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Eldritch Horror» Forums » Rules

Subject: Epic vs normal monster combat rss

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Tim Edwards
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Further to my previous monster combat question, here's another one for you ;-)

Can someone clarify the difference between a normal monster and an epic monster in terms of combat/injury/death.

The rule book is not helpful in this. Concerning normal monsters it states:

"When a Monster has lost Health equal to or greater than its toughness, the Monster is defeated and returned to the Monster cup."

OK, no problem, got that.

But concerning Epic monsters it then says:

"An Epic Monster cannot be defeated unless it has lost Health equal to its toughness, at which point it is returned to the game box."

Surely this is the same statement?


Looking through the FAQ I see this ...

QQ. If a Monster’s or Epic Monster’s toughness is reduced to zero, is that Monster defeated?

AA. Yes. A Monster or Epic Monster is defeated if it has lost Health equal to or greater than its toughness. If a Monster’s toughness is reduced to zero, it is defeated. Even if it has not lost any Health, zero lost Health is equal to zero toughness.

Which to me is simply confusing.

How is combat vs an Epic monster different vs a normal?

Thanks.

Tim
 
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Jack
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The main difference is that epic monsters have to have their health drained, so cards like "discard 1 monster..." do not affect them.
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Philippe Des Roches
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Lorraine
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It's not. The difference between the statements and the rules is that an epic monster cannot be defeated by other means than damage, but a normal monster can.

For example, if an encounter tells you to defeat a monster with toughness 4 or less, it has to be a normal monster.
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Rudolf Hagedorn
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I think that the main difference is the result of their death. Monsters are returned to the monster cup, while Epic Monsters are returned to the game box.
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Cameron McKenzie
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All monsters (normal and epic) can be defeated by dealing damage equal to their toughness.

Normal monsters can also be defeated or discarded directly by effects found in other game components. Epic monsters CANNOT be defeated by such effects.

Just to clarify, epic monsters can be dealt damage by components, even if the damage is lethal. The point is that you can't defeat them without doing damage. Any source of damage is fine though.
 
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Tim Edwards
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OK, so for example the various Tokyo encounters which result in dealing damage to any monster in any space could be used to injure and even kill Epic monsters?
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Jack
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They sure can.
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Xelto G
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NadirVonRommel wrote:
OK, so for example the various Tokyo encounters which result in dealing damage to any monster in any space could be used to injure and even kill Epic monsters?

Yes. However, Tokyo encounters telling you to discard monsters of X toughness or less do not work on Epic Monsters. Likewise, cards telling you to move Monsters as part of the card effect cannot be used on Epic Monsters.
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Le Roux Van Der Vyver
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And you return the Epic monster to the game box, cause otherwise you could draw it out of the Monster cup for a really bad time.
 
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aurelian
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In terms of actual combat, there's no real difference between combat vs Epic or normal monsters. The key thing is to realise that "defeat" is a particular effect: any monster is defeated by losing health equal to its toughness, but that is the only way an Epic monster can be defeated. Whereas a normal monster can be defeated other ways (eg. directly by a Tokyo card that says "defeat a monster").
 
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Tim Edwards
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Personally I think the Tokyo remote damage encounters are OP if they're able to dispatch an epic monster without even going near it. I think I may impose a house rule that exclude Epics from being affected by those particular effects,

Anyway I appreciate all the replies.

Thanks guys :-)
 
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Rob Hart
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Tokyo's helpful, though not completely dependable, when you don't have a bad-ass monster killer on your team and you're up against a mystery or rumor that requires you to kill something big. The old "Park Charlie on Tokyo" strategy is significantly less effective after adding in Forsaken Lore, though.
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Jacob Black
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Epic monsters are a little funny. The terminology is sometimes a little weird.

They can be targeted by any effect that says (Monster but not Non-Epic Monster) however they cannot be moved or discarded.

They can take damage normally from services or encounters like Tokyo where a monster takes damage. (note again: make sure it says takes damage not that they can be discarded)

Sometimes you'll get a mystery where an Epic Monster cannot take damage except under a specific condition. The active investigator must possess a specific artifact. In this case if Charlie is in Tokyo and doesn't have the artifact the damage from Tokyo encounters couldn't hurt the Epic Monster.

There is one more strange case on top of all of this. Encounters that let investigators "Advance the Active Mystery by 1". This specifies if the mystery is one where an Epic Monster must be defeated to place 2 health tokens on the mystery card and the Epic Monster has it's toughness reduced by 1 for each health token. This isn't damage so it let's you get around the Epic Monster cannot be damaged unless the active investigator has X artifact condition and it explains the weirdness in the FAQ question: "Is an Epic Monster defeated if it's toughness is reduced to 0?".
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Xelto G
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NadirVonRommel wrote:

Personally I think the Tokyo remote damage encounters are OP if they're able to dispatch an epic monster without even going near it.

If you have Forsaken Lore (or to a lesser extent, any of the other expansions), then Tokyo isn't the quick-kill approach it seems to be at first glance. We've tried, trust me. But a number of the cards don't do damage to monsters, just move or discard them. Also, you have to actually succeed at the encounter (and they get more non-influence tests in the expansions, so it becomes less predictable about which abilities you will need there). And finally, even if you draw a card that lets you do damage, you're usually limited to 2 points of damage per card. Compared with the typical 6-8 toughness for an Epic Monster, that means a lot of attempts to take down the monster before you succeed.

It doesn't mean that Tokyo isn't a bad approach to take. It's just not as guaranteed as it seems at first glance, it ties anyone attempting it to a single location, and frequently just going in with a heavy hitter with a good weapon is a better approach.

I still have fond memories of Wilson one-shot killing the Dunwich Horror on round 1 in a 4-player game. It's a shame he went insane during Mythos of round 1. But it was a good game.
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