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Mythic Battles: Pantheon» Forums » General

Subject: Apollo vs Artemis analysis rss

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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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I was going through the various stat cards and finally found Apollo’s, I missed it somewhere.
That made me re-think Artemis; as they are brother and sister they have some things in common: a ranged attack of 3 and below average defense and vitality. As such they would fulfill a similar role in your army.

ARTEMIS 6 8 3 2 8 (1/5)
MOBILITY – LEADER - CLIMB
Golden Bow (0): Artemis can make a ranged attack at +1 attack value. This attack may be made against any unit in range and ignores all obstacles.
Hounds: as long as the complete Hounds troop (2) are on the board, units in the same zone as Artemis get +1 move.
Hounds: 3 5 0 2 (guard on Artemis)

APOLLO 7 8 3 2 9 (1/4)
MONSTER SLAYER – INITIATIVE - BOLSTER
Golden Arrows (1): If he doesn’t move during this turn, Apollo can make two ranged attacks.
Lyre (1): Until the beginning of your next turn, no units can attack. Apollo can’t attack this turn.

Damage:
obviously, provided you have enough AoW cards, Apollo does a lot more damage than Artemis: 8 attacks vs 5 per deck cycle. The only situation where this wouldn’t happen is when all your opponents’ units are cowering behind rocks and in forests. If your opponent fields a lot of monsters, Apollo is even stronger with his Monster Slayer ability (re-roll up to 2 dice); Apollo’s potential rolling 14 dice and re-rolling 4 of them per activation would make every monster think twice before moving into Apollo’s range. While Artemis doesn’t really do more damage than an average 3 recruitment point unit – except that she does it from a wider range.

Survivability: It’s a close call here. Artemis can climb on rocks so if she does, she’s hard to attack with melee units on maps with obstacles. Apollo has 1 more vitality. Artemis has mobility so she can hit and run and she is the only God that stays mobile even when left with just 1 vitality. Apollo has his lyre so he can declare peace as long as he has activation/AoW cards (handy for transporting/absorbing Omphalos). Artemis’ dogs can let her run even further from harm, provided they’re in her area. Apollo’s initiative lets him retaliate with “first strike”. Artemis may have her dogs around to take a hit for her.

Boosts: they both get bonuses when playing with Troops. Artemis lets you search for an activation card (handy for her dogs) while Apollo gives +1 att/+1 def to troops units in the same area. So if you don’t play with troops those talents aren’t all that useful (although Artemis gets her dogs for free; on the other hand, I think Artemis’ dogs require way too much micromanagement to be of great use, especially with all her mobility options). Having said that, it could be interesting to field some troops with them, both defensive (Spartans, Myrmidons, Centaur) as offensive (like range 2 troops as Toxotai, Amazons or Argonauts).

Card Economy: Artemis comes with 9 cards (5 activation cards, 1 Aow and 3 Dog troop activation cards) while Apollo comes with 5 (4 + 1). Obviously, Artemis is far more card economic:
1. Apollo needs AoW cards to activate his double attack and Lyre while both Artemis’ skills are free;
2. with her leader talent, Artemis can also activate friendly troops without paying an AoW card.
3. the 3 activation cards for her dogs can be handy not to run out of cards before your opponent;
4. if you are facing Hecate, Persephone or Pandora and their discard talents the dog cards may come in handy;
For these reasons it is clear that Artemis gives you more freedom in picking other units as she isn’t nearly as dependent on their AoW cards as her brother - so she is also more versatile when composing her army. In an army containing Apollo one would expect more heroes, as he’s a lot more AoW card hungry than his sister.

Remarkable
: neither has the Archer talent.

Verdict: Apollo is a more powerful God than his sister - but it comes at the price of AoW cards. I consider Apollo the better choice of the two for an archer/ranged God. Although Artemis is slightly more mobile and gives you a lot more freedom and AoW card independency, Apollo’s much higher potential damage (almost double versus monsters) and Lyre skill gives him both the offensive and defensive edge over his sister.

What do you think?


Bolster - Friendly Troops in the same area as this unit gain +1 attack and +1 defense.
Climb - This unit may move onto areas of difficult terrain, such as impenetrable terrain and cliffs.
Initiative - This unit retaliates before its attacker’s attack. After retaliation, the attacker must still be within range to perform its attack. Other units with the Initiative Talent ignore this effect.
Leader - At the end of this unit’s activation, you may choose a friendly unit of Troops in its area. Its owner searches their deck for an activation card for that unit and adds it to their hand. The unit may be activated immediately without discarding an Art of War card.
Mobility - When activated, this unit can attack and then move.
Monster Slayer - This unit may re-roll up to 2 dice when it is attacking a Monster.
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Benoit VOGT
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Teowulff wrote:
I was going through the various stat cards and finally found Apollo’s, I missed it somewhere.
That made me re-think Artemis; as they are brother and sister they have some things in common: a ranged attack of 3 and below average defense and vitality. As such they would fulfill a similar role in your army.

ARTEMIS 6 8 3 2 8 (1/5)
MOBILITY – LEADER - CLIMB
Golden Bow (0): Artemis can make a ranged attack at +1 attack value. This attack may be made against any unit in range and ignores all obstacles.
Hounds: as long as the complete Hounds troop (2) are on the board, units in the same zone as Artemis get +1 move.
Hounds: 3 5 0 2 (guard on Artemis)

APOLLO 7 8 3 2 9 (1/4)
MONSTER SLAYER – INITIATIVE - BOLSTER
Golden Arrows (1): If he doesn’t move during this turn, Apollo can make two ranged attacks.
Lyre (1): Until the beginning of your next turn, no units can attack. Apollo can’t attack this turn.

Damage:
obviously, provided you have enough AoW cards, Apollo does a lot more damage than Artemis: 8 attacks vs 5 per deck cycle. The only situation where this wouldn’t happen is when all your opponents’ units are cowering behind rocks and in forests. If your opponent fields a lot of monsters, Apollo is even stronger with his Monster Slayer ability (re-roll up to 2 dice); Apollo’s potential rolling 14 dice and re-rolling 4 of them per activation would make every monster think twice before moving into Apollo’s range. While Artemis doesn’t really do more damage than an average 3 recruitment point unit – except that she does it from a wider range.

Survivability: It’s a close call here. Artemis can climb on rocks so if she does, she’s hard to attack with melee units on maps with obstacles. Apollo has 1 more vitality. Artemis has mobility so she can hit and run and she is the only God that stays mobile even when left with just 1 vitality. Apollo has his lyre so he can declare peace as long as he has activation/AoW cards (handy for transporting/absorbing Omphalos). Artemis’ dogs can let her run even further from harm, provided they’re in her area. Apollo’s initiative lets him retaliate with “first strike”. Artemis may have her dogs around to take a hit for her.

Boosts: they both get bonuses when playing with Troops. Artemis lets you search for an activation card (handy for her dogs) while Apollo gives +1 att/+1 def to troops units in the same area. So if you don’t play with troops those talents aren’t all that useful (although Artemis gets her dogs for free; on the other hand, I think Artemis’ dogs require way too much micromanagement to be of great use, especially with all her mobility options). Having said that, it could be interesting to field some troops with them, both defensive (Spartans, Myrmidons, Centaur) as offensive (like range 2 troops as Toxotai, Amazons or Argonauts).

Card Economy: Artemis comes with 9 cards (5 activation cards, 1 Aow and 3 Dog troop activation cards) while Apollo comes with 5 (4 + 1). Obviously, Artemis is far more card economic:
1. Apollo needs AoW cards to activate his double attack and Lyre while both Artemis’ skills are free;
2. with her leader talent, Artemis can also activate friendly troops without paying an AoW card.
3. the 3 activation cards for her dogs can be handy not to run out of cards before your opponent;
4. if you are facing Hecate, Persephone or Pandora and their discard talents the dog cards may come in handy;
For these reasons it is clear that Artemis gives you more freedom in picking other units as she isn’t nearly as dependent on their AoW cards as her brother - so she is also more versatile when composing her army. In an army containing Apollo one would expect more heroes, as he’s a lot more AoW card hungry than his sister.

Remarkable
: neither has the Archer talent.

Verdict: Apollo is a more powerful God than his sister - but it comes at the price of AoW cards. I consider Apollo the better choice of the two for an archer/ranged God. Although Artemis is slightly more mobile and gives you a lot more freedom and AoW card independency, Apollo’s much higher potential damage (almost double versus monsters) and Lyre skill gives him both the offensive and defensive edge over his sister.

What do you think?


Bolster - Friendly Troops in the same area as this unit gain +1 attack and +1 defense.
Climb - This unit may move onto areas of difficult terrain, such as impenetrable terrain and cliffs.
Initiative - This unit retaliates before its attacker’s attack. After retaliation, the attacker must still be within range to perform its attack. Other units with the Initiative Talent ignore this effect.
Leader - At the end of this unit’s activation, you may choose a friendly unit of Troops in its area. Its owner searches their deck for an activation card for that unit and adds it to their hand. The unit may be activated immediately without discarding an Art of War card.
Mobility - When activated, this unit can attack and then move.
Monster Slayer - This unit may re-roll up to 2 dice when it is attacking a Monster.



I think that Athemis ability to boost the movement of friendly units thanks to the dogs is a very important factor to take into consideration.
She is the only one who can do that. Clearly her brother is a better fighter. But in the end I think they are worth each other. Their gameplay is pretty different even if they are both archers.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Benoit0905 wrote:
I think that Athemis ability to boost the movement of friendly units thanks to the dogs is a very important factor to take into consideration.
She is the only one who can do that. Clearly her brother is a better fighter. But in the end I think they are worth each other. Their gameplay is pretty different even if they are both archers.

Well obviously you are far more experienced in playing the game ... it is hard to assess how important 1 extra movement point is in the game, if you see what you sacrifice for it. Especially as the hounds must be both complete and in the same area to give the bonus.
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Aditya C
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Worth noting that Apollo's double attack is with one less die.

Artemis doesn't have archer because she has a better version as her first special power. Being able to ignore all obstacles is pretty crazy and limits your opponents' defensive options.
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Daniel Guinoza
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Some points missing:

Artemis: The free hounds are +1 free RP. Climb can make her shoot at +1 atk and +1 range. Artemis atop a mountain is a high range tower.

Apollo: Even though double attack is good, lyre is the real star. I think lyre would allow a sick omphalos collecting strategy vs any battle-focused god. The lyre makes Apollo 3rd in my to-ban list (Athena and Hecate being better, Persephone very close, too. I can't say too much about Typhon with the hefty -4RP and 3 AoW cost).

So, in your comparison (more combat oriented, or at least not omphalos/control oriented) you underestimated climb on a range 3 unit. I think Artemis is better (in combat). You just need good high ground positioning and that will give you a big chunk of the map as a safe area with strong cover fire: 4 range and no safe spot to hide is really strong. Factor in the move, and Artemis can shoot something that starts at range 6. Being in higher ground means safety from units with range 0 and no climb, which is a lot of units. Add the hounds (guard, climb), that make any non-AoE attack (that must be ranged) irrelevant...

Apollo not moving before shooting twice is a big cost, since he will need to be in a vulnerable spot to most melee/range 1 units like Ares and Hydra in the first place.

Some keywords that go with them: Artemis is a sniper in a defensive position, that only cares about ranged AoE return fire. Apollo is a reckless machinegun that can raise the white flag while he collects omphalos.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Caibre wrote:
Worth noting that Apollo's double attack is with one less die.

It is? Where is that mentioned? blush



Artemis has a base attack of 6 (+1 for her skill), Apollo of 7.

Quote:
Artemis doesn't have archer because she has a better version as her first special power. Being able to ignore all obstacles is pretty crazy and limits your opponents' defensive options.

It will depend on the map you play on but yes, I can imagine it offering some good advantages if the map has lots of obstacles.
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Daniel Guinoza
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Teowulff wrote:
Artemis has a base attack of 6 (+1 for her skill), Apollo of 7.


The ability has a sword X: That means the attack uses the printed number on the stat matrix, and that number shows 6-5.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Arah wrote:
Some points missing:

Artemis: The free hounds are +1 free RP. Climb can make her shoot at +1 atk and +1 range. Artemis atop a mountain is a high range tower.

Apollo: Even though double attack is good, lyre is the real star. I think lyre would allow a sick omphalos collecting strategy vs any battle-focused god. The lyre makes Apollo 3rd in my to-ban list (Athena and Hecate being better, Persephone very close, too. I can't say too much about Typhon with the hefty -4RP and 3 AoW cost).

So, in your comparison (more combat oriented, or at least not omphalos/control oriented) you underestimated climb on a range 3 unit. I think Artemis is better (in combat). You just need good high ground positioning and that will give you a big chunk of the map as a safe area with strong cover fire: 4 range and no safe spot to hide is really strong. Factor in the move, and Artemis can shoot something that starts at range 6. Being in higher ground means safety from units with range 0 and no climb, which is a lot of units. Add the hounds (guard, climb), that make any non-AoE attack (that must be ranged) irrelevant...

Apollo not moving before shooting twice is a big cost, since he will need to be in a vulnerable spot to most melee/range 1 units like Ares and Hydra in the first place.

Some keywords that go with them: Artemis is a sniper in a defensive position, that only cares about ranged AoE return fire. Apollo is a reckless machinegun that can raise the white flag while he collects omphalos.

Very good points!

Yes I forgot the height bonus climbing up a hill gives, it's very good indeed. I haven't checked all the maps yet, though. Not sure if they all have elevations (except the sea map)?
On the other hand, a 8 dice 4 range attack still doesn't necessarily outscore 2 6 dice range 3 attacks, even if the enemy is partially covered by trees. Especially not if it is a monster.
And yes, I believe it is very terrain dependent how much they will differ. If there's a woodland map with hills, Artemis may have the upper hand. If not, I think Apollo is stronger.

Without moving Apollo still has the same free attack as Artemis though (sans ignoring terrain). It's not as if his normal attack is that weak.
And vulnerable .. the boards aren't that big that you can run away endlessly. Gods should be able to take a few hits and of course they often have protective units around them; Apollo even gives his troops extra bonuses. As long as there's units between him and some strong melee enemy he should be good.

Anyway, it's all theorycrafting, of course. Can't wait to try it out!

Arah wrote:
Teowulff wrote:
Artemis has a base attack of 6 (+1 for her skill), Apollo of 7.


The ability has a sword X: That means the attack uses the printed number on the stat matrix, and that number shows 6-5.

Thanks! I still have a lot to learn , apparently!! blush
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Aditya C
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Artmemis' mobility is very cool as a leadership movement. She can attack and then move to a troop and get its card from the deck and move it with +1 move. This can make for some interesting turns where she can destroy threats and send her minions to gather the Omphalos.
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Itai Rosenbaum
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Teowulff wrote:
Especially as the hounds must be both complete and in the same area to give the bonus.


The hounds don't need to be in the same area. They need to be complete and somewhere on the board, and if they are - then any unit in Artemis' zone gets +1 move. You could stash the hounds in some corner somewhere, protected by a "babysitter" and just dominate the board.

I can totally see Artemis running a "smash and grab" game, running folks like Icarus, Arachne and Autolocus, getting all the Omphaloses (omphali? Omphalosis?) before the other player has any idea what's going on. Throw Ladon on there to protect Artemis from nasties, and you've still got 2 RP left for troops to use as fodder.
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