless", but these are the impressions that I get after 20 plays of CoM. Maybe my experience is bias because I have always perceived Gylfir as the best, therefore I select Gylfir on every available opportunity. I just can't imagine Asmundr or Ullr ever being good, and Gylfir has the only ability that is free from random influence. Unlike the Destiny Cards where you can go there as Dagrun and still draw two cards that are unhelpful, all eight of the Merchant Cards are great. Unless Gylfir desperately needs warrior dice and the Merchant Ship is not currently offering any, which seems to be a rare scenario, there is no situation in which a turn one Merchant Ship is not a bad play.
 
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Ben McInroy
Canada
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I don't find any of them to be extremely strong. Gylfir definitely doesn't win most of our games. I notice minor changes in gameplay based on who you are, and blocking based on who the current leader is typically. Who they are may determine what you block at times.

Side note, when hunting you can only collect a max of 6 food.

 
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Brandon Wïse

Connecticut
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He doesn't win most of our games either, but I think that can be most attributed to the skill gap among those who I play with. He does have a plurality of wins in my group, and in every game his hero ability is used more than the others (or tied for first with someone else). So I kind of get the impression that among equally skilled players, those who know how to maximize the potential of their hero ability, Gylfir has a strong advantage because that one coin turns out to mean alot.

I'm not the only one in my group who has suspected this. I also notice Gylfir's perceived strength when I play other characters, thinking about how it would be nice to go to the Merchant Ship but its cost is not worth it compared to other available options. Meanwhile that one coin discount makes it a viable turn one play for Gylfir every time.

"Side not, when hunting you can only collect a max of 6 food."

Woah, never caught that. Thanks!
 
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Jason Brown
United States
Colorado Springs
Colorado
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This thread's timing is great as another player just posted a thread saying that Gylfir was obviously the weakest hero character.
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Andrew Kapish
United States
Brunswick
Ohio
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Total unplayed games in my collection: 7
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1. Gylfir player goes to the merchant ship.
2. I go to the troll.
3. Gylfir player gets my blame token.

 
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Brandon Wïse

Connecticut
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4. Gylfir can now afford to kill a Monster and doesn't care about blame?

The Troll thing can happen to anyone so I don't see how it is a criticism of Gylfir. Unless you are implying that turn one, seat one should select Troll every time.
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Grant Whitesell

Oklahoma
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He can get a headstart *if* he goes first *or* nobody uses the merchant ship space until it gets to him. however that does not always translate into opportunity or capability, and his advantage fizzles and even disappears relative to the others after the first round or so. I'll wager that even IF he gets his benefit every single turn, he still loses to a player of equal skill piloting the more VP-centric leaders.

My ranking of them is completely opposite of yours. Getting paid in VP for doing what you were going to do anyway is powerful in nearly every game where it is an option.
 
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jooice ZP
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I am not going to rank them, because there is now a new thread talking about that.
I will say that Gylfir is very very susceptible to other' layers choices, because he has to KEEP being first player. and players regardless of skill always see the worth of going first.

90% of the time the first player will take the merchant ship, Gylfir needs to either pick that as his first action, or ensure he is going first in the next round, otherwise his ability is worthless.

In a 2 player game his ability is definitely better since there is a chance the other player will choose a different spot.

I could see picking Gylfir if you are about to go first in the first round, i would never do so otherwise.
(i wouldn't say he is under powered, he just requires the most skill to play with)
 
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Brandon Wïse

Connecticut
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GrantZilla1979 wrote:
He can get a headstart *if* he goes first *or* nobody uses the merchant ship space until it gets to him. however that does not always translate into opportunity or capability, and his advantage fizzles and even disappears relative to the others after the first round or so. I'll wager that even IF he gets his benefit every single turn, he still loses to a player of equal skill piloting the more VP-centric leaders.

My ranking of them is completely opposite of yours. Getting paid in VP for doing what you were going to do anyway is powerful in nearly every game where it is an option.


But how often does Gylfir not get to use the Merchant Ship on turn one? In the first round if there are dice available then it will likely be taken by the first seat, but otherwise I feel like the cost is too great for other players to justify putting such a priority on the Merchant Ship.

The other reason why I value Gylfir is that he seems to have the best negative value. No other character's ability deprives something as desirable as the Merchant Ship, which seems to be in this weird place of being good enough to be desirable but not aggressive enough to be a turn one priority for other characters. Unless I have alot of dice I'm not going to miss taking Hafters or Blacksmith on turn one in favor of Merchant Ship, but when I'm Gylfir I don't feel the tempo loss as badly because the next turn the setup for the following turn is much stronger.

I don't mean to suggest that all eight Merchant Ships go to Gylfir, usually I find that 4 or 5 are going to him, which I still feel is pretty significant. And except for Ullr, I don't have any other character that is consistently using its hero ability 5 times in each game. And like I mentioned before, I don't see Ullr's ability as very consequential because there is no negative value to it. I don't care if Ullr rolls his doubles because it does not deprive me of anything, whereas I do get annoyed when Gylfir takes the Merchant Ship because those are goods that I could have used.

Interesting side note, Gylfir and Ullr have the most wins in my group, winning 5 and 3 of the last 11 games. While obviously not definitive, this suggests that the frequency of using hero abilities does have a correlation with actually winning the game.


jooice wrote:

90% of the time the first player will take the merchant ship, Gylfir needs to either pick that as his first action, or ensure he is going first in the next round, otherwise his ability is worthless.


I find it surprising that you say this because I have not seen it. Beside the cost, the goods being sold aren't always what people are looking for.

Generally I value the 5th worker over whatever the Merchant Ship is selling so in the early game I am trying to save my coins until I can get a worker, and then afterward I am focused on maintaining a high dice pool with hopes of killing at least three enemies every two turns. So I don't always have a coin available to use the Merchant Ship.

 
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Grant Whitesell

Oklahoma
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5th Worker? Are you playing with 2 all the time?
 
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Brandon Wïse

Connecticut
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No, why should that make a difference?
 
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Joseph Reissmann
United States
Wausau
Wisconsin
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I'll be honest - we're throwing science at the wall here to see what sticks.
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You only have five workers available in a two player game. For three or four players you start with three workers with the ability to buy a fourth.
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jooice ZP
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FCBM wrote:
[q="GrantZilla1979"]
Generally I value the 5th worker over whatever the Merchant Ship is selling so in the early game I am trying to save my coins until I can get a worker, and then afterward I am focused on maintaining a high dice pool with hopes of killing at least three enemies every two turns. So I don't always have a coin available to use the Merchant Ship.



Besides the 4 over 5 workers issue from above,

I would think that if you really really want that early worker then you should definitely take the merchant ship spot.
trade in 1 resource to take 3 with the wood and food you start with that is the 5 you need to trade in at the market to buy a first round extra worker.

And if the merchant ship gives warriors, then that works into your recruiting strategy even more.

gathering some wood and meat is generally such a good thing that it is definitely worth the gold in my opinion. The only other potentially great spot in the first round is the rune smith, some of those are amazing.
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Brandon Wïse

Connecticut
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Nessus77 wrote:
You only have five workers available in a two player game. For three or four players you start with three workers with the ability to buy a fourth.


Right, should have said "extra worker". The point remains.


jooice wrote:

Besides the 4 over 5 workers issue from above,

I would think that if you really really want that early worker then you should definitely take the merchant ship spot.
trade in 1 resource to take 3 with the wood and food you start with that is the 5 you need to trade in at the market to buy a first round extra worker.

And if the merchant ship gives warriors, then that works into your recruiting strategy even more.

gathering some wood and meat is generally such a good thing that it is definitely worth the gold in my opinion. The only other potentially great spot in the first round is the rune smith, some of those are amazing.


Yeah that makes sense. I usually use the stalls toward that end but I see how it can work either way. I prefer to pursue dice because I like to avoid relying on the Market.
 
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jooice ZP
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I dont rely on the market.
I use it for this reason and for tough times around round 6-7.

Not very often
 
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Brandon Wïse

Connecticut
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jooice wrote:
I dont rely on the market.
I use it for this reason and for tough times around round 6-7.

Not very often


Well I meant for this particular purpose. If someone else is looking to do the same thing and they take the Market before I do then they get the worker first. With two Draugrs available it is easier to guarantee a Draugr than a Market.
 
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jooice ZP
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True about the draugr, but that will possibly only help you in the next round.

There are 3 ways to get enough resources to exchange with the market (2 coin tile, wood and beef tile, merchant ship)
The last one is the rune that can give u 4 coins but then u don't need the market.

Once you have the resources that was a good first placement in my opinion, if u go for the market then u alone can accomplish the task(barring the resource rune)

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