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Subject: 7 New Factions (Update 3-6-17) rss

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Matt Larsen
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Update 1 (3-6-17):
First of all, we want to say thank you to everyone for all of your great feedback! This is a fantastic community. After hearing your feedback for the last few months, we decided it was time to make a couple of changes.

First of all, we received consistent reports that Gnomes were too powerful, and we started to see that in some of our games as well. Therefore, we have made a couple of changes to help bring them into balance. We changed their SH income from 4p to 1p. Also, we changed their SH power to count as income rather than an end of turn bonus, which eliminates the extra workers after the final turn (and just makes way more sense).

Secondly, the number one piece of feedback we received was that almost everyone hated the Pirates. We tried to tinker around with them (some of you had some interesting ideas), but ultimately we decided to just replace them. This partly due to the fact that we had a replacement team that was just way more fun to play, the Apostles. The Apostles were a team that we had developed at the time of the original release of 7 teams but had not play tested them enough to feel comfortable including. However, now after a few more months of play, we feel good about putting them in with the original group, and we hope you love to play them as much as we do.

Below you can find the updated Gnomes and Apostles boards, as well as an updated set of explanations for the factions.


Original Post:
This summer a group of us that play Terra Mystica were looking for some more variety to the base game. So we decided to create our own new set of seven teams, one for each terrain type. We've had a blast creating the teams and playing with them for the last few months and have gotten some great feedback from other players that have tried them out. Now we want to put them out there for everyone to play. They've each been played 10-20 times, and we feel they are very balanced, but we would love your feedback. If you play a game, shoot me your scores and what you did and didn't like. Thanks and have fun!

A mysterious race of luminescent beings found in swamps and marshes, Wisps have the ability to appear seemingly out of nowhere and are constantly looking to expand their territory.



Having shunned religion and mysticism to reach a higher plane of logic and reasoning, the Logicians are constantly looking for knowledge in everything around them.



Masons are a group of master builders. Even their mostly lowly dwelling inspires with the craftsmanship and artistry of a grand cathedral. It's no wonder that holy men flock to their cities to serve.



Idolator life centers around their powerful religion, worshiping a stable of gods. But ultimately, it's gold that is at the heart of everything they do, it is infused in their being.



This group of mountain men live their lives felling trees, which is a major advantage when the Lumberjacks want to terraform forest terrain. Their simple log cabins are a staple of the Lumberjack life.



Know only as 'Apostles', this group of religious zealots devote their lives to spreading their message to every corner of the land.



These Gnomes may be small, but they have a powerful connection to the earth. Working with the land always brings them riches. They are renowned for their forest workshops filled with eager workers.





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Joel Schuster
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
Interesting stuff. I guess Gnomes are fried when Lumberjacks are in the game though?

Terraforming green to gray for free all the time? The last part of Lumberjack description is confusing me. It says only terraform one hex for free per action but then it may be used several times per action phase. I guess bottomline is only usable once per action, otherwise this seems pretty overpowered.
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Attila Kisvári
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
Are you playing them against old factions?
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Dániel Lányi
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
Some of these seem balanced but the pirates ability to shut off shipping (while thematic) seems like it either won't matter, or will destoy someone's whole game. What were your experiences with it?
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bob lawblaw
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
wallwaster wrote:
Some of these seem balanced but the pirates ability to shut off shipping (while thematic) seems like it either won't matter, or will destoy someone's whole game. What were your experiences with it?


This. I can't imagine that ever being a fun thing to play with or against.

And the pirate stronghold is insane too. Take a FAV11 and then also copy someone else's FAV11 for the rest of the game too? Of course except for when it's a TP>>3 round bonus, then you even have the flexibility to switch over and copy somebody else's FAV10 instead.

If pirates were a real faction, I don't think there's any combination of initial setup conditions they wouldn't be an automatic first pick literally 100% of the time.


That being said, other than the pirates clearly being awful for the game, these are some of the best fan-made factions I've seen in my opinion. There's probably some other balance issues throughout, but in general I think these are really creative and bring some interesting new ground to the game (I especially like the logicians thematically shunning priests).
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Matt Larsen
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
Umbratus wrote:
Interesting stuff. I guess Gnomes are fried when Lumberjacks are in the game though?

Terraforming green to gray for free all the time? The last part of Lumberjack description is confusing me. It says only terraform one hex for free per action but then it may be used several times per action phase. I guess bottomline is only usable once per action, otherwise this seems pretty overpowered.


Depends upon how many people are in the game. In 4 or 5 players, it seems that green teams have enough options that it's less of a factor, but in 3 player games in comes into play more.

Your interpretation is correct. The power can only be used once per action (turn) Otherwise it could be way too powerful, but it can be used multiple times per action phase (round).
 
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Matt Larsen
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
Atimati wrote:
Are you playing them against old factions?


Absolutely you can play them along with the old teams! We balanced them to make that happen.
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Matt Larsen
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
wallwaster wrote:
Some of these seem balanced but the pirates ability to shut off shipping (while thematic) seems like it either won't matter, or will destoy someone's whole game. What were your experiences with it?


The ability of Pirates to block shipping is on the weaker side as far as powers go. In our games, the biggest impacts have come in relation to the end game scoring. You can plan your whole game around it, but that means forgetting about, or at least significantly delaying, your stronghold. It's hard to find the resources to fully commit to both, which is why the blockade generally seems to be more of power that is used only when the right opportunity arises late game.
 
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Matt Larsen
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
bob654 wrote:
wallwaster wrote:
Some of these seem balanced but the pirates ability to shut off shipping (while thematic) seems like it either won't matter, or will destoy someone's whole game. What were your experiences with it?


This. I can't imagine that ever being a fun thing to play with or against.

And the pirate stronghold is insane too. Take a FAV11 and then also copy someone else's FAV11 for the rest of the game too? Of course except for when it's a TP>>3 round bonus, then you even have the flexibility to switch over and copy somebody else's FAV10 instead.

If pirates were a real faction, I don't think there's any combination of initial setup conditions they wouldn't be an automatic first pick literally 100% of the time.


That being said, other than the pirates clearly being awful for the game, these are some of the best fan-made factions I've seen in my opinion. There's probably some other balance issues throughout, but in general I think these are really creative and bring some interesting new ground to the game (I especially like the logicians thematically shunning priests).


Thanks for the feedback, both good and bad. The Logicians were my brain child, so I especially appreciate your sentiments there.

I agree that at first look Pirate seem very powerful, but they were consistently one of our worst teams. We kept having to make them better and better. If the people around you are paying attention, they can really limit the effectiveness of the Pirate's power. Please give them a play and let me know how it goes. If you dominate with them, let me know your strat, so I can use it in the future
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bob lawblaw
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
mjenslarsen wrote:
bob654 wrote:
wallwaster wrote:
Some of these seem balanced but the pirates ability to shut off shipping (while thematic) seems like it either won't matter, or will destoy someone's whole game. What were your experiences with it?


This. I can't imagine that ever being a fun thing to play with or against.

And the pirate stronghold is insane too. Take a FAV11 and then also copy someone else's FAV11 for the rest of the game too? Of course except for when it's a TP>>3 round bonus, then you even have the flexibility to switch over and copy somebody else's FAV10 instead.

If pirates were a real faction, I don't think there's any combination of initial setup conditions they wouldn't be an automatic first pick literally 100% of the time.


That being said, other than the pirates clearly being awful for the game, these are some of the best fan-made factions I've seen in my opinion. There's probably some other balance issues throughout, but in general I think these are really creative and bring some interesting new ground to the game (I especially like the logicians thematically shunning priests).


Thanks for the feedback, both good and bad. The Logicians were my brain child, so I especially appreciate your sentiments there.

I agree that at first look Pirate seem very powerful, but they were consistently one of our worst teams. We kept having to make them better and better. If the people around you are paying attention, they can really limit the effectiveness of the Pirate's power. Please give them a play and let me know how it goes. If you dominate with them, let me know your strat, so I can use it in the future


Unfortunately my f2f TM playgroup has all but evaporated, so I doubt I will ever get to play with these, let alone enough to feel that I have sufficient play data. But if you'll indulge a bit more theorycrafting from a top snellman player, here is the strategy for pirates as I see it:

Build stronghold turn 1 is a must. It gets you a favor so the usual favor vs stronghold ability trade-off is highly mitigated in favor of the stronghold. FAV11 gives you at least 22VP in a winning game (when I teach strategy to new players, I often give them the thought problem of 'would you take FAV11 if it just said 22VP on it instead?', that usually hammers home it's value). So the unique ability to essentially have 2 copies of the same favor means that pirates are working with a +22VP faction ability (by comparison the witches have a +15VP faction ability for their winning game with 3 towns). That's if you just static-copy FAV11 for the whole game. Add to that that you can now also copy a FAV10 from another player during a round with TP>>3 when you plan to build 3 or 4 TPs and now you have a faction ability that's giving you somewhere between +31VP and +36VP a game. I'm sure there would be some outside times when the flexibility to copy other favors would be beneficial as well.

So I feel pretty confident that their stronghold ability is the best in the game in terms of actual endgame VP value (the only true value that matters in TM).

I play tournament rules 90% of the time - original board, 4-players; some of this next part may not apply to other setup-conditions.

Now their shipping blocking ability: as someone else alluded to, this ability just seems like a negative play experience to me. I see what you were going for thematically, but outside of a 2-player game, all it's really going to do is king-make in 95% of situations. It doesn't give you any benefit directly; it's an offensive capability. The problem is, in multiplayer TM purely offensive moves rarely payoff, because there's 2-3 other players in the game making more efficient moves and you just murder-suicide with your target. That's the shipping blocking in a nutshell. Yes, there is the possibility that you're in 2nd for network, and you have the potential to breakup somebody else's network to flip the final scoring, but a lot of the time that's not going to be the case because... On the original map there's only a few spots where the ability is going to come into play without the need for double/triple shoveling. Most notably B3 to A7 through r2 (there's a couple of other places too, but they cut off much smaller segments of river).

Which brings me to my final point: digs with pirates. This would seem to be the weak-point to the board (and maybe weak enough to throw the whole thing off). The pirates don't really appear to have any 'dig-cheat'. Every board has a dig-cheat. Some are obvious (sandstorm on nomads), some are more subtle (e.g. cultists free cult-levels and power from their leech ability makes you more likely to get ACT5 & ACT6 and benefit from cult bonus shovels). Basically each board's dig-cheat is it's way to avoid spending it's worker income on digging. Pirates didn't get one. There's no obvious dig ability, they don't have extra access to power in some way, they don't start with shipping like mermaids, etc.

How would I play pirates? I would probably totally ignore their shipping block ability unless it came into play as an option in round 6. SH round 1 for FAV11 and copy point favors for maximum game each round. I'd probably either start as a classic G5-E10 east-coast darklings start or something like a C1-E5 with an early BON4 or BON8 to get shipped around the upper river (either of these options is to minimize the need to ever do more than a single dig). Either way you are going to have issues if you don't have access to some shovels from BON1 or ACT5/6.

So all in all, I guess I could see how pirates would struggle despite having the strongest faction scoring ability in the game. TM is all about snowballing economically, so if you can't get out buildings early from lack of 'dig-cheat', you're not going to score as much from the ability.




As a side note: regardless of the balance of the pirates or any of the other boards, I appreciate your design goals with these factions. I feel like these embody the spirit of the game far better than the bonus landscape tile rules that were released a few months ago that, in my opinion, are a total train wreck. If I were going to add additional expansion material into future f2f games, I would definitely consider using your homemade faction boards before the bonus landscapes. So I hope I didn't come off as too critical, because I do appreciate the work you put into these.

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Anthony Heitzinger
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
My initial impressions were that Logicians were OP and Masons were ridiculously weak.

For the Logicians, it seems being locked out of the cult tracks would be a huge disadvantage, but it's really not. There's plenty of existing factions that completely ignore the cult track as is (Halflings, Engineers, usually Nomads, etc). For the logicians, in exchange for that weakness, they start with a crap lot of power, offering them a rush start that rivals the Swarmlings, or they can go for a slower start that rushes the first temple (as 5 power a turn is op), or they can start with the stronghold as that ability is quite good and unique. In fact, if the priest scroll is in play, theoretically you could still win a cult track by grabbing that scroll a few times and dumping your priests into it (probably not worth it though).

For the Masons, their passive ability will at best get you 2 free priests later in the game (which is nothing. Compare to the Witches that get 5vp for each city), and their stronghold power is a weaker Giant or Nomads power. Combine that with their weak board that has fewer workers under dwellings, and a very expensive stronghold which you have to get, and you have a faction that screams meh.

Looking closer, the Wisps also seem really strong. They have a crazy strong passive power that you can abuse to rush a city or two, and they have a cheap stronghold they can build that gives them an incredible ability to drop down anywhere they want- namely somewhere where they can build another city.

Overall, seems fun. Maybe I'll give them a try sometime (though it'll be a good while. It's hard enough to get regular games of TM in, let alone fan-made faction ones).

 
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Matt Larsen
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
bob654 wrote:
mjenslarsen wrote:
bob654 wrote:
wallwaster wrote:
Some of these seem balanced but the pirates ability to shut off shipping (while thematic) seems like it either won't matter, or will destoy someone's whole game. What were your experiences with it?


This. I can't imagine that ever being a fun thing to play with or against.

And the pirate stronghold is insane too. Take a FAV11 and then also copy someone else's FAV11 for the rest of the game too? Of course except for when it's a TP>>3 round bonus, then you even have the flexibility to switch over and copy somebody else's FAV10 instead.

If pirates were a real faction, I don't think there's any combination of initial setup conditions they wouldn't be an automatic first pick literally 100% of the time.


That being said, other than the pirates clearly being awful for the game, these are some of the best fan-made factions I've seen in my opinion. There's probably some other balance issues throughout, but in general I think these are really creative and bring some interesting new ground to the game (I especially like the logicians thematically shunning priests).


Thanks for the feedback, both good and bad. The Logicians were my brain child, so I especially appreciate your sentiments there.

I agree that at first look Pirate seem very powerful, but they were consistently one of our worst teams. We kept having to make them better and better. If the people around you are paying attention, they can really limit the effectiveness of the Pirate's power. Please give them a play and let me know how it goes. If you dominate with them, let me know your strat, so I can use it in the future


Unfortunately my f2f TM playgroup has all but evaporated, so I doubt I will ever get to play with these, let alone enough to feel that I have sufficient play data. But if you'll indulge a bit more theorycrafting from a top snellman player, here is the strategy for pirates as I see it:

Build stronghold turn 1 is a must. It gets you a favor so the usual favor vs stronghold ability trade-off is highly mitigated in favor of the stronghold. FAV11 gives you at least 22VP in a winning game (when I teach strategy to new players, I often give them the thought problem of 'would you take FAV11 if it just said 22VP on it instead?', that usually hammers home it's value). So the unique ability to essentially have 2 copies of the same favor means that pirates are working with a +22VP faction ability (by comparison the witches have a +15VP faction ability for their winning game with 3 towns). That's if you just static-copy FAV11 for the whole game. Add to that that you can now also copy a FAV10 from another player during a round with TP>>3 when you plan to build 3 or 4 TPs and now you have a faction ability that's giving you somewhere between +31VP and +36VP a game. I'm sure there would be some outside times when the flexibility to copy other favors would be beneficial as well.

So I feel pretty confident that their stronghold ability is the best in the game in terms of actual endgame VP value (the only true value that matters in TM).

I play tournament rules 90% of the time - original board, 4-players; some of this next part may not apply to other setup-conditions.

Now their shipping blocking ability: as someone else alluded to, this ability just seems like a negative play experience to me. I see what you were going for thematically, but outside of a 2-player game, all it's really going to do is king-make in 95% of situations. It doesn't give you any benefit directly; it's an offensive capability. The problem is, in multiplayer TM purely offensive moves rarely payoff, because there's 2-3 other players in the game making more efficient moves and you just murder-suicide with your target. That's the shipping blocking in a nutshell. Yes, there is the possibility that you're in 2nd for network, and you have the potential to breakup somebody else's network to flip the final scoring, but a lot of the time that's not going to be the case because... On the original map there's only a few spots where the ability is going to come into play without the need for double/triple shoveling. Most notably B3 to A7 through r2 (there's a couple of other places too, but they cut off much smaller segments of river).

Which brings me to my final point: digs with pirates. This would seem to be the weak-point to the board (and maybe weak enough to throw the whole thing off). The pirates don't really appear to have any 'dig-cheat'. Every board has a dig-cheat. Some are obvious (sandstorm on nomads), some are more subtle (e.g. cultists free cult-levels and power from their leech ability makes you more likely to get ACT5 & ACT6 and benefit from cult bonus shovels). Basically each board's dig-cheat is it's way to avoid spending it's worker income on digging. Pirates didn't get one. There's no obvious dig ability, they don't have extra access to power in some way, they don't start with shipping like mermaids, etc.

How would I play pirates? I would probably totally ignore their shipping block ability unless it came into play as an option in round 6. SH round 1 for FAV11 and copy point favors for maximum game each round. I'd probably either start as a classic G5-E10 east-coast darklings start or something like a C1-E5 with an early BON4 or BON8 to get shipped around the upper river (either of these options is to minimize the need to ever do more than a single dig). Either way you are going to have issues if you don't have access to some shovels from BON1 or ACT5/6.

So all in all, I guess I could see how pirates would struggle despite having the strongest faction scoring ability in the game. TM is all about snowballing economically, so if you can't get out buildings early from lack of 'dig-cheat', you're not going to score as much from the ability.




As a side note: regardless of the balance of the pirates or any of the other boards, I appreciate your design goals with these factions. I feel like these embody the spirit of the game far better than the bonus landscape tile rules that were released a few months ago that, in my opinion, are a total train wreck. If I were going to add additional expansion material into future f2f games, I would definitely consider using your homemade faction boards before the bonus landscapes. So I hope I didn't come off as too critical, because I do appreciate the work you put into these.



I think you are on track with much of your assessment. Though as you said towards the end, we have found in our play that the overall make-up of the faction prevents you from realizing the full potential of the favors that you think maybe you 'should'. Ultimately, we hit right in our balanced scoring zone with Pirates every time with this configuration. I hope some day you get the chance to try it out. Thanks again for your input. I love the discussion.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
Rachelisapoopy wrote:
Masons were ridiculously weak.


It only takes 4 dwellings to make a town. That's pretty sweet and why they had to pull off 2 worker income. You could probably make 4 towns with this faction easy.
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Matt Larsen
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
Rachelisapoopy wrote:
My initial impressions were that Logicians were OP and Masons were ridiculously weak.

For the Logicians, it seems being locked out of the cult tracks would be a huge disadvantage, but it's really not. There's plenty of existing factions that completely ignore the cult track as is (Halflings, Engineers, usually Nomads, etc). For the logicians, in exchange for that weakness, they start with a crap lot of power, offering them a rush start that rivals the Swarmlings, or they can go for a slower start that rushes the first temple (as 5 power a turn is op), or they can start with the stronghold as that ability is quite good and unique. In fact, if the priest scroll is in play, theoretically you could still win a cult track by grabbing that scroll a few times and dumping your priests into it (probably not worth it though).

For the Masons, their passive ability will at best get you 2 free priests later in the game (which is nothing. Compare to the Witches that get 5vp for each city), and their stronghold power is a weaker Giant or Nomads power. Combine that with their weak board that has fewer workers under dwellings, and a very expensive stronghold which you have to get, and you have a faction that screams meh.

Looking closer, the Wisps also seem really strong. They have a crazy strong passive power that you can abuse to rush a city or two, and they have a cheap stronghold they can build that gives them an incredible ability to drop down anywhere they want- namely somewhere where they can build another city.

Overall, seems fun. Maybe I'll give them a try sometime (though it'll be a good while. It's hard enough to get regular games of TM in, let alone fan-made faction ones).



The Logicians are my favorite teams to play, because there is so much flexibility in gameplay. They have some really great advantages, but their lack of ability to get priests is a real counterbalance. It takes a lot of resources and gameplay focus to keep them competitive on the cult track.

You hit the nail on the head with the layout of the original board being a major hinderance for Masons. We were consistently scoring 30 more points with them on the expansion board than on the original, so we compromised. They are probably on the weaker side when played on the original board, but people still win with them. My wife will pick them every time.

Wisps are super fun. You can really build and get your economy going, but you have to focus on VPs to score. Gotta go for three cities to win.

Hope you get a chance to play them.
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Matt Larsen
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
Rachelisapoopy wrote:
Masons were ridiculously weak.


It only takes 4 dwellings to make a town. That's pretty sweet and why they had to pull off 2 worker income. You could probably make 4 towns with this faction easy.


We've only had one game with four cities, and that was on the expansion board. The layout of the original board makes it much harder to do, because you need so many spades and/or bridges to make the spaces and connections.

We had to pull off the two workers, because they were too good otherwise.

Try them out and let me know how it goes!
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
Very nice work! I wanted to write a longer statement of appreciation and discussion of the factions first, but I had to refute the claim that Masons were too weak. I still haven't really thought too hard about them yet to write up my opinions.

Do you and your friends play on snellman? I couldn't figure out if you had a username. It might be good to have some 1300+ players in a group see if they could use any of these factions to break the game vs regular factions.
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J
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
First of all a quick BGG lesson.

imageid=3277141original becomes



which will make your first post much easier to read if you do it for all the images.

Overall very cool. Like what you did there.

Wisps seem really simple. Their Stronghold is comparable to Witches and Nomads although as we all know you likely don't want to go too far away so you can make the connections easier. Seems like they'd be a dangerous early pick before you know what other factions are present due to the amount of terraforming without building they can do.

Logicians might be too good. Not sure. While it's true they are terrible on cults their ridiculous income can probably overcome that and their shipping upgrade is arguable the cheapest in the game.

Masons seem really really cool in concept. In total most factions have 28 power between all their buildings. Masons have 34. While 5 Towns would probably be a little ambitious 4 towns seems almost guaranteed for them.

I think Idolators are pretty underpowered. Money is a very very tight resource in this game and is often hard to come by enough of. Their trading posts don't provide them with enough to offset this and certainly not enough to make good use of their faction ability. I also scratch my head at their sanctuary. Compared to say Darklings or Fakirs who can get use their priests for benefits and get vp, getting 3 vp alone seems extremely underwhelming. The ability to form a town with 2 buildings is bizarre too since those 2 buildings would need to be your Sanctuary and Stronghold and you would need Fire 2 to do it. I think they need something more than what they currently have.

Now Lumberjacks I do not like. Giving them effectively 2 home terrains after building their stronghold just seems unfair to green and makes green a risky pick. Not a fan and I don't think factions should be allowed easy access to another factions home. Even the factions in fire and ice that can mimic other factions are usually restrained in some way to make it difficult to go after their home tiles.

Pirates I do not like either. Players should be focused on doing whats good for them, not hurting random players. Players located near the Pirates are at a huge disadvantage whereas players located far away from them gain an unwarrented advantage due to having a leg up in end of game scoring and not having their movement restricted. Abilities like this reek of king making and I would never play with it.

Gnomes are simple yet effective with their massive income gains. Kinda like logicians but without being restricted on the cults. I'd be afraid of an insane cascading effect and being able to turn 1 worker into 2 coins an a spade might be too strong.
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James Wolfpacker
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
allstar64 wrote:
Gnomes are simple yet effective with their massive income gains. Kinda like logicians but without being restricted on the cults. I'd be afraid of an insane cascading effect and being able to turn 1 worker into 2 coins an a spade might be too strong.


This is true... with the SH, why ever have a D when a TP is worth 2w 2c and 1pw (or 2pw)? ACT3 or BON6 or BON7+(3pw to 1w) is going to be a SH+TP opening every time.
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Matt Larsen
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
Very nice work! I wanted to write a longer statement of appreciation and discussion of the factions first, but I had to refute the claim that Masons were too weak. I still haven't really thought too hard about them yet to write up my opinions.

Do you and your friends play on snellman? I couldn't figure out if you had a username. It might be good to have some 1300+ players in a group see if they could use any of these factions to break the game vs regular factions.


Thanks for your kind words. Great idea, but I don't think any of us play on snellman. We are fortunate enough to get our fix in f2f games. If you know anyone that might want to try their hand, please let them know about this post or send them the teams. We want as many people as possible to try them out.
 
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Matt Larsen
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
allstar64 wrote:
First of all a quick BGG lesson.


Thank you very much for the tip. I am clearly new at this. I love your analysis along with everyone else's. There are some great nuggets in there that we have clearly seen in our games. Hopefully, people will get some chances to actually play, though I know it can be tough to get f2f games.

We have never run into issues with Lumberjacks against green teams. With Witches power and Gnomes digging advantage, they are pretty hard to block off (and if you're picking Auren, you're not really trying to win anyway)

Your point about Pirates is good feedback. Another poster had some of the same feedback, and it was something we discussed in our group more than once too. I personally like it, because I feel like TM can get to the point where it is too much played in silos and needs more team to team interaction. But if lots of people hate it, it might be worth taking a look at. That's part of the reason we wanted to put these team out there.
 
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Ola Caster
Sweden
Uppsala
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
One alternative would be to make the ability vp-generating instead. For each such river space, they gain one vp (or something). Perhaps capped at 3 vps per round. However, given that they seem quite strong anyway, this would probably require a change to the SH. A cost of 4w+10c perhaps?
 
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Dániel Lányi
Hungary
Budapest
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
kruppy wrote:
One alternative would be to make the ability vp-generating instead. For each such river space, they gain one vp (or something). Perhaps capped at 3 vps per round. However, given that they seem quite strong anyway, this would probably require a change to the SH. A cost of 4w+10c perhaps?


I think it would be okay to just drop it altogether. More (and flexible) favors and cheap shipping seems good enough, and this doesn't impact the pirates much, just other players. As the OP said, in one of four games it impacted endgame network scoring, which means it might be a 12 point swing or nothing. But that swing might not even favor the pirates, just win the game for a third party.
 
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Robert Crawford
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
Neat stuff! A couple things on the Idolaters: When do you choose your 2 starting cult bonuses? When you choose the faction, or after all players have chosen their factions? I'd imagine the rule should be the same as when the Ice Maidens choose their starting favor tile in the expansion; can't remember when that happens.

Also, it was already mentioned, but the ability to found a town with only 2 buildings is extremely limited in a weird way. It requires both a specific favor tile, and for the 2 buildings to be stronghold and sanctuary. And that would also be a weak position if the SA-SH distance end game bonus tile is used. Seems unlikely to matter often at all.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
Instead of the SA allowing 2 hexes, how about allowing all towns to be just 3 hexes but 7pw or 6pw with FAV5.
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Matt Larsen
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Re: 7 New Factions (Complete Boards)
GendoIkari_82 wrote:
Neat stuff! A couple things on the Idolaters: When do you choose your 2 starting cult bonuses? When you choose the faction, or after all players have chosen their factions? I'd imagine the rule should be the same as when the Ice Maidens choose their starting favor tile in the expansion; can't remember when that happens.

Also, it was already mentioned, but the ability to found a town with only 2 buildings is extremely limited in a weird way. It requires both a specific favor tile, and for the 2 buildings to be stronghold and sanctuary. And that would also be a weak position if the SA-SH distance end game bonus tile is used. Seems unlikely to matter often at all.


Thanks! We have always played that Idolators select their cults after all factions are chosen but before the Bonus tiles are selected for the first round.

Your assessment of the SA is on point. We intentionally made it limited to make sure to keep it balanced. Allowing for all towns to be 6 power or 3 spaces would have been too good, unless we made other changes. It's just a little wrinkle to add some variety to the game.
 
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