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Subject: genius vs guerrilla wild card rss

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Rob Brown
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Hey,
After playing a hilatious cosmic encounter game, we need help with how to interpret what happens when the Genius is going up against the guerrilla wild card from the cosmic incursions expansion.

First, the Genius power
"As a main player or ally, whenever you gain a foreign colony as the result of winning an encounter, you may use this power to instead draw one card from the deck foe each ship you have in the encounter and then send your ships in the encounter back to your other colonies.

Now the guerrilla wild:
"after you lose an encounter as the defence, you may blow your own own planet up rather than allow it to be captured, the planet is removed from the game along with all of the attacking ships (your sides ships are sent to the warp as normal)"....the rest of the card is not important.

Both powers are resolved in the resolution phase


Assuming that the genius won the encounter-
On one hand, some of us argued that the Genius never gained a foreign colony, (what is in bold), as it was blown up, so he cannot use the rest of his power. Because the rest of his power is nullified, the genius does not send his ships back to his colonies and all his ships are removed from the game and the guerrilla's card takes affect.

However, the the rest of my board game group argued the word "instead" on the genius card. So although the colony was never gained by the genius, his powers are still available because he is choosing to invoke his power before the guerrilla's wild takes affect, thus avoiding losing all his ships, and still able to draw one card for every ship he sends back to his colonies.

What is the correct answer?

We really need help with this one. Any help would be appreciated.

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Trevor Taylor
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If both powers state they happen in the same phase, then I believe the active player (the attacker) chooses the order in which things go off. However, there's a certain level by which you need to honour the game. He needs to decide if he's invading, or drawing cards FIRST (and Guerrilla should wait for this decision), then the Guerrilla announcing what they want to do. Once Guerrilla has decided, I don't think it's in keeping with the game for the attacker to then decide to use their power.
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Just a Bill
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No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
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negatrev wrote:
the active player (the attacker) chooses the order in which things go off.

Not quite. The offense doesn't dictate the order of things, but he does go first when two things are trying to happen at the same time. (A subtle but sometimes important difference.)

Quote:
He needs to decide if he's invading, or drawing cards FIRST (and Guerrilla should wait for this decision), then the Guerrilla announcing what they want to do.

The defense is not required to wait for the offense's decision. If Genius doesn't declare his power right away, then Wild Guerrilla can do its thing. Both of these effects are playable when the offense has been determined to be the winner and the offensive ships are about to land on the planet. Whoever announces their action simply performs it.

Now, if they are announced at essentially the same time, or if the defense didn't give the offense a reasonable moment to announce his power, then the offense can invoke the Timing Conflicts rule to do his thing first. But the TC rule only breaks ties; it does not actually mandate that every decision has to happen in a particular order based on seating position.

And one other subtle distinction that doesn't matter in this case but could matter in others: If Wild Guerrilla does go first, technically it would still be the appropriate time frame for Genius to do his thing ... it's just that in this particular case he now can't, because it's no longer possible to draw cards instead of landing on the planet. (He's no longer able to land on the planet; he's no longer gaining a colony.) However, some other effect that jumped in front of Genius without sending his ships to the warp or otherwise making it impossible for him to land on the planet would not prevent Genius from still using his power.
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Rob Brown
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So what would you say is the correct answer if guerrilla showed his card first, and genius reacted to it?
 
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Trevor Taylor
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Bill Martinson wrote:
negatrev wrote:
the active player (the attacker) chooses the order in which things go off.

Not quite. The offense doesn't dictate the order of things, but he does go first when two things are trying to happen at the same time. (A subtle but sometimes important difference.)

Quote:
He needs to decide if he's invading, or drawing cards FIRST (and Guerrilla should wait for this decision), then the Guerrilla announcing what they want to do.

The defense is not required to wait for the offense's decision. If Genius doesn't declare his power right away, then Wild Guerrilla can do its thing. Both of these effects are playable when the offense has been determined to be the winner and the offensive ships are about to land on the planet. Whoever announces their action simply performs it.

Now, if they are announced at essentially the same time, or if the defense didn't give the offense a reasonable moment to announce his power, then the offense can invoke the Timing Conflicts rule to do his thing first. But the TC rule only breaks ties; it does not actually mandate that every decision has to happen in a particular order based on seating position.

And one other subtle distinction that doesn't matter in this case but could matter in others: If Wild Guerrilla does go first, technically it would still be the appropriate time frame for Genius to do his thing ... it's just that in this particular case he now can't, because it's no longer possible to draw cards instead of landing on the planet. (He's no longer able to land on the planet; he's no longer gaining a colony.) However, some other effect that jumped in front of Genius without sending his ships to the warp or otherwise making it impossible for him to land on the planet would not prevent Genius from still using his power.


By only quoting part of my statements you've managed to mangle what I said...

negatrev wrote:
However, there's a certain level by which you need to honour the game. He needs to decide if he's invading, or drawing cards FIRST (and Guerrilla should wait for this decision), then the Guerrilla announcing what they want to do. Once Guerrilla has decided, I don't think it's in keeping with the game for the attacker to then decide to use their power.


My point being it's thematically more entertaining to play it this way and certainly not in the rules.
 
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Just a Bill
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negatrev wrote:
By only quoting part of my statements you've managed to mangle what I said...
negatrev wrote:
However, there's a certain level by which you need to honour the game.

I certainly had no intention of "mangling" anything. The material you quoted in yellow seemed vague to me, and since I couldn't tell what you meant by it I left it out of the quotation so as not to imply that I was responding to it. Had I had the benefit of your later clarification ...

negatrev wrote:
My point being it's thematically more entertaining to play it this way and certainly not in the rules.

... then perhaps I might not have posted at all. But since you seemed to be giving a rules interpretation, and what you were saying did not agree with the Timing Conflicts rule, I posted a rebuttal. That's what I do with (apparent) misinformation. It would never have occurred to me that you intended "honor the game" to mean "I recommend this even though it's against the rules."

Roblems wrote:
So what would you say is the correct answer if guerrilla showed his card first, and genius reacted to it?

If Genius had a reasonable amount of time and did not invoke his power, then it's too late. He does not get to go "oh, now that I see the planet is about to go boom, I guess I want to use my power."

But if Wild Guerrilla was waiting on pins and needles to slam his card down the instant it looked like the outcome was settled, without Genius even getting a second to think about or announce his decision, then Genius gets to say "sorry pal, this ain't Slapjack." If Genius legitimately was already planning to use his power, or just needed a moment to take in the new game state at that instant, then the Timing Conflicts rule protects him.

But the best answer is probably that the person with the surprise effect should just use some common sense: If I were the player holding Wild Guerrilla, I would just nonchalantly ask, "So what're you doin' this time, Genius?" or "Usin' your power there, bud?" Then when he said "nah" or shook his head or even just shrugged his shoulders or remained silent, I would play my flare and Genius would have no right to sneak ahead of it, because he had an opportunity to announce his power but did not choose to do so.
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Rob Brown
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Thanks bill,

So you would say that the genius's power still can go into in affect even though it sais "whenever you gain a foreign planet"?

The planet is blown up, so despite the timing conflict, I would think the genius cannot use his power regardless of whether the guerrilla played his card before or after the genius announces his power use.

The genius never got gained a planet!!! So the rest of the card is ignored, no?
 
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Just a Bill
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Roblems wrote:
So you would say that the genius's power still can go into in affect even though it sais "whenever you gain a foreign planet"?

No, if you mean it can go into effect after the planet blows up, that is not what I wrote.

Roblems wrote:
despite the timing conflict, I would think the genius cannot use his power regardless of whether the guerrilla played his card before or after the genius announces his power use.

If Genius announces his power first, he does his thing successfully before the planet blows up. Then the other player can announce and play the wild flare.
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