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Subject: Point System - Looking for Feedback rss

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Zachary Ruiz
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I’ve come up with a relatively solid (in my opinion, of course) point system. It takes into account differing die types, limits (for heroes), defense, free movement, skills, encumbrance, and more. Skills have differing prices depending on scenario type. Scenario types are Protect, Assassinate, Steal, Escape, Stop, Other

I’ll dive right in the with the charts and then put more info at the bottom of this post.

First off, point values for the base game scenarios with the suggested heroes. Showing points for each Hero, the Overlord’s total points, the difference, and the percentage of games won by the Heroes according to that Survey posted on this site. With a negative point differential you’d expect a % of less than 50, and in most cases that is true.




Now, a chart that gives point totals for each of the Stretch Goal heroes, equipped as per the chart below (based off a post here) for each scenario. Note that for characters with Leadership, if the character was given an ally, you need to also pay for the ally (chart below). If you don’t give them an ally, lower the price for the Hero by 4.




Ally Costs - Asterisks mean the Ally has skills that change on a per scenario basis and need to be added in. For these allies the skill is sacrifice, so add 10 points if playing a "Sacrifice" objective, 4 points otherwise.



Suggested Starting Equipment



Now, all the heroes before any equipment has been given, but with skill costs included. This is ideal if you want to equip character’s themselves. Note that this is not on a per scenario basis but rather on based on different “Objectives” of the scenarios. A scenario can have more than one, if so just choose the higher value. The color coding is meant to remind you that some heroes have skill prices baked in assuming they are getting certain equipment (Circular Strike, Ambidexterous, etc).




Equipment, it's a long image so I just linked it.
http://i.imgur.com/BwvWHHs.png


For those interested in tweaking the overlord side of things, here's something that could help. This is most of the minions/leaders/monsters. It's a large image so I just linked it. Those with asterisks have skills whose values change depending on the scenario type, so once you determine the scenario type you have to go back and add that value in. Price is per figure. And you need to add 1 point for every Life Point.
http://i.imgur.com/jXlUedb.png

And finally, all the skill prices depending on the scenario type.

http://i.imgur.com/owFFGyf.png

Methodology
Heroes
Sum of all limits * expected value of the die
+ Difference of encumbrance from 10
+ Double difference in Gems from 9
+ Skills
+ Equipment/Spells
+ Average base move/max move


Skills
This section was entirely subjective, and obviously is where I bet the most disagreement will be. I rated them based on how useful they appeared to me, taking into account the games I’ve played (not all that many) and feedback I’ve read online.


Weapons
* Sum of expected value * limit for the three categories (melee, defense/parry, ranged)
* static modifier for Repeatable Ranged Weapons

Armor is similar


Minions/Leaders/Monsters
* Same concept
* Attack Die expected value * number of die
+ movement and defense values
+ Skills (ignoring leap, swim, and climb, as the cheap points cost of these is overwhelming in large groups)


Calculating a Scenario’s Point Total
Look at objectives to determine scenario type
* Sum up all the figures
* Add the number of gems that are refreshed each turn
* Add the Total Number of Gems - 8
* Now for the subjective part, look at the reinforcements and special rules


For tiles that replace each other, add half the value of the replacement tile

For tiles that get added, if they all can get added add the value without including life points - this is a balance tweak to account for the fact that you won’t have access to the tile the whole game.

If only a fixed number (In the Heart of Darkness style) can be added. Take the average of the options and add that

Most events can be given a value by looking at the creatures that spawn or the dice that are used

Beyond those specifics, there were a few places where I just straight up changed a value here or there ( a couple weapons, mostly) when I disagreed. There is always an art and a level of subjectivity to any Points system.


How Well Playtested Is This?
Not very, to be frank. I’ve tried switching around heroes to keep the balance, or upping the power level when things seemed too difficult and it worked fine, but I have only been playing Solo recently (1 hand against the other) so I’m not sure how accurate my testing is. The data roughly matches the percentages gathered in the Spreadsheet, so I don’t think it’s horribly off balance.


I’d appreciate any feedback any of y’all would like to give. I hope this expands people’s options as they play the game.
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koraldon
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Looks amazing!
Would love to see something like this Incorporated in the new rulebook...
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Zachary Ruiz
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Glad you like it.

In the next couple days I'm planning to come up balanced "parties" for each scenario, so that people can swap them in without having to even look at the points charts. Plus finish giving point costs to all the spells.

And this weekend I'll hopefully finish the Stretch Goal and King Pledge scenarios.

Side note: if anyone wants to send me the stats for the Add-ons I can figure out the costs.
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James Groesbeck
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swammeyjoe wrote:
In the next couple days I'm planning to come up balanced "parties" for each scenario, so that people can swap them in without having to even look at the points charts.


Wow, that would be awesome. Thanks!
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New Castle
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This is amazing work!
Someone made something similar ( a point system)in another thread maybe looking at it will help improve the accuracy of yours?


This is the link to the post:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23936639#23936639

To quote the thread:
"Here's my translation of the french post from Budala Budala above:

Conan Focus – The Minions

Let’s take a more precise look at the switch table for Minions
You want to some variation in your games, give a bit more challenge to your Heroes? It’s definitely possible, but in order to achieve that, one must keep certain facts in mind.

Proposed scenarios have been tested with one precise configuration which allow a certain balance between protagonists. Up to you to change that set up, but that might give a twist for the worse when it comes to balance and swing it toward one side or the other.

A minion tile contains all important information : movement, armor, number and type of dice to throw in case of attack, as well as skills.
So i’ve given an amount of points for each statistic depending on their importance in the game.

The more a minion has armor and movement, the more it’ll be worth.
If a minion rolls 1 red die rather than yellow, it’ll be worth more in comparison as well.

Some basic skills (leap, swim, climb) are not all useable in certain scenarios while others( Blocker, Misfortune, Sacrifice) have a very strong impact over a game’s progress. Their value has been determined taking this into consideration.

Generally speaking, you’ll be able to switch one unit for another (as long as its value is +1 or -1 compared to the original unit) without altering the scenario, but it’ll change your style of play.

An example :
The Giant Serpant is a monster worth 10,5 points.
You’ll be able to switch it with Thak (9,5 points) or the 2nd version of Thog (11,5 points)

Nevertheless, there are some minions that require a little more attention before they can take another’s place.

The "Blocker" skill : There are only 3 cases of that skill amongst minions; Pict Warriors (base box), Tower Guards (khitai) and the Aesir zombies (Nordheim)

Normal safe guidelines will be easy to apply. The Tower Guards are weak and will be used to slow Heroes down. The Aesir and Picts, as their rank on the list implies, will be more troublesome and easily bog down the Overlord’s opponents (i advise, in this case, to play with one Hero with the "uncatchable" skill)

The "Sacrifice" skill : No matter their profile, they will have to be managed correctly as they can take hits for Monsters or Leaders that Heroes must eliminate. You might even make titan strikes toward Skuthus, but he will not fall due to the little lackeys who will ruin your efforts. To go around that issue, the Hero team should contain a champion with the "Circular attack" skill

The "Ranged" skill : Only 5 troop types have this skill, but introducing them in a scenario that does not contain any ranged type may or may not have an important impact depending if the map used provide long line of sight.

The "Bad Luck" skill : Mummies (King Pledge), The Monstruous Crow (Nordheim) and the Black Ones (add-on) are the only ones having this skill. It prevents all heroes in the same zone as them to re-roll dice. This is very problematic for some Heroes like Valeria and Shentu (Khitai), who draw part of their power from the numerous re-rolls they get.

So with an Armor and Move of 3, we understand better why the Black Ones hold the top of the list (and to think there are 10…)

I hope these few precisions will be useful and allow players to get more fun with this great game."




Someone also made a scenario creation tilekit program (haven't tried it)
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/24358790#24358790
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Zachary Ruiz
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hish wrote:
This is amazing work!
Someone made something similar ( a point system)in another thread maybe looking at it will help improve the accuracy of yours?


Yep, I saw that post pretty early on and it's what inspired me to start on mine.

About the tileset, how do I get the map images into the program? I see them in the Conan folder, but I don't see them as an option in the menu or a way to Import them?
 
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J P
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swammeyjoe wrote:
hish wrote:
This is amazing work!
Someone made something similar ( a point system)in another thread maybe looking at it will help improve the accuracy of yours?


Yep, I saw that post pretty early on and it's what inspired me to start on mine.

About the tileset, how do I get the map images into the program? I see them in the Conan folder, but I don't see them as an option in the menu or a way to Import them?


It's in French, so I think they're under the Plateau drop down menu. Then it's just drag and drop.
 
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paul clarke
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Many Thanks for sharing...brilliant work...will you be putting all this info together so that we can download it?
 
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Zachary Ruiz
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Once I playtest the "Suggested Groups" for a few of the scenarios I'll make a PDF containing the charts and the suggested groups. It's taking me a while since I'm trying to playtest and write up feedback on the characters I'm suggesting.

For now, here's what I've written about 4 player "In the Clutches of the Picts", where I went for theme rather than variety of characters.

In the Clutches of The Picts (4 Players) - (159 Points Overlord)

Group 1
Conan Mercenary (51) w/ Conan's Sword, Axe, and Leather Armor
Balthus (49) + Slasher (14) w/ Bossonian Bow
Savage Belit (46) w/ Pirate Saber and Parrying Dagger


Group 2
Conan Mercenary (51) w/ Conan's Sword, Axe, and Leather Armor
Balthus (49) + Slasher (14) w/ Bossonian Bow
Pallantides (45) w/ Two Handed Sword


For this scenario, speed and the ability to get damage across on enemies that have an Armor Rating of 3 (Snake and Zogar) is key. You almost -need- a heavy hitter with a red die melee attack. Especially if the Overlord either hides the Princess with the Snake or uses the Snake to block access to Zogar. Once you get stuck in and have spent a couple turns moving/fighting/etc, characters with less powerful attack skills will really struggle to push across damage fast enough. They don’t have the gems and the power/gem to succeed. So I strongly suggest Conan Mercenary (plus it fits thematically) or Conan Warlord if you want to give the players a larger advantage.

Taking the starting position of Shevatas, I’d go with Balthus and Slasher. They will serve as a Hadrathus analog, with a twist. Ranged attacks and good movement, roughly similar to the spells Haddy has. Slasher has Evasive and can take out a Pict Warrior on his own and has a decent chance at dealing a point of damage to the snake/Zogar. Use Balthus and his pup as your primary “investigators” who go looking for the princess.


And finally, replacing Hadrathus I’d suggest Savage Belit. She has Evasive (but still can’t carry the princess with it) and an above average attack so I’d use her to get around any blocking Warriors or the Snake and go after Zogar. Especially if the Snake is guarding the Princess, having solid attacks against both can really stretch the number of gems the Overlord has to add Guard dice.


I also tried Pallantides in place of Hadrathus(but only once) and found that while it was a narrow Overlord victory, that had more to do with me playing slightly poorly as the Heroes. Pallantides (starting at the bottom), found the Princess (randomized) in the first hut. Meanwhile, Conan (Merc flavor) and Balthus/Slasher got embroiled in a fight with the Snake who had burst out and was covering the door to Zogar Sag’s hut. I had Pallantides leave the Princess in the hut (since it would cost him more to move while he carried her) to go help his companions, and by the time they wore down the Snake and Zogar there wasn’t enough time to get back and grab her (I spawned 2 Warriors to get in the way as well).


I played these scenarios trying my best to win as both sides (IE using lots of gems on defense for blockers to slow down the heroes) and the Heroes were still able to win some of the games. I feel like these groups are balanced for a fun game.

I'll try to get to a couple more scenario's this weekend, but no promises yet.
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Arto Saari
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Thanks for this.

Having only played 2 scenarios I can tell that the hero/monster configuration is highly dependent on the scenario and related objectives.

Have you tried setting a more per scenario objective "requirement scoring"? For example, the scenario in which the heroes try to flee from the inn as prisoners, quick movement, evasion and manipulation are hero-side game making skills. If you had 3 x Shevatas on that scenario (theoretically) the overlord would have no chance at all.

In that sense, there's a score X for that scenario weighting speed, manipulation, evasion, minion fighting, boss fighting etc and hero contribution to those should be in balance. This could be easily in a scale of 1-5 per a factor not to make it too complex.

I would score the above scenario:
Speed: 5
Manipulation: 5
Evasion: 5
Minion fighting: 3
Boss fighting: 2
Appropriate skill use: 1
Dependency on spells: 3


For example. That tells me Shevatas is the guy for the job.

Spells are very difficulty in that regard as they are so complex by their nature of they do and how they impact the gameplay.
 
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Diego Montado
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Great job, keep at it!
 
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