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Subject: Do hate crime laws work? rss

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Let's operationalize "work" as "reduce the amount of the designated criminal behaviors after implementation."

What effect do hate crime laws have in decreasing hate crimes?

What effect do hate crime laws have in decreasing crime?

Let's get the snark out of the way: "Sure they work at creating a racist environment of protected class citizens and professional victimization." (No, I don't believe that. Even if they don't work, I believe they're well-intentioned -- I'm simply unsure if they lead anywhere worthwhile.)
 
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I'm pretty sure passing laws have little to no effect on reducing crime. Usually it causes it to go up because more stuff is now illegal.
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I would really need to see statistics to know.

I'm not really sure how effective any law is at controlling behavior - there are so many factors at play.
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I think the question is almost impossible to answer in any reasonable form, as you'd have to find some way to also disentangle it from the changing perspectives of society.
 
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AndrewRogue wrote:
I think the question is almost impossible to answer in any reasonable form, as you'd have to find some way to also disentangle it from the changing perspectives of society.


It's not that bad from an epidemiological standpoint:

Look at countries that share a state border, look at the differences in crime rates as one state changes laws while another does not.

(I mean there are some people who will say "you can't use epidemiology for that!" but they're also flat earthers so who cares.)
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Terwox wrote:
AndrewRogue wrote:
I think the question is almost impossible to answer in any reasonable form, as you'd have to find some way to also disentangle it from the changing perspectives of society.


It's not that bad from an epidemiological standpoint:

Look at countries that share a state border, look at the differences in crime rates as one state changes laws while another does not.

(I mean there are some people who will say "you can't use epidemiology for that!" but they're also flat earthers so who cares.)


For a look at how that would work, this is how you can look at stuff like texting bans:



So you see CA implemented a ban while the surrounding states did not, no effect on collisions, so there's no evidence the ban worked.

More here if you care about that stuff. (Plus more case studies.) http://www.iihs.org/iihs/news/desktopnews/texting-bans-dont-...

Anyway, I don't know shit about politics; I just know about highway safety and some other bs.
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Hate crime laws are a logical extension of political correctness.
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Koldfoot wrote:
Hate crime laws are a logical extension of political correctness.


You missed in the OP when I already got all the snark out of the way.

Quote:
Let's get the snark out of the way: "Sure they work at creating a racist environment of protected class citizens and professional victimization."
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Koldfoot wrote:
Hate crime laws are a logical extension of political correctness.


I agree. I don't doubt the sincerity of *some* of the people who advocate for them but when you try and apply a law-upon-a-law you end up with interpretations based on the prevailing politics of the jurisdiction. There is no way to fix that, which renders hate crimes as a layer or distinction little more than a way to persecute thought. Koldie calls it an extension of political correctness which I agree with.

The other problem is that, like defining rape, the political ideologues who hold power and advocate this sort of needless persecution of the so-called enemies of racial diversity will never stop broadening the definition of hate crime until they feel they have the goods on every person who didn't join their tribe. Which is how you get humorous and also chilling examples like the one Drew posted regarding the deeming of an irate post-it note a hate crime that rises to the level of a full investigation.

The idea of prosecuting a crime based on how one is perceived to feel subjectively is recursive and any failure to convict for the additional crime of hate will result only in an endless and corrosive reapplication of the idea until the desired result is achieved. This is the type of stuff that causes entire societies and civilizations to implode under the weight of their own self-loathing and fear of difference. Advocates of hate crime legislation are effectively the intolerant racists of a modern progressive ideology.
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I don't know about hate crimes working but you might look at the Furgeson effect. The idea that cops won't act for fear of controversy or Blacks won't call 911 and there's since been an uptick in violent crime. Chicago, for example, had a 54 percent increase in murders over 2015. Others claim the data doesn't support it with a hand wave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect
 
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Terwox wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Hate crime laws are a logical extension of political correctness.


You missed in the OP when I already got all the snark out of the way.

Quote:
Let's get the snark out of the way: "Sure they work at creating a racist environment of protected class citizens and professional victimization."


It was no snark.

Once you get that environment you have a great number of people who sympathize with that notion, and many others who see a way to leverage political power from exploiting that notion. A law that legitimizes that nonsense is the logical extension.

And it's done to pander to the ignorant for votes.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
Terwox wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Hate crime laws are a logical extension of political correctness.


You missed in the OP when I already got all the snark out of the way.

Quote:
Let's get the snark out of the way: "Sure they work at creating a racist environment of protected class citizens and professional victimization."


It was no snark.

Once you get that environment you have a great number of people who sympathize with that notion, and many others who see a way to leverage political power from exploiting that notion. A law that legitimizes that nonsense is the logical extension.

And it's done to pander to the ignorant for votes.


That pretty much reads the same as "Republicans want to grind up aborted fetuses and eat them while pandering to stupid evangelicals who are too stupid to stop voting for them" to me.
 
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Quick google as no one knew off the top of their head:

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/28/417231...

Simple answer is: "probably not."

Quote:
The FBI collects hate crime statistics from state and local authorities. Their 2014 Hate Crime Statistics report found about 6,000 hate crime incidents reported in 2013.

But it's likely a vast undercount; the Bureau of Justice Statistics estimated almost 294,000 hate crimes in the year prior to that, based on victim surveys. The number of hate crimes has fluctuated since 2004, with most recently a sharp spike from 2011 to 2012.

So if the laws are effective, wouldn't the number of incidents be going down each year?

Not necessarily. Proponents say a stronger law means more people may be willing to report hate crimes who wouldn't have before.

"Why would you report that you were the victim of a hate crime unless you thought police were going to do something about it?" Lieberman says. "If [a city] pass[es] a strong hate crime law ... it demonstrates that city is now taking these crimes very seriously," he said.

Still, the laws have their critics, who question the usefulness of combating hate by extending prison sentences.

"I think they essentially come down to feel-good laws," said Michael Bronski, a media studies professor at Harvard who co-wrote "Considering Hate: Violence, Goodness, and Justice in American Culture and Politics."
 
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ironcates wrote:
I don't know about hate crimes working but you might look at the Furgeson effect. The idea that cops won't act for fear of controversy or Blacks won't call 911 and there's since been an uptick in violent crime. Chicago, for example, had a 54 percent increase in murders over 2015. Others claim the data doesn't support it with a hand wave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_effect


From wiki:

Quote:
A June 2015 report by the Sentencing Project on the Ferguson Effect on crime in St. Louis found that there is no "credible and comprehensive evidence" of the Ferguson Effect on that city's rising homicide rate.[20] A November 2015 report by the Brennan Center for Justice found that although killings and overall lawlessness were increasing in some U.S. cities, nationwide crime rates were still decreasing, and predicted that crime rates would decrease by 1.5% from 2014 to 2015.[18]

A 2015 study looked at a possible "Ferguson effect" not on crime, but on police willingness to partner with communities. The study found that officers who felt their agency was fair or were confident of their own authority were more likely to partner with their communities, "regardless of the effects of negative publicity".[21]

A February 2016 University of Colorado Boulder study looked at crime statistics from 81 U.S. cities and found no evidence of a Ferguson effect with respect to overall, violent, or property crime, but did identify an increase in robbery rates after the shooting of Michael Brown (while these rates had been decreasing before this shooting).[22] A March 2016 study by Johns Hopkins University researchers Stephen L. Morgan and Joel Pally found that after Brown was shot, rates of many types of crimes in Baltimore decreased relative to what had been expected, while others (such as robbery and burglary) remained unchanged.[23][24]

A June 2016 University of Missouri study published by the National Institute of Justice found that there was an "unprecedented" 16.8% increase in homicides in 56 large cities over the course of 2015,[25][26] and examined the Ferguson effect as one of three plausible explanations recommended for further research. Richard Rosenfeld, the author of the study, stated that "the only explanation that gets the timing right is a version of the Ferguson effect" and that it is his "leading hypothesis".[27]

A 2016 study by sociologists Matthew Desmond and Andrew V. Papachristos concluded that black people were afraid to call 911 after a heavily-publicized violent beating of an unarmed black man by white police officers. After the police beating of Frank Jude in October 2004 was reported in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, there was a 17% drop in 911 calls, and a 32% increase in homicides. “Our research suggests that this happened not because the police 'got fetal' but because many members of the black community stopped calling 911, their trust in the justice system in tatters,“ they wrote.[28][29]

Another 2016 study, led by Edward Maguire of Arizona State University, found no evidence of a "Ferguson Effect" with regard to the number of police officers killed in the line of duty in the United States between August 2014 and March 2016.[30]


So it sounds like if the effet is so, it's confined to urban areas?

Huh, that "afraid to call 911" thing sounds interesting too; I wonder if they've looked at more than one city in 2004.
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Terwox wrote:
Let's operationalize "work" as "reduce the amount of the designated criminal behaviors after implementation."

What effect do hate crime laws have in decreasing hate crimes?

What effect do hate crime laws have in decreasing crime?

Let's get the snark out of the way: "Sure they work at creating a racist environment of protected class citizens and professional victimization." (No, I don't believe that. Even if they don't work, I believe they're well-intentioned -- I'm simply unsure if they lead anywhere worthwhile.)


Hard to define and often an infringement of the 1st amendment. Very subject to rapidly shifting dog whistles and signaling.

Seems like using laws against harrassment would be more clean, clear, and effective.
 
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Hate crime legislation may be problematic in various ways but being unable to treat an attack targeting and so terrorizing a specific group as anything but an individual crime without wider implications is worse. The first business of laws is to maintain a working civil society. If a group such as black people or Jews or whatever cannot go about its business without fear of attacks specifically targeted at them then society break down. Hate crime laws serve a need.
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Terwox wrote:
Let's operationalize "work" as "reduce the amount of the designated criminal behaviors after implementation."

What effect do hate crime laws have in decreasing hate crimes?

What effect do hate crime laws have in decreasing crime?

Let's get the snark out of the way: "Sure they work at creating a racist environment of protected class citizens and professional victimization." (No, I don't believe that. Even if they don't work, I believe they're well-intentioned -- I'm simply unsure if they lead anywhere worthwhile.)


We have a system of laws and a court system to implement those laws. While we often recognize "bad" behavior, it is unworkable to use those courts to seek redress without some relatively narrow working definitions.

Some laws define criminal acts by actual physical harm. More rarely, some laws defined criminal acts by words. Others focus on physical activities offering a significant threat of harm.

No matter what, criminal law considers "mens rea" which is the mental component of a crime, or more simply the intent. We have newer crimes on the books which focus on "terror". Those laws take physical actions (murders, bombings, arson, kidnapping, weapons acquisition and transport and so on) which are otherwise punishable by existing laws and often work to enhance the punishment or provide additional tools to law enforcement because the harm of terrorism is potentially so devastating to society.

Hate crimes also give law enforcement additional tools which may include enhanced sentencing. Prosecutors usually have a tool bag of potential charges and sometimes that gives them greater leverage. Like terrorism, violent acts carried out in the pursuit of a hatred for an entire segment of society can make that segment feel especially vulnerable causing them to change behavior in a manner which lessens their own participation in that very society which is manifestly injurious to all of us.

Murder has been against the law as long as we've had a country. They still happen. Anti-terror laws have been instituted and vigorously enforced since 9/11. They still happen. Hate crimes are no different. They still happen. The real question is whether "hate crimes" legislation provide meaningful tools to law enforcement to detect and prosecute those crimes which, like terror, seek to target and focus on making defined groups in our society more vulnerable.
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jarredscott78 wrote:

If laws are ambiguous they should be clarified by either the legislature that passed them or the relevant courts. I'm arguing a limited argument, not that hate crime laws as implemented are good, bad or otherwise, but that the underlying principle of those laws is. It in my opinion should be a level of criminal intent akin to whether a crime is premeditated, an act of passion, etc. It should also stand against consideration of mitigating circumstances.

If that's punishing thought crime, then any laws about criminal intent are which is absurd.
 
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jarredscott78 wrote:

Prosecuting a crime as a hate crime is wrong in every instance for two reasons:
1: The crime should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. How many violent crimes occur without hate? I suggest that it's close to zero. Is it worse that I hated a black person or my wife or a Jew or a child or a teen or a Mexican or a woman or a disabled person when I am choosing to violently murder them? What if I just hate ugly people? Whet if I hate fat people? Who is excluded from protection from this vague concept? What if I HATE middle class white males?

What you're ignoring is that there's a fundamental difference between a simple murder and a racially motivated lynching. As someone noted above, a hate crime implies an ongoing threat to the targeted community beyind the single act. Punishing the single act to the full extent of the law does not deal with the terrorizing the community aspect.
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jarredscott78 wrote:

Who gets to decide who are the protected classes under hate crime legislation?

We call them courts and legislatures.
Quote:

In my world the concept doesn't exist,…

What a privileged world you live in. You don't have to see burned out churches and schools or lynched family members. You don't have to wonder if it's going to be you next or where the next attack is going to come from. Maybe if you pretend hard enough, all that will go away.
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jarredscott78 wrote:

You don't get it, which has never surprised me. You're one of hundreds of millions of short-sighted people who believe that as long as your interests are served that everything is fine. It's a natural human inclination. And yet post-Trump it looks like I will have to learn all of these lessons again since it seems they will not take.

I love how is your mind equal justice for everyone is some bizarre self-serving personal interest of mine.
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jarredscott78 wrote:
Personally I prefer to trust in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to protect us from the spineless comprisers that are attempting to literally scrap our system of government that made us great in favor of some nonsense similar to what made a bunch of other countries crap.

How is asking the legislature and courts to do their jobs against the Constitution?
 
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jarredscott78 wrote:
So you trust the legislature to define who are victims of hate crimes now? Answer the question. How about the courts? You think the legislature and courts should be trusted with this without our input going forward? You think it's a good idea to give the state ambiguous latitude to decide who are the protected classes and how to prosecute them? Now? With Trump coming in? You're totally fine with the concept you claim to support? Republican majority in the House and Senate? Totally ok with allowing the courts and legislature deciding who gets protected beyond the extent of the law that applies to everyone else equally for crimes?

Hate crime is a concept that can be used against you as easily as for you.

You're a big government liberal. You're in favor of short-sighted solutions that end up biting you in the ass someday.

Who's appealing to emotion now?
 
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jarredscott78 wrote:

Which brach(es) of the government do you concede your constitutional rights to going forward into perpetuity?

What an ignorant and loaded question. You paint me as appealing to emotion, but you do nothing else but appeal to nightmare scenarios full of emotion.
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Protected class in the sense of hate speech laws does not refer to a group of people, but rather to certain classifications.

For example, in hate speech laws, race is a protected class. Not specifically black people. Religion is a protected class, not Jewish people. Etc.

It doesn't apply to different groups differently, except to the extend that hate crimes affects different groups dis-proportionality.
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