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Falling Sky: The Gallic Revolt Against Caesar» Forums » Rules

Subject: Sequence of Events rss

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Dirk Dahmann
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Recently we came up with a question of exactly when happens what if a Command plus SA is selected. Do I have to pre-select the SA PLUS the Command (Why? There may be two or more possible/useful SAs after say Harassment has taken place. So, do I have to pre-select the SA before executing the March?) Definitely, I have to pre-select the SA if it is the first thing I do and the Command comes second. But, could I select from different Commands after executing the SA? (Strange question, but you never know...) Also, I MUST pre-plot all originating areas of a march before I actually move the guys, right? But do I, say as the Arverni, have to pre-plot the areas of the SA Entreat TOGETHER with all areas of March? If yes, a movement of Vercingetorix could make more entreatable areas eligible and vice versa.
Strangely enough, these questions never came up in one of the former COINs...
 
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Niko
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Tubilderborst wrote:



Recently we came up with a question of exactly when happens what if a Command plus SA is selected. Do I have to pre-select the SA PLUS the Command (Why? There may be two or more possible/useful SAs after say Harassment has taken place. So, do I have to pre-select the SA before executing the March?) Definitely, I have to pre-select the SA if it is the first thing I do and the Command comes second. But, could I select from different Commands after executing the SA? (Strange question, but you never know...) Also, I MUST pre-plot all originating areas of a march before I actually move the guys, right? But do I, say as the Arverni, have to pre-plot the areas of the SA Entreat TOGETHER with all areas of March? If yes, a movement of Vercingetorix could make more entreatable areas eligible and vice versa.
Strangely enough, these questions never came up in one of the former COINs...
So far no COIN game requires that you lock in decisions in advance. You can select one origin for a march, move a group one area, negotiate about harassment, then move them a second area (and with Cesar repeat that one more time if you want)
Depending on how that march went you can then select if you want to perform more marches (same or different origins), or if you want to do an SA (you don't need to declare which one you pick in advance, nor when you are doing it, nor where, not even that you are doing one at all!)
Of course you have to pick a command/SA combo that is legal (e.g. no ambushing if you don't pick battle)

This was at one point clarified since this will change with Pendragon (i.e. in Pendragon you say "in this turn I will do this command in X regions, and this SA in Y regions" before starting to execute any of them) and Volko said that it is the first COIN game to require it.
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Dirk Dahmann
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Well, this is the liberal interpretation. And thanks for it!

Fact is, that especially FS could profit from an explicit rules clarification, since the individual games get more and more "complex". All the COIN rules say, that you "select" areas where things are going to happen, none of them clarifies, how you do this. (Agreed, one could assume that as long as there is no explicit limitation, anything goes.)

Here is a suggestion to all those developers out there: Just give an example in the various playbooks, how exactly this can be done.

 
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Oerjan Ariander
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You mean like they did in the Falling Sky playbook?

If you look at card 3 in the multiplayer example of play on p.8, you will find that the Arverni interrupt their March Command with a previously unannounced Devastate Special Activity.

Regards,
Oerjan
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Dirk Dahmann
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Yep, that definitely is a step into the right direction.
As you can see from my ignorance it was "not prominent enough".

For my feeling I'd rather have it not buried in a lengthy playexample but directly connected to the rule itself (yes, maybe in the playbook). These are CORE mechanisms, which have been probably less important say in Cuba Libre.

But it clearly clarifies the situation.

Thanks all.
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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Pre-selecting an SA or specific Command/Op spaces is neither more nor less important in Cuba Libre than it is in Falling Sky... since neither of the two games require any such pre-selection at all. And since no such pre-selection is required, the rules don't mention it.

Let's start in the other end instead:

What part or parts of the Falling Sky rules gave you the (incorrect) impression that you would have to pre-select the Special Ability or pre-plot Command spaces?

Regards,
Oerjan
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Dirk Dahmann
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"What part or parts of the Falling Sky rules gave you the (incorrect) impression that you would have to pre-select the Special Ability or pre-plot Command spaces?"

Simply the fact, that some player demanded exactly that in our game. Situation: A Roman player wanted that an Arverni player pre-plotted the Entreat areas together with "all" the areas of his March Command. The Arverni player had entreated an area he was not adjacent to with Vercingetorix BEFORE the March, but after it, he was. Now this is clearly possible after reading the example.

Note, that you do not have to convince me. I just tried to find a rules section where it was clarified sufficiently WHEN this all takes place. And simply there are none.
As I said, in these cases I'd assume that everything that is not forbidden in the rules is allowed. But,...

And I clearly disagree with your statement, that this question was equally important in CL compared to FS.
FS has MUCH more "structured" Command/special ability sequences...
COIN has moved a long way since AA ...


 
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Oerjan Ariander
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There is a rule about when you have to select Command spaces. You will find it in section 3.1, and it states:
Quote:
The executing Faction chooses the order in which the Command’s Regions are selected, resolved, and paid for,
(emphasis added)

Likewise 4.1 has this to say about SAs:
Quote:
As with Commands, the executing Faction selects Regions, Tribes, Factions, or pieces affected and in what order.
(emphasis added)

Neither rule says anything about having to making all choices and selections up front. Instead both of them say that the executing Faction chooses the order.

Regarding Cuba Libre, its Reprisal, Subvert and Infiltrate SAs are just as "structured" as FS's Entreat, Devastate, Suborn or Build ones...

Regards,
Oerjan
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Niko
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Tubilderborst wrote:
The Arverni player had entreated an area he was not adjacent to with Vercingetorix BEFORE the March, but after it, he was. Now this is clearly possible after reading the example.
I might be misunderstanding this, but just to be clear: Vercingetorix needs to be within one area when the SA is executed, not at the end of the turn.

This can be very important since you can interrupt a command (even in the middle of movement) to perform an SA, but you can never split up your SA.
I.e. no "I entreat this area before I move, move one area, entreat these two areas, and then finish my movement before entreating another area"
This is stated in the first bulled of 4.1, top right of page 11.

This means that a turn really isn't confusing even if a player marks/pays as they go: The command is executed region by region, and at one point it may be interrupted for an SA using the current board state. There really isn't much to remember that can't be seen by looking at the board at any given moment.
The only thing I can think of right now that will have to be remembered is which groups have already moved.

EDIT:
Tubilderborst wrote:
And I clearly disagree with your statement, that this question was equally important in CL compared to FS.
FS has MUCH more "structured" Command/special ability sequences...
COIN has moved a long way since AA ...
As for the difference in command/SA structure, I thought the only difference was that FS required leaders. Every other COIN game had the same "pick any one time at which you interrupt your command to execute SA" rule AFAIK.
 
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Alex P
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Another difference is that the cost for moving is by origin region instead of by destination.
 
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Niko
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Jesse Custer wrote:
Another difference is that the cost for moving is by origin region instead of by destination.
Sure, there's quite a few differences overall. I should have specified that I was responding to Tubilderborst's statement that the command/SA sequence is more structured.

EDIT: Edited post above to make that more clear.
 
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Dirk Dahmann
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Thanks everybody for the remarks once again.

I am in no way surprised by anything that was said here. Yes, I see the sequence of events exactly the same way es everybody else. We have all played a lot of COINS. I for once played them all and several times (in varying numbers, however, as I do like some of them more than others). So, please note, that we might have taken some inherent rules "interpretations" as "evident" and if a new player comes into the game who is not so familiar with these rules BUT is very good in READING any rules, there might be some "weaknesses" revealed.

Nothing that was quoted from the rules exactly says WHEN you select details. This could be easily corrected and will be, as somebody said before, when in future COINS the sequence MIGHT be different.

Complexity? No, I do disagree. Andean Abyss and Cuba Libre are a different piece of cake in this respect compared to the later games. I called it "structured" in a former mail but it boils down to complexity. But that is a completely different question. Have nice weeks everybody.

 
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Oerjan Ariander
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Tubilderborst wrote:
Nothing that was quoted from the rules exactly says WHEN you select details.

The phrase "The executing Faction chooses the order in which the Command’s Regions are selected, resolved, and paid for" explicitly says that as long as a Faction is executing a Command, it chooses the exact "WHEN". If the executing Faction chooses to resolve some spaces before selecting others, it is free to do so.

OK, the Procedures for the individual Commands or Operations may pose their own restrictions that need to be obeyed; for example most of them only allow you to do things in selected spaces, which means that you need to select a space before you can resolve it; and the Sweep Op in the modern-era COIN games require that all Sweep movement everywhere on the map must be finished before any Guerrillas are Activated anywhere (much like FS's Scout SA). Those restrictions are part of the individual Command/Op/SA though, not something that is inherent in the turn sequence.

Regards,
Oerjan
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Dirk Dahmann
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"The phrase "The executing Faction chooses the order in which the Command’s Regions are selected, resolved, and paid for" explicitly says that as long as a Faction is executing a Command, it chooses the exact "WHEN". If the executing Faction chooses to resolve some spaces before selecting others, it is free to do so."

No, it does NOT!
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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Since you disagree that the phrase "The executing Faction chooses the order in which the Command’s Regions are selected, resolved, and paid for" means that the executing Faction is given the authority to select the order of space selection, resolution and payment, could you please explain what you think it does mean?

Regards,
Oerjan
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