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Subject: Limited or unlimited field of fire? rss

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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

Hope everyone had a good holiday!!!

I was wondering... should there be an unlimited field of fire for 'guns'?

That is to say artillery... should it be the same for all guns?

Should 'guns' designated for indirect fire have unlimited field of fire?

Should the field of fire be type specific?

That's just a few of the situations that I was wondering about, what can you add and why?

Dennis
 
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Brian Train
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They included such rules as an option in Panzer Leader.
IIRC...
Large guns (I think anything over 75mm) had a field of fire of the "front" 3 hexes, and turreted AFVs had some functional advantage over fixed-gun vehicles like assault guns and self-propelled artillery.

Brian
 
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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

I was thinking of the 'rules' as they exist and the actual limits / abilities of certain weapons systems...

For example... the '88', the '25 pdr' the '2 pdr' late war designs where even the 'heaviest' of weapons where on a 'cruciform mount' allowing 360 degree rotation without having to 'breakdown' the gun to move it in another direction.

Also, I was thinking about the effects of the 'role' that some of the guns where being used in... 'indirect-fire' and such. Very often these guns where 'set-up' to cover certain targets and aligned to hit those targets.

There are alternatives and for the most part they could be accounted for without a lot of complications, maybe.

Thanks for listening, I look forward to your responses.

Dennis
 
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Steve
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You promised not to reply to me any more, but -- --

There is another thing that can limit fields of fire.

The shape of the ground maters. In order for an artillery piece to be able to fire at the foot of the hill it is on it must be located below at or the "military crest" of the hill. And it is lower than the normal crest of the hill, so the gun can't fire at the other side of the hill. AFV would be able to move around in a hex and so would be less constrained by this, but art. really should have a limited FoF due to this.

Or else, it might be given a 360 deg. FoF but then it can't fire at the slope around it or the ground level for some number of hexes [around 3 or 4 maybe]. OTOH, it must in some cases be able to fire at the slope of its own hill because [until enemy units can move into your hex] all enemy units that want to fight the art. must stop/be on those slope hexes. In this situation we are assuming the guns are on the very top of the hill, right at the 'peak'.

 
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Robert McConnell
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dgk196 wrote:
Hello...

I was thinking of the 'rules' as they exist and the actual limits / abilities of certain weapons systems...

For example... the '88', the '25 pdr' the '2 pdr' late war designs where even the 'heaviest' of weapons where on a 'cruciform mount' allowing 360 degree rotation without having to 'breakdown' the gun to move it in another direction.

Also, I was thinking about the effects of the 'role' that some of the guns where being used in... 'indirect-fire' and such. Very often these guns where 'set-up' to cover certain targets and aligned to hit those targets.

There are alternatives and for the most part they could be accounted for without a lot of complications, maybe.

Thanks for listening, I look forward to your responses.

Dennis


Dennis, would you need a chart detailing which guns have limited fields of fire or do "we" (theoretically us gamers) need to make new counters indicating with a special symbol- say a half-hexagon or hex spine symbol? New counters is not really negotiable for some of us, but a chart is just another finding aid in a long list of finding aids. But it does preserve your standard field gun counters. ;-)

Bob
 
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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

An interesting subject and one that could/might improve the game experience. My basic goal it to get the Germans to stop fighting themselves. By that I mean there is not enough detail which defines one force from the other when it comes to being able to perform various tasks. Such as indirect-fire... directed fire... direct fire... targeting abilities for any of these and so on. In short, expanding the parameters/features relevant to the specific units detailing them to a higher degree than that found in the original games.

So far, as I read it, we have identified...

1.) Unit specific parameters.

2.) Combat type specifics.

3.) Environmental/Situational Factors.

Anything more relevant factors/abilities/limitations?

I'd like to start working on integrating such things into the Unit Function Table and also develop one, similar to the PanzerLeader format, for the Russian forces.

Thanks for listening

Dennis
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Philip Hernandez
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This one doesn't need a lot of work. Guns up to a certain caliber (the cutoff is probably around 45 to 50 mm), all AA guns and all recoilless rifles have a 360-degree field of fire. Larger caliber pieces do not. Only a few exceptions need to be noted, like the 25-pounder and maybe the American 90 mm AT gun (which was essentially the AA gun in the anti-tank role). The PL rule can be adapted for turning guns. Certain guns, again a limited list, may not alter their field of fire at all once placed, notably the American 240 mm mortar; these generally do not appear on the map, however.

As to mortars, those up to 81-82 mm certainly have a 360-degree field of fire (excluding those mounted on vehicles, in most cases); concerning larger-caliber mortars, I have no data ready to hand. I also have no references for the various rocket launchers.

I don't know how easily the German 75 mm infantry gun could be turned or manhandled; it is a possible exception, along with the "French 75".

As for SPA, the larger guns (at least 149 mm and up) had spades which dug into the ground for stability, cancelling out the extra mobility, perhaps? I don't know about 105 mm SPA like the Wespe or M7 HMC. SPAA had a 360-degree field of fire. The Katyushas (M-13 in the supplement) basically fired once, then moved to a new location to reload and avoid counterbattery fire, so FOF would be irrelevant if historical doctrine is followed. The SdKfz 4/1 ("Maultier" -- the name properly applies not to this vehicle but to the half-tracked trucks on which it was based) could turn itself easily enough; it therefore would have a 360-degree FOF.

Counters (for instance from IMSTRAT) are needed to distinguish the German 88 mm AT guns from the AA guns serving in the AT role, as they were entirely different weapons. The former would not have a 360-degree field of fire. That PB did not do this is a result of the counter mix limits, and the fact that neither aircraft nor rules for them were included.

Phil
 
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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

I think that PanzerLeader has a chart in its rules book that has data regarding various attributes of the units found in the game. Well, if a category exists for a guns attributes regarding field of fire, then we can use that, or expand on it. By adding units to an updated chart which can have the 'new units' not found in the original game and maybe one for PanzerBlitz too, while we're at it.

Some 'size' of the guns, or other units, would put them in the full field of fire, that is a field of fire of 360 degrees around the unit. There you could note differences of vehicles, such as fully turreted or limited. Though having a gun on a self-propelled chassis kind of implies the ability to change postion. So should all mobile units have '360' no matter the configuration?

Others, say larger caliber guns might have a limited field of fire. This could be 180 degrees relative to a units position on the map. Or say a limit of two adjacect hex-sides, which would form a 'V' shaped field of fire, relative to the units position on the map. I think the data could also reflect if a unit can be reoriented to change its relative field of fire and if necessary, how long (game turns) it might take to do.

Thanks for listening, I look forward to your feedback and ideas.

Dennis
 
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Robert McConnell
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BroadwayPhil wrote:
The PL rule can be adapted for turning guns.
I don't know how easily the German 75 mm infantry gun could be turned or manhandled; it is a possible exception, along with the "French 75".

Phil


Phil, I chopped up your quote because I just want to address this part of it. I have not looked over the PL rule book (I have it), but I have seen pictures of the gun crews pushing them down the streets of towns(!), so they were quite maneuverable. Same with the French 75 (awesome gun). So I don't think FoF limitations should apply to these weapons as the crews could fairly quickly reposition these two weapons. But I will check! Good post.

Bob
 
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Frank Clarke
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voyager2lcats wrote:
I have seen pictures of the gun crews pushing them down the streets of towns(!)

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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

Interesting photo... and I believe there are many others of 'small' guns being manhandled by the crew into firing position. So, does this mean we have to change the 'assault' rules?

It would seem that there are different categories of 'manueverability', which would have an effect on 'field of fire'... It could be worked out, as mentioned in earlier replies.

Dennnis
 
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