Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
29 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Terra Mystica» Forums » Organized Play

Subject: A Petition For Season 15's true champion rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
bob lawblaw
msg tools
Can we please display enkidu as the season 15 champion on the main TM Tournament website's list of past champions? I'm not involved with the situation (and if there's details I don't understand, then please forgive my ignorance), but I strongly feel that you should not be declared the winner of a season of the tournament by stalling out the final game on a leech 1 for 0 at the end of round 6 to block the true winner. As an observer, there could not be a more clear cut case of intentional stalling to change the outcome of the tournament outside of the competitive spirit. I don't know enkidu, but I know I would be absolutely furious with the situation if it was me. Given that there is absolutely 100% no question whatsoever that enkidu won game 4, the least that we as a community could do for them is correctly list them as the season winner on the tournament page.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scotty Doggy
msg tools
Retardedonkey won the season. The rules refer to future punishment, not stripping of the results. If he was deemed ineligible, that game still remains unresolved, thus the present second place person, Machiavelli becomes the winner. There isn't adjustment in lower divisions, thus consistency is that there isn't in division 1 either. Whether Enkidu would be eligible to win being multi-players would be another consideration. It is a chapter closed.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Linda Chov
China
BEIJING
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My games ended quickly this time, so I didn't watch the end of other leagues.

Can anyone quickly explain what happened here? I'm curious.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Hawaiian
msg tools
mb
^CHeck out the season 15 post on here.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Haas
United States
Mountain View
CA
flag msg tools
RainbowJoe dropped from a couple of the top table games based on time. Most notably, he dropped from G6 with one obvious move left; had he made it, retardedonkey would win the game and thus the group.

However, he dropped without making that move, which means that Stones won G6 and, based on the position in G5, enkidu was in line to win the group - he'd have enough points after completing that game to win the tiebreaker at 13 points.

But if G5 did not finish, the way the tiebreakers sort out, retardedonkey winds up winning the group; so he stalled to prevent the game from finishing, thereby winning the group.

Under normal circumstances this would be universally considered an asshole move. Many people believe it is anyway. But there also exists the school of thought that it was somewhat justified by the fact that he would have won anyway had RainbowJoe had not dropped, on the basis that the "right" person winds up winning the group, albeit for the wrong reason.

Adding to the complication is the fact that enkidu revealed that he/they is not a single individual but a group of friends playing as a team, which people have different opinions of the acceptability of.

Long story short: enkidu decided to withdraw from future tourneys due to concerns about their team-ness, and retardedonkey is sitting out next season as (partly self-imposed?) punishment for stalling a game to win the group.
10 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Linda Chov
China
BEIJING
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is awesome!

Why on Earth was I watching that faux election drama while THIS was unfolding?!
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clement Plas
Gambia
msg tools
I don't understand the difference between the actions of RainbowJoe and retardedonkey. They both stopped playing at one point ?
If retardedonkey should not participate next season, RainbowJoe should not either.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
willy wumse
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, what a drama! This needs a larger article with images, proofs and everything
Someone willing to investigate?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ola Caster
Sweden
Uppsala
flag msg tools
mb
Rashyn wrote:
I don't understand the difference between the actions of RainbowJoe and retardedonkey. They both stopped playing at one point ?
If retardedonkey should not participate next season, RainbowJoe should not either.

The difference is that in one case we know it was deliberate.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clement Plas
Gambia
msg tools
kruppy wrote:
Rashyn wrote:
I don't understand the difference between the actions of RainbowJoe and retardedonkey. They both stopped playing at one point ?
If retardedonkey should not participate next season, RainbowJoe should not either.

The difference is that in one case we know it was deliberate.


So it would have been ok if he didn't say that it was deliberate ? Sounds pretty weird to me.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Haas
United States
Mountain View
CA
flag msg tools
Rashyn wrote:
I don't understand the difference between the actions of RainbowJoe and retardedonkey. They both stopped playing at one point ?
If retardedonkey should not participate next season, RainbowJoe should not either.


It might be noted for the record that RainbowJoe is *not* playing this season. Although admittedly the reasons for that are unclear - AFAIK no one has talked to him since he dropped from the games.

More generally, though, I think there's two key differences: the benefits of the action, and the intent.

Benefits: RainbowJoe did not benefit from his failure to play. Like most players that drop due to taking too long to play, he was punished for his slow play by losing and potential relegation (which did indeed happen). As these are not things that most of us aspire to, this is a deterrent to slow play. Retardedonkey, on the other hand, explicitly did benefit - it caused him to win the group. And so if the goal is to deter slow play, stalling, etc., there should be some other punishment to discourage people from doing the same in the future.

Intent: Retardedonkey explicitly stated his intent to stall on the forums, and even if he did not, the fact that he so clearly benefitted from doing so would have made his actions suspicious. We do not know why RainbowJoe dropped. Its possible that he decided he really did want to get relegated for division 2 and disrupt the integrity of the top table games... but its more likely that some external event intervened and caused him to be unable to play in a timely fashion. Still unfortunate, still disruptive to the group's games... but not intentional.

And as the rules forbid intentional stalling - which Retardedonkey clearly did and clearly benefitted from - he should be punished (even if you're of the school of thought that his actions were justified). Whereas RainbowJoe - and the dozens of other players that drop each season - are punished by losing, and because of that there's little reason to assume intent and thus no rules violation has occurred.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In case of a player who drops in at least one game in a season, and then signs up again for the next season: should there be some sort of minimum vetting (learned this word from TheDonald ), e.g. requesting an email with an explanation and the commitment to not do it again? The email may be full of lies, but just writing it would be considered sufficient. Of course, when it happens again, the player would enter the black list.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clement Plas
Gambia
msg tools
DocCool wrote:
In case of a player who drops in at least one game in a season, and then signs up again for the next season: should there be some sort of minimum vetting (learned this word from TheDonald ), e.g. requesting an email with an explanation and the commitment to not do it again? The email may be full of lies, but just writing it would be considered sufficient. Of course, when it happens again, the player would enter the black list.


This is a nice idea imo, it would surely reduce the number of people dropping games, in any division of the tourney.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Haas
United States
Mountain View
CA
flag msg tools
I think I'd start by pulling some stats on how big a problem it actually is. What portion of players who drop from a tournament season drop again from some future season?

If we find that its pretty common - that there are a lot of repeat offenders - than some sort of system to increase the barrier to entry for such people might make sense.

But my guess would be that a lot of people who drop either a) drop due to some one-off event - a blizzard knocking out their power, or whatever - and thus return to reliable play thereafter, or b) realize that their schedule does not allow them to play enough to participate, and don't. And if that's true - that most people take care of the problem on their own and don't have trouble beyond the one season - then there isn't much point in taking up their time and that of whoever has to read the excuses to prevent a problem that isn't much of a problem in the first place.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clement Plas
Gambia
msg tools
To react on your point Steve, about the fact that it benefits retardedonkey, I don't feel like it's valid. If two players in the same game happen to have connection problems or for whatever reason stop playing, why would you blame more the player that was winning over the other ?

The stalling by retardedonkey would have been suspicious if he didn't come and say it was on purpose, but would all this discussion have happened if he didn't say anything ?
Is there a way to find out that a player is stalling a game on purpose without him stating it ? If no, retardedonkey would have won the tourney and kept playing next season.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Wolfpacker
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmb
DocCool wrote:
should there be some sort of minimum vetting (learned this word from TheDonald ),


Political joke: Merkel does no vetting, Clinton would have done minimum vetting, and "The Donald" wants EXTREME vetting!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I do appreciate Skyswooper's/retarteddonkey's honesty, but it would clearly have become a topic even if he went down the sneaky road. Several days without doing the final trivial leech may go unnoticed in lower divisions, but not in division 1...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clement Plas
Gambia
msg tools
So as long as it is not in high divisions, you won't be punished by stalling games to your own advantage. Because nobody cares
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthias Reitberger
Germany
Nürnberg
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rashyn wrote:
So as long as it is not in high divisions, you won't be punished by stalling games to your own advantage. Because nobody cares


I guess your opponents care and might inform Daniel.
I guess that's the better way than some BGG discussion.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Space Trucker
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rashyn wrote:
So as long as it is not in high divisions, you won't be punished by stalling games to your own advantage. Because nobody cares

Bjoelletz wrote that he doesn't check leagues on his own initiative - I wouldn't rely on him not caring if someone else checks and asks for moderation (e.g. the other guys playing in the league):
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24364016#24364016

I hope that we can spare him the extra work due to such selfish and unfair behaviour in future and simply remember that it's a fun tournament that Bjoelletz runs for us in his free time completely for free and solely for the game's and bgg's sake.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jari S
Finland
flag msg tools
A hsrd time limit of 15 days per player with no grace time would have prevented the whole issue.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loon
United States
flag msg tools
mb
jsaarhel wrote:
A hsrd time limit of 15 days per player with no grace time would have prevented the whole issue.


Yes, and it would have raised other issues that were worse. See: every other thread on this topic.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Space Trucker
Germany
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jsaarhel wrote:
A hsrd time limit of 15 days per player with no grace time would have prevented the whole issue.

Yeah, this would ensure every game to finish. But it would have a price: A huge lot more players would drop from their games, which would distort many more games and also shy away some players. In my opinion this price is to high to fix the very last few games with 3-4 slow players. It's actually 5 out of ~1000 games that did not finish this season, which is already way lower than in seasons with the less strict chess clock or even the 3 days move timer rule.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert
Germany
Bocholt
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm still convinced that the current clock settings are at or near the "sweet spot" in the balance between "few unfinished games without blacklisting of (perceived) culprits" and "few drops".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam
msg tools
mbmbmb
Now that we've got the chess clock basically sorted, we should just wait for all the games to finish before starting the next tournament.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.