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Subject: Should American Muslims be encouraged to make use of 2nd amendment rights? rss

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Julius Waller
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So the thread about the Ohio terrorist attack yielded two interesting views. Here's a section of Les Marshall's post:

Quote:
(...) I have argued for years against folks who contend the 2nd Amendment is outdated either because the modern army is too powerful to resist or that the US could never devolve into a tyranny. Now you have a president elect who casually talks about banning people due to religion, resuming and increasing the use of torture, imprisoning people or taking their citizenship for engaging in speech (flag burning). (...)

Along the arc of history, I would contend the concept of the armed citizen has not vanished at all. Hopefully, the more impulsive nature of some politicians will be constrained by the checks and balances of the system in whole and there will not be a need to demonstrate why such rights shouldn't be lost.


Then we have Ferret's statement regarding how many school deaths it would take for him to be willing to give up his 2nd amendment rights:

Quote:
The number is infinity....there is literally no number that would in any way to reduce or impact my right to bear arms. Literally. None.

My rights don't start or end with bad behaviour by others.

What's your inverse out of curiosity? You're suggesting Drew should have an upper limit; what's your lower limit?



Ferret


So putting two and two together - if we presume the American Muslims should interpret the statements of the incoming President as potentially repressing their religion (much as the founding fathers perceived Britain threatened their religion(s)) would all the 2nd amendment fans on here be happy to see a wholesale arming of their fellow American Muslims?

What do you think would happen if we suddenly saw long lines of American Muslims standing outside gunshops to collect their semi-automatic weapons? Would this impact the 2nd amendment views on background checks? Cooling off periods?

Not to be a chicken, here's my view - I support the right to own guns responsibly. I therefore have no problems to see some limits to the types of guns available to me or to undergo even repeated checks to own a gun or even to have to wait before I go and collect what I buy.

EDIT: Typo correction
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Adrian Hague
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A provocative and interesting thought experiment!
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Steven Woodcock
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I think all American citizens should be encouraged to exercise their Second Amendment rights...Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Odinsar--all are welcome.



Ferret
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i love these "thought experiments" which skip the current reality, where black people in practice clearly aren't allowed to exercise their second amendment rights in the same manner that white people are

or the historical context, which is that "gun rights" supporters have historically been willing to support gun control laws when the aim of those laws was to keep minorities from owning guns

in short: this is a boring and pointless masturbatory argument, much like most gun rights discussions are
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Sam I am
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The only thing that will stop a nut-job with a gun is another nut-job with a gun.

Yes clearly, everyone needs a gun.
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James King
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bjlillo wrote:
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "should they be encouraged", but I have no problem with other groups finally realizing the value of the 2nd Amendment. It has been one of the more entertaining things to watch as lefties who believe Trump is literally Hitler are talking about things that would require taking up arms.

Since Trump himself admires Mussolini and even Tweeted one of Mussolini's quotes, it's safe to say that that's a grand distinction that makes no meaningful difference since Mussolini was like Hitler in being Fascist and anti-Semitic, even helping the Third Reich in fomenting the Holocaust.


 
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Moshe Callen
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I think the US courts, legislature, etc., need to work on clarifying exactly what the2d Amendment means in the 21st century.
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Ron
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whac3 wrote:
I think the US courts, legislature, etc., need to work on clarifying exactly what the2d Amendment means in the 21st century.

Because obviously all of the laws and restrictions that are already in place aren't enough to make some people happy.

Is that what you mean? Because clearly as the United States slowly evolves to an overwhelming majority of "shall issue" gun permits, it should be obvious that the majority of voters prefer to have gun rights.
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Drew1365 wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
The only thing that will stop a nut-job with a gun is another nut-job with a gun.


So, police are all "nut-jobs" to you?

Did I say that?
Assume 50% of what I say has implied green font.

 
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Ron
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mightygodking wrote:
i love these "thought experiments" which skip the current reality, where black people in practice clearly aren't allowed to exercise their second amendment rights in the same manner that white people are

or the historical context, which is that "gun rights" supporters have historically been willing to support gun control laws when the aim of those laws was to keep minorities from owning guns

in short: this is a boring and pointless masturbatory argument, much like most gun rights discussions are


Re the bolded area, can you please highlight when you are talking about? It's hard to discuss vague accusations with any objectivity.
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Patrick Dignam
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What I am not getting is that the pathetic P.O.S. in Ohio didn't use a gun, but a knife and a car.

Regardless of the tool used --- evil finds a way. It's like building a better mousetrap, you just get better mice.

This is why there are so many bumper stickers that say "Guns don't kill people. People kill people".
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Alexandre P.
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I wouldn't encourage anyone to get - more - guns.

All Americans have the right to buy guns but I wouldn't encourage persons who, because of their religion, are perceived as a threat by a part of the population to get guns as they would be perceived as even bigger threats by the ones already perceiving them as threats.

Are you suggesting they engage in a weapon race in order to prove that weapons are not a solution ?
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Moshe Callen
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linguistfromhell wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I think the US courts, legislature, etc., need to work on clarifying exactly what the2d Amendment means in the 21st century.

Because obviously all of the laws and restrictions that are already in place aren't enough to make some people happy.

Is that what you mean? Because clearly as the United States slowly evolves to an overwhelming majority of "shall issue" gun permits, it should be obvious that the majority of voters prefer to have gun rights.

No because the 2nd Amendment was invoked by the Southern States in 1860 and they lost. So what exactly does it mean now?
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VikingBerserker wrote:
What I am not getting is that the pathetic P.O.S. in Ohio didn't use a gun, but a knife and a car.

Regardless of the tool used --- evil finds a way. It's like building a better mousetrap, you just get better mice.

This is why there are so many bumper stickers that say "Guns don't kill people. People kill people".


Are there mouse traps that can kill many mice quickly before they need to be reloaded?
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Adrian Hague
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VikingBerserker wrote:
This is why there are so many bumper stickers that say "Guns don't kill people. People kill people".
Which is pretty ironic considering that car deaths outweigh gun deaths by several orders of magnitude!
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Mutton Chops
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VikingBerserker wrote:
What I am not getting is that the pathetic P.O.S. in Ohio didn't use a gun, but a knife and a car.

Regardless of the tool used --- evil finds a way. It's like building a better mousetrap, you just get better mice.

This is why there are so many bumper stickers that say "Guns don't kill people. People kill people".


Indeed they do. But they can do it much more quickly, efficiently, in far greater numbers and for longer if they use a gun. This is demonstrable. It's a bit like saying "Grenades don't kill people, people kill people" - it's trivially true, but most people, I would submit, would be loath to allow their fellow man unlimited access to portable explosives.
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VikingBerserker wrote:
What I am not getting is that the pathetic P.O.S. in Ohio didn't use a gun, but a knife and a car.

Regardless of the tool used --- evil finds a way. It's like building a better mousetrap, you just get better mice.

This is why there are so many bumper stickers that say "Guns don't kill people. People kill people".


interesting sidenote: in the incident to which you refer, only one person was actually killed, and it was the guy with the knife and the car when he was, you know, shot to death by police

it's almost as if his chosen method of attack was, I dunno, dramatically less efficient than using a gun somehow
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Mac Mcleod
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bjlillo wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
VikingBerserker wrote:
What I am not getting is that the pathetic P.O.S. in Ohio didn't use a gun, but a knife and a car.

Regardless of the tool used --- evil finds a way. It's like building a better mousetrap, you just get better mice.

This is why there are so many bumper stickers that say "Guns don't kill people. People kill people".


interesting sidenote: in the incident to which you refer, only one person was actually killed, and it was the guy with the knife and the car when he was, you know, shot to death by police

it's almost as if his chosen method of attack was, I dunno, dramatically less efficient than using a gun somehow


You're certainly right about that. The attack in Nice showed us how ineffective vehicles are for killing a bunch of people in rapid succession.


I agree multi-ton vehicles are highly effective in surprise attacks against crowds of helpless civilians! About as effective as an AR15 and less expensive to obtain.
 
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bjlillo wrote:
You're certainly right about that. The attack in Nice showed us how ineffective vehicles are for killing a bunch of people in rapid succession.


I was actually waiting for someone to say "but Nice" because Nice was an outlier in most respects - not least that you had a situation where there was a packed crowd along the Promenade des Anglais and the opportunity for the driver to build up lethal speed as he approached the crowd. Most of the time that option doesn't exist for potential attackers.

When you say "but Nice," you're ignoring the fact that there are plenty of vehicular mass attacks, enough for us to generally judge their lethality as a rule. Like, Nice wasn't even the first vehicular mass attack in France this decade. There was the one in Dijon in 2014 (eleven injured, zero dead) and the one in Nantes in 2014 (ten injured, one dead), and the one in Saint-Quentin in 2015 (three injured, one dead), as well as the one in Graz, Austria in 2015 (36 injured, three dead), and the two incidents in Jerusalem in 2014 (13 injured and four dead and seven injured and three dead, respectively).

Other than a couple of incidents involving bulldozers (which tend to be worse because they involved knocking over buildings), the worst vehicular attack in the last twenty years other than Nice was in 2009 in Apeldoorn (ten injured, seven dead), and that one had a lot in common with Nice because it was at a parade so you had the combination of "lots of pedestrians in a public space that was easily accessible by car."

Think for a second about how many mass shootings don't work if the perp uses a car instead. Orlando, nope - maybe he can ram the club and try to kill people that way, but then you've got a drastically lower body count. Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, Aurora and San Bernadino were all also shootings where the victims were mostly or entirely killed indoors. The Paris attacks mostly happened indoors, as did the mass shootings in Winnenden and Kauhajoki. Anders Brevik shot people outside, but he did it on a tiny island where a car wouldn't have been practical to bring so he basically qualifies too.

And then think about all the smaller family-based shootings, the ones that have barely become a blip on the mass-shooting radar, like that mass murder in Pike County earlier this year. And then think about the fact that there are about 300 vehicular homicides in the USA each year, and 11,000 gun homicides (plus another 20,000 gun suicides), and the inescapable conclusion is that most people have figured out that it's a lot easier to kill people - and most of the time, easier to kill many people - with a gun rather than a car, because a gun is expressly designed to kill things. That's the whole point of a gun in the first place. It would be surprising if it was easier to kill lots of people with anything else, especially if "anything else" didn't require advanced knowledge most people don't have (like, say, flying a plane or making a bomb).

But, of course, you knew all of this already, because you own a gun, and if I said "well, you can kill people with a car, why don't you just use your car" you would rightly look at me like I'm an idiot. Same as if I said "why don't you just carry a big knife instead of a gun, you can still stab people" or "hey, how about you carry a hammer, you can beat the baddies to death with it."
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Julius Waller
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Ferretman wrote:
I think all American citizens should be encouraged to exercise their Second Amendment rights...Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Odinsar--all are welcome.



Ferret


I have to say I respect that - its a consistent point of view. I think most people would feel more nervous about loads of Muslims buying guns rather than Duck dynasty types.

Alexandre
Quote:
Are you suggesting they engage in a weapon race in order to prove that weapons are not a solution ?


I am not suggesting anything of the kind, I was just wondering whether the 2nd amendment all out supporters could accept that it means potential terrorists potential people's militia's would arm themselves against innocent civilians supporters of the king/Trump.

Ferret has made a clear statement that he can live with that and I respect that. Personally as I pointed out in my OP I don't mind if we are a little more judicious in handing out weapons but I do agree anyone regardless of race or religion should in principle have a right to bear arms responsibly.

Quote:
i love these "thought experiments" which skip the current reality, where black people in practice clearly aren't allowed to exercise their second amendment rights in the same manner that white people are

or the historical context, which is that "gun rights" supporters have historically been willing to support gun control laws when the aim of those laws was to keep minorities from owning guns

in short: this is a boring and pointless masturbatory argument, much like most gun rights discussions are


To the cannuck reposter - sorry the 2nd amendment doesn't differentiate by race. Its not a thought experiment in this sense - legally it doesn't matter what race or religion you are: you can own guns. Your claim that possibly minorities are not allowed to own guns same as - sorry this is how I see what you say - white people is not factually correct. I do agree that in practice, I am not confident that if I were to enter a gun shop saying Allah Akhbar, I would be treated the same as someone who claims to have found Jesus. Nevertheless its the principle that counts.

EDIT : More tyos
 
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Actual discussion of the OP:

Given the current political climate I think that Muslim Americans should seriously consider becoming armed if they are not already.

My opinion of the merits of a heavily (and overly) armed society aside, this is the country we/they live in. For the same reason I have, in the past, advocated that gay people have a gun handy, especially in certain areas of the country. There are people who will seek to harm you because of your identity and you might need to use force to stop them.
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TrustyJules wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
I think all American citizens should be encouraged to exercise their Second Amendment rights...Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Odinsar--all are welcome.



Ferret


I have to say I respect that - its a consistent point of view. I think most people would feel more nervous about loads of Muslims buying guns rather than Duck dynasty types.

Alexandre
Quote:
Are you suggesting they engage in a weapon race in order to prove that weapons are not a solution ?


I am not suggesting anything of the kind, I was just wondering whether the 2nd amendment all out supporters could accept that it means potential terrorists potential people's militia's would arm themselves against innocent civilians supporters of the king/Trump.

Ferret has made a clear statement that he can live with that and I respect that. Personally as I pointed out in my OP I don't mind if we are a little more judicious in handing out weapons but I do agree anyone regardless of race or religion should in principle have a right to bear arms responsibly.

Quote:
i love these "thought experiments" which skip the current reality, where black people in practice clearly aren't allowed to exercise their second amendment rights in the same manner that white people are

or the historical context, which is that "gun rights" supporters have historically been willing to support gun control laws when the aim of those laws was to keep minorities from owning guns

in short: this is a boring and pointless masturbatory argument, much like most gun rights discussions are


To the cannuck reposter - sorry the 2nd amendment doesn't differentiate by race. Its not a thought experiment in this sense - legally it doesn't matter what race or religion you are: you can own guns. Your claim that possibly minorities are not allowed to own guns same as - sorry this is how I see what you say - white people is not factually correct. I do agree that in practice, I am not confident that if I were to enter a gun shop saying Allah Akhbar, I would be treated the same as someone who claims to have found Jesus. Nevertheless its the principle that counts.

EDIT : More tyos


You can own them but we've seen videos here that non-whites open carrying are at risk of being shot because the police start with guns drawn, call on a half dozen other police to back them up, have their weapons temporarily confiscated, are forced to identify themselves, are arrested and detained (and told that it isn't really an arrest).

Meanwhile, whites open carrying are stopped by a single officer, no weapon drawn, aggressively but politely questioned about their identity, not handcuffed (and without identifying themselves), and allowed to go on their way without having been handcuffed, without their weapon being confiscated.

Meanwhile black children carrying toy guns are shot and killed within seconds of the police arriving on the seen.

Meanwhile drunk white guys with rifles acting in a threatening manner are talked to carefully by the police, disarmed and arrested.

Meanwhile blacks who follow procedures and state they have a weapon and a CCW license are shot and killed.

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Julius Waller
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maxo-texas wrote:
SNIP

Meanwhile black children carrying toy guns are shot and killed within seconds of the police arriving on the seen.

Meanwhile drunk white guys with rifles acting in a threatening manner are talked to carefully by the police, disarmed and arrested.

Meanwhile blacks who follow procedures and state they have a weapon and a CCW license are shot and killed.




So whats the solution Mayo? 2nd amendment for all or an abrogation of the 2nd amendment for all? Ferret is clear - he's for an unfettered 2nd amendment right for all. Me I am saying some limits are entirely reasonable. You seem to be saying you are accepting that white people may own guns more 'equally' than non-white people. Just to reference Orwell's animal farm about some being more equal than others.
 
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bjlillo wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
But, of course, you knew all of this already, because you own a gun, and if I said "well, you can kill people with a car, why don't you just use your car" you would rightly look at me like I'm an idiot. Same as if I said "why don't you just carry a big knife instead of a gun, you can still stab people" or "hey, how about you carry a hammer, you can beat the baddies to death with it."


You're kind of a moron if you don't understand that there's a time and a place where each of these will be more effective than the other (but we already knew that.)


But that's exactly my point: with respect to each type of tool, there's a floor and a ceiling as to how many people you can kill with it in a short period of time, depending on location, scenario, etc. But guns have a broadly consistent floor and ceiling, whereas everything else is wildly situational.

We started talking about vehicular attacks because you brought up Nice to "disprove" the idea that vehicular murder is less efficient than gun murder - which it clearly is not, as the numbers demonstrate amply - but the thing about Nice is that the killer might not have been able to kill 86 people if he'd had an AR-15 instead of a cargo truck, but he probably would have been able to manage 30 or 40 with the gun (crowded street, just start spraying bullets). Whereas if you give most spree shooters a truck instead of a gun, the converse is not true, and we know it's not true because most Carmageddon re-enactors don't come close to approaching the Nice body count or the body count for your average mass shooting.

I don't understand how gun enthusiasts can simultaneously praise their guns as The Only Thing Preventing Tyranny and also pretend that any other tool or weapon is just as effective at mass murder as guns are. It's an amazing disconnect.
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In tsarist Russia, when Jews started buying firearms because they feared a pogrom, this often led to rumours spreading about Jews arming themselves, which in turn added to the already heated atmosphere that helped precipitate pogroms. And during pogroms , Jews who sought to defend themselves with firearms were often overwhelmed and were subject to more violent attacks than those who were unarmed.

Of course, today things might be different, in the USA, with Muslims.
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