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Subject: Is Dark Souls combat more dynamic than KDM combat? rss

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Viper .
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I know Dark Souls combat is raved about for being so innovative and dynamic because it uses a "dynamic positioning system" rather than a grid. Personally, I'm big into combat in my board games and dynamic combat sounds amazing! I already have KDM but I don't know if I should get more KDM or just go all-in with Dark Souls instead. I don't expect Dark Souls to have the flavor text that KDM has though, so that's one downside to Dark Souls I guess.

Opinions?
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Joshua Nash
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I'd love to know as well. I tried to watch their live play through of Dark Souls, but it wasn't working by the time I showed up.
 
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Thomas Patrick
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Viper5121 wrote:
I know Dark Souls combat is raved about for being so innovative and dynamic because it uses a "dynamic positioning system" rather than a grid. Personally, I'm big into combat in my board games and dynamic combat sounds amazing! I already have KDM but I don't know if I should get more KDM or just go all-in with Dark Souls instead. I don't expect Dark Souls to have the flavor text that a KDM has though, so that's one downside to Dark Souls I guess.

Opinions?


The dynamic positioning system looks exactly like a grid but instead of using grid lines it puts a symbol in each spot.



Tilt your head slightly to the left to counter the picture rotation and it's a perfect grid. The AI deck doesn't look as intricate as it is in KDM, either.

Please don't take this as a bash on the Dark Souls boardgame, though. I backed it for everything, so I'm pretty excited about it. I don't think combat-wise you're getting more in the boss fights than you do in KDM, though. I don't mind that, though. I have KDM for that. I don't want hour long boss fights in Dark Souls. Dark Souls also has everything else before the boss fights which is completely different from KDM and I'm looking forward to that, too.
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Kaiwen Zhang
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well dark souls doesn't have the hit deck, so you don't get flavorful criticals.

what is different though is that the "blind spot" always changes based on the last card played. AFAIK, the blind spot is always the same in KDM (e.g. the two rear spots on the white lion).

so you do have to move around the boss in order to get to that spot.
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Maxim Steshenko
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Viper5121 wrote:
being so innovative and dynamic because it uses a "dynamic positioning system" rather than a grid.

I'm not sure where is exactly the innovation, since the game uses intersections of a tilted square grid and denotes them alone, like some wargames do. There can be up to four miniatures per an intersection and the diagonal movement is allowed, which simple twists spatial geometry of a tile. I don't know what you mean by "more dynamic" but both games use a lot of dice rolling in base-to-base contact.
 
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Thomas Patrick
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johncraven wrote:
well dark souls doesn't have the hit deck, so you don't get flavorful criticals.

what is different though is that the "blind spot" always changes based on the last card played. AFAIK, the blind spot is always the same in KDM (e.g. the two rear spots on the white lion).

so you do have to move around the boss in order to get to that spot.


I had forgotten about the blind spot part. I really do like that.
 
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Viper .
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I decided to go with more Kingdom Death Monster stuff. I realized that KDM is better than Dark Souls in every way possible.
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Viper5121 wrote:
I decided to go with more Kingdom Death Monster stuff. I realized that KDM is better than Dark Souls in every way possible.


I do think that also... but since I love Dark Souls a bit too much I needed to have DS also if nothing else then just to look pretty in my boardgaming shelf
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Luka Kovač Plavi
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I am leaning more and more towards skipping both and going for Mythic battles with my funds.

Its a different beast, being a skirmish game and all, but the amount of minis is just awesome. The theme also looks great.

KD:M is just too big for me to chew money-wise and I know I wouldn't be able to make myself glue all the minis with so many parts.

Dark Souls I am waiting to see the gameplay video first, but somehow what I saw so far has left me wanting for more.

I do have S&S, Conan and Massive Darkness on the way. Also Myth, Dungeon Saga, Claustrophobia, Omega Protocol on the shelves. I guess im pretty well covered as far as Dungeon Crawlers go.
 
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Viper5121 wrote:
I realized that KDM is better than Dark Souls in every way possible.


How could you possibly know that when you have no idea how Dark Souls will play, what the miniatures will be like, etc, since it isn't even produced?
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Quote:
I don't expect Dark Souls to have the flavor text that KDM has though, so that's one downside to Dark Souls I guess.


Dark Souls is revered for it's deep lore, perhaps do some basic research before you jump to conclusions.
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Rob
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I think what we have going here is several KD:M lovers who just want to bash on Dark Souls even though they have nothing but conjecture to base it on. Furthermore, I think it's funny how I am hearing people talk like Dark Souls is a weak KD:M wannabe. Hardy har har! While not in board game form, I'm pretty sure Dark Souls was around long before KD:M and I would venture to guess that KD:M is the one who has copied the Dark Souls concept starting with its world theme and going on to about every aspect from there except Poots through in some not so cool freaky sex stuff with KD:M so I guess that's different.
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Thomas Patrick
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robininni wrote:
I think what we have going here is several KD:M lovers who just want to bash on Dark Souls even though they have nothing but conjecture to base it on. Furthermore, I think it's funny how I am hearing people talk like Dark Souls is a weak KD:M wannabe. Hardy har har! While not in board game form, I'm pretty sure Dark Souls was around long before KD:M and I would venture to guess that KD:M is the one who has copied the Dark Souls concept starting with its world theme and going on to about every aspect from there except Poots through in some not so cool freaky sex stuff with KD:M so I guess that's different.


I own KDM 1.3 (original version) and all expansions and absolutely love the game both with a group and solo. I also backed the current Kickstarter so I can have 1.5 and all the new expansions. I also backed the DS board game Kickstarter for everything they offered. The Soulsborne series is one of my favorite video game series of all time. I just wanted to start with that so you know where I'm coming from.

There have been many updates and videos from the DS:TBG team about how it plays, so claiming the opinions stated above are based on nothing but conjecture is nothing but conjecture on your part. You could be right, but the information is out there so assuming they are posting purely as KDM fanboys is flawed at best. If you have a point to make about the thread's original question, please state it.

As for which came first? Demon's Souls was released in North America in October of 2009 (February in Japan). Adam Poots (creator of KDM) had his first Kickstarter for a Kingdom Death figure in November 2009. So your claim of it coming along long before Kingdom Death is incorrect. I also disagree that KDM's concept, world theme and about every other aspect is very similar to Dark Souls. They're both dark fantasy, but when you delve into the details they're very different.

I really want the DS board game to be good, but from what I've seen and read, which is all the updates they've released about the Kickstarter, I'm not getting a good feeling. I think the boss fights will be fun, but everything outside of that doesn't really grab me. If you're going to accuse me of being a fanboy, it's me being a fanboy for DS that kept me as a backer. KDM has earned my feelings for it. The DS video games have earned my feelings for them. The DS board game is riding the fanboy wave. I'm still excited for it, though, and I hope in the end it lands up there with KDM and the DS video game series for me.
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Maxim Steshenko
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robininni wrote:
I'm pretty sure Dark Souls was around long before KD:M

You naive confusion is understandable, so let me remind you that manga Berserk has been with us since 1988.

robininni wrote:
they have nothing but conjecture to base it on

Maybe you've missed last Steamforged stream, but I witnessed a very mediocre dungeon crawler there. And since devs gave a vow to deliver the game by April, I guess the prototype is representative of the final product.

Well, both games have their own problems and flaws. But while Kingdom Death: Monster tries to deliver intended experience, Dark Souls: The Board Game tries to appeal to the largest audience possible.
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silencewalker wrote:
robininni wrote:
I'm pretty sure Dark Souls was around long before KD:M

You naive confusion is understandable, so let me remind you that manga Berserk has been with us since 1988.


So you heard about the influences berserk had on the souls series then?
 
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According to Wiki, Demon Souls was released in Japan in February 2009 and North America in October of that year. It was in development 2 years prior to release in Japan.

According to Wiki, the Kingdom Death: Monster was conceived in 2008 by Adam and Kickstarted in 2012 and then delivered to backers sometime later (2014? not sure).

I'd say Demon Souls was established well before KD:M and it's very possible it was an 'inspiration' to Poots during his development phase.
 
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Let's quibble over who's cuter, dogs or cats.

I say dogs. But I could be wrong. Didn't the Egyptians domesticate cats before dogs were domesticated? So they came first, right?

I dunno. I'm sticking with dogs. Final answer.
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Thomas Patrick
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robininni wrote:
According to Wiki, Demon Souls was released in Japan in February 2009 and North America in October of that year. It was in development 2 years prior to release in Japan.

According to Wiki, the Kingdom Death: Monster was conceived in 2008 by Adam and Kickstarted in 2012 and then delivered to backers sometime later (2014? not sure).

I'd say Demon Souls was established well before KD:M and it's very possible it was an 'inspiration' to Poots during his development phase.

Do you have anything to contribute towards the actual thread topic? I'd like to hear more input regarding DS combat.

I've seen several things about combat against the bosses with the AI deck, but haven't seen nearly as much about combat against the standard enemies during the tile encounters. Can anybody point me towards that info? The VOD for the playthrough a few days ago still isn't available as of the last time I checked (about an hour ago).

EDIT: Definitely dogs.
 
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Maxim Steshenko
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vincentdante wrote:
So you heard about the influences berserk had on the souls series then?

You mean on dark fantasy in general? Sure. Or I need to bring up pictures of the berserk armour set, Bazuso, the landscape with stone faces and images of perverted demons? I thought it was obvious.

JPN38 wrote:
Let's quibble over who's cuter, dogs or cats.

Cats! Unless it's a korgi.


DyingTickles wrote:
I'd like to hear more input regarding DS combat. I've seen several things about combat against the bosses with the AI deck, but haven't seen nearly as much about combat against the standard enemies during the tile encounters.

It was painful to watch. Players are trapped in a small arena with only one Estus per character. Each node can contain up to two (not sure about this number) figures. Grunts can't be backstabbed and persistently overwhelms same character with few primitive actions. Aside from attacking a character, they can push a character out of a node or attack every character on a node. Range attacks have infinite reach and, again, punish same character, who bears Aggro token. And when one player character dies, everybody die.

While player can't do much about it, because there is only one attack per arm (i.e. if a character wields sword and shield, she can afford only one attack per turn and may choose from several options for different amount of actions points). For defence there were a coin toss for dodge, which in such confined space leads to a move into another enemy, and save throw for a block.

But since a player rolls direct amount of damage without any opposite rolls, one or two players may clean up everything before others will have a chance to even take a turn. And after each "room" health and stamina are restored automatically.
 
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silencewalker wrote:
vincentdante wrote:
So you heard about the influences berserk had on the souls series then?

You mean on dark fantasy in general? Sure. Or I need to bring up pictures of the berserk armour set, Bazuso, the landscape with stone faces and images of perverted demons? I thought it was obvious.

JPN38 wrote:
Let's quibble over who's cuter, dogs or cats.

Cats! Unless it's a korgi.


DyingTickles wrote:
I'd like to hear more input regarding DS combat. I've seen several things about combat against the bosses with the AI deck, but haven't seen nearly as much about combat against the standard enemies during the tile encounters.

It was painful to watch. Players are trapped in a small arena with only one Estus per character. Each node can contain up to two (not sure about this number) figures. Grunts can't be backstabbed and persistently overwhelms same character with few primitive actions. Aside from attacking a character, they can push a character out of a node or attack every character on a node. Range attacks have infinite reach and, again, punish same character, who bears Aggro token. And when one player character dies, everybody die.

While player can't do much about it, because there is only one attack per arm (i.e. if a character wields sword and shield, she can afford only one attack per turn and may choose from several options for different amount of actions points). For defence there were a coin toss for dodge, which in such confined space leads to a move into another enemy, and save throw for a block.

But since a player rolls direct amount of damage without any opposite rolls, one or two players may clean up everything before others will have a chance to even take a turn. And after each "room" health and stamina are restored automatically.


The focusing on one character seems problematic. Has the aggro token changed any or does that still go to whichever player moved last? I think that's how it worked the last time I saw a combat example.
 
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DyingTickles wrote:
The focusing on one character seems problematic. Has the aggro token changed any or does that still go to whichever player moved last?

Can't recall precisely, but apparently Aggro token denotes active player now. Don't quote me on this tho. There were other target selectors like nearest or highest Taunt value, but Aggro was a priority. To me this is weaker than in Galaxy Defenders.

I guess the idea was to put a pressure on one player at a time to emphasise On Dies Everyone Die rule, because with one Esuts and dice-based defence measures there is no real way to sustain long-term engagement.
 
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silencewalker wrote:
vincentdante wrote:
So you heard about the influences berserk had on the souls series then?

You mean on dark fantasy in general? Sure. Or I need to bring up pictures of the berserk armour set, Bazuso, the landscape with stone faces and images of perverted demons? I thought it was obvious.


I've never played KDM or seen berserk so no it wasn't obvious surprisingly, so I have no idea if that's an actual thing in either. All I know is that it inspired DS which why I asked.
 
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Viper .
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Well, I have reconsidered Dark Souls. It does look really good!! Both Dark Souls and KDM both look awesome!!

I have decided to get both!!

Thanks for the responses everyone.
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No. What makes KDM combat is both the cool way their deck is their health and the neat damaging of body parts system. Dark Souls might have something ok with the blind spot attack thing, but you're basically looking at a slow dredge of "deal damage, save enough energy to dodge". Which is better I can't say yet, but it dynamic is not what I would describe Dark Souls as.
 
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powermad wrote:
No. What makes KDM combat is both the cool way their deck is their health and the neat damaging of body parts system. Dark Souls might have something ok with the blind spot attack thing, but you're basically looking at a slow dredge of "deal damage, save enough energy to dodge". Which is better I can't say yet, but it dynamic is not what I would describe Dark Souls as.


If you think that is slow then you haven't seen much kdm combat. Where a bad or good roll can either make the game 20 min longer or shorter. Can't really compare these games except the boss fight mechanics. I prefer planning my action and knowing I will do some damage instead of rolling dice and missing an attack.
 
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